I've backed Moyes this far inspite of all the critiscism but some of his decisions can be mind boggling and he really does not help himself. Not playing Kagawa, Janujaj or Fellani was silly. Selling Fabio when we obviously have full back issues. Not signing a proper midfielder at the beginning of the season even when players like Strootman and Luis Gustavo went for reasonable prices. Then in January not at least getting someone in on loan. I think defeats to Liverpool and City could force the board to act. Like someone says, we go forward slightly and then we go back further. I've always said he needs to be judged on a season's performance, nearly out of all cup competitions and in a poor position in the league. I think the Board may well act if the next few games are as poor as this one. Irrespective of the calibre of the squad, this group of players should be higher in the league and should have done better in the cup competitions then they have done so the board need to really make a decision on what they want to do.
Moyes So Far!
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I'm not an attorney nor familiar with labor laws and union agreements, but seems fairly dead-on Moyes would get a severance payment if fired.
Professional contracts. Coaches in various sports (and execs of companies) often get severance packages when fired from a contract versus resignation whereas resignation/retirement is at the behest of the employee, thus "walking away from further compensation" unless other clauses apply.
Unless there was some clause in the contract that allowed United the right to terminate Moyes without further compensation (things like illegal acts, disrepute, etc., are probably more legally enforced but simply fired for failure to perform), but I can't imagine how labor laws and/or union agreements would disallow severance payment.
I should add that Barthez got a payment to cancel out his contract after a failure to secure a transfer. Also think Bosnich received a tidy payment to feck off.
Nobody knows.
With contracts so lucrative I would be surprised if the lawyers writing the contracts didn't put a clause in place for termination of the contract. I put termination clauses in my contracts all the time and they are worth nothing, it's just reasons for termination.
Pretty much if the other party don't deliver what was requested, I'm not sure whether United requested the management services of Moyes or whether they requested the management services of Moyes to deliver a top four finish.
Do they usually exist? As far as Im aware they dont... fair enough though, I dont know much about the norms of contractual law in football.
I don't actually think Moyes is anywhere near being sacked.
The Glazers just sanctioned £37 for Mata few weeks ago!
We've gone over and over what's gone wrong so far, with the only debate being whether he's inherited a team of champions and just massively under performed with them, or the new revisionist angle that the whole squad is weak.
I'm sure the earliest we'd even hear of a sacking would be if we're messing around in 7th or 8th by Christmas.
The Glazers just sanctioned £37 for Mata few weeks ago!
We've gone over and over what's gone wrong so far, with the only debate being whether he's inherited a team of champions and just massively under performed with them, or the new revisionist angle that the whole squad is weak.
I'm sure the earliest we'd even hear of a sacking would be if we're messing around in 7th or 8th by Christmas.
I would imagine it depends what was requested of Moyes.
Did they request his management services or his management services to achieve a top four finish?
I would like to think Moyes would have promised a top four finish and this is legal to insert into a contract.
Either way the severance would be small compared to the £25m full payout.
We all laughed at the 7 year Pardew contract, but i'm sure that came with a bunch of clauses.
For clarity - I made the same comments last year aboiut lack of quality in the squad, and also that the main reasons we won the title were, in my opinion, Fergie's superhuman ability to win games regardless, RVP's goal tally and a other title rivals sacking managers and/or failing to find any consistency. That is (again., in my opinion) one of the weakest sides to win the PL in terms of quality in key areas. That, added to the fact that other sides have goitten their act together is one of the reasons we are where we are.
Regardless of whomever is managing this squad the issues we had last year in midfield perists, added to the issues we now have at the back. Whether Mourinho or Moyes (or whomever) is looking after this squad those issues remain and need to be addressed.
Fergie had the ability to get the best out of these players - perhaps Moyes doesnt, but given that he's miles behind Fergie in terms of career and experience I dont see how you can really criticise him for that. The club chose to go down the route of picking a manager to build for the future - not to come in for 5 years and move on. That may provioe top be the wrong decision, but I can see why they made that decision - probably advised by Sir Alex.
People can bang on about which other manager would get more out of them - clearly a Mourinho or Guardiola would. I suspect the discussion between Pep and Fergie last year covered whether he would want to take over. Perhaps he saw the size of the task and declined. Mourinho was my choice, but I dont think he would have this team top of the league either if I'm totally honest, although they would probably be doing better.
The bottom line for me - Moyes may prove to be a terrible choice - but he was brought in to do a job which was clearlyt going to take more than one tranfser window to replace ageing (albeit long serving and well respected) players. Once the Ferdinands, Vidic's, Giggs and Evra's are moved on, which has to happen at some stage soon, he's left with huge gaps to fill. The board havent done what they needed to to support him.
If the suggestion is that he needs to be sacked, and somebody else brought in then people are entitled to hold that opinion. But I dispute that there are manay managers out there who can achieve things with this squad, right now without serious investment. The money is evidently there so why wasnt this done last year? They could then have judged Moyes on the performances on the pitch alone - and not had to have one eye on what we might or might not be able to do in the summer when he needs to try and find 6 or 7 players to repalce the spine of the team.
I don't think we've had a top class team for quite some time now. I think the club have not prepared anywhere near well enough for a managerial change. I don't think SAF should be choosing his successor and a clean break would give any incoming manager more room to actually make their stamp on the club. That way, Fergie could be part of the board, but not really this hands on and this influential. We've had average players in some positions for years. We've not been anywhere near the best teams in Europe and Fergie acknowledged as much when he said after Barca toying with us the 2nd time around, that our aim should be to catch them. We haven't made any strides since he made that statement and we did dismantle a team that could have gone places about 5 years ago.
Keane was right in some respect, the Prem isn't as great as it's made out to be. The difference in technical ability between Prem teams (which only now has started to change with the advance of Swansea, Southampton, Liverpool and to some extent Everton) and continental teams is striking and our match up with Bilbao was the clearest example of that.
Fergie did try once for a few games to play a very high tempo, pressing game where it was quite gung ho and it worked, for a while. But we've got quite a lot of players who aren't comfortable on the ball, who are slow and one dimensional and therefore, do not really work in a variety of strategies.
I see our problems being complacency over the last years - despite winning domestically, our football has not been great and no one can deny that we could have been a lot more ambitious in terms of recruitment and style of play - inexperienced coaching staff, but not least, a manager who's completely out of his depth and has shown absolutely nothing remotely whatsoever to justify staying on in this capacity. Zero. Not once. Not even a passage of play that lasted 5 minutes.
What will the process be if there's a new manager appointed this summer, or next season? Is it Fergie's call? Or is it a group of people reviewing a shortlist of highly competent managers?
Keane was right in some respect, the Prem isn't as great as it's made out to be. The difference in technical ability between Prem teams (which only now has started to change with the advance of Swansea, Southampton, Liverpool and to some extent Everton) and continental teams is striking and our match up with Bilbao was the clearest example of that.
Fergie did try once for a few games to play a very high tempo, pressing game where it was quite gung ho and it worked, for a while. But we've got quite a lot of players who aren't comfortable on the ball, who are slow and one dimensional and therefore, do not really work in a variety of strategies.
I see our problems being complacency over the last years - despite winning domestically, our football has not been great and no one can deny that we could have been a lot more ambitious in terms of recruitment and style of play - inexperienced coaching staff, but not least, a manager who's completely out of his depth and has shown absolutely nothing remotely whatsoever to justify staying on in this capacity. Zero. Not once. Not even a passage of play that lasted 5 minutes.
What will the process be if there's a new manager appointed this summer, or next season? Is it Fergie's call? Or is it a group of people reviewing a shortlist of highly competent managers?
If @Empire is right and there is a clause like that it certainly makes sense to wait until it is activated. I just havent heard of these performance related clauses in manager contracts before. It sounds like wishful thinking to me. We gave him a 6 year contract as a sign of good faith and made a lot of noise about giving him time. A clause that demanded he achieve top 4 or could be sacked would fly in the face of all that, in which case, what was the point of it? Might as well have just given him a 3 year contract or whatever and renewed it as and when necessary. It reminds me of a gag someone made on here weeks ago about that 6 year contract, that it was like we were worried Real Madrid were going to come and snatch him from under our noses. It was never going to happen, the only reason to give him a contract like that was as a sign of faith and a commitment to him, long term. These performance-clauses would be completely inconsistent with everything else we know about these contracts.
Are these kinds of clauses normal? Do we know for a fact they exist in other managers' contracts?
Are these kinds of clauses normal? Do we know for a fact they exist in other managers' contracts?
Even if we have 200m, can we realistically spend it?
We've spent the last few years hoping FIFA come down hard on the likes of City and PSG.
We've spent the last few years hoping FIFA come down hard on the likes of City and PSG.
We're not going to spend £200 million this summer.
You sound quite certain.
Add in the wages, and it's probably fairly likely.
Already we've seen Fellaini, 27m, and perhaps £70k a week, and Mata, 37m and 100k a week. Just on pure estimates for those wages, and say both are 4 year deals, that's already 100m in total!!
I don't know about football contractual law either. There could be something specific in football contractual law making severance pay mandatory but even then it will be only a few million if related to under-performance. It won't be £25m or anywhere near that I wouldn't have thought.
Is the issue here that the squad needs rebuilding? I think almost every United fan accepts that the squad needs new, fresh blood in order to take it up to the next level. He should be doing better with this group of players. We have some amazing footballers who look hamstrung by his methods.
The issue for me stems from the fact that what he's trying to do isn't immediately obvious. How is he trying to get us to play?
Last night there was no game plan from what I could see. Players with usually fantastic technique have forgotten how to control a ball let alone pass one and when we did get it they were absolutely clueless in carving out chances. He seems so stubborn in changing what's in front of his eyes, no change of tactics or formation to counter what the opposition do and no focus on their weaknesses, rather a highlighting of our own. We're slow, tumescent and lack creativity (which isn't entirely Moyes' fault) but he's not addressing it like he should. For a manager who has travelled Europe "studying" coaching methods he looks like he hasn't a clue of how to adapt.
Last night was perhaps the same level of performance as we gave against Ajax once we'd been relegated to the Europa knock-outs. That was some of the worst football televised. And it preceded our absolute schooling by Bilbao. That was 2011-2012 season.
I'm not defending Moyes, as he's not got anything going for him. But I think as a club we lack ambition, the board lacks ambition. Appointing a manager who could improve us would have signaled that.
I think SAF was an absolutely outrageously brilliant manager. In almost every aspect. Not tactics and style though. That's the obvious improvement we could have made in appointing a new manager.
I'm not defending Moyes, as he's not got anything going for him. But I think as a club we lack ambition, the board lacks ambition. Appointing a manager who could improve us would have signaled that.
I think SAF was an absolutely outrageously brilliant manager. In almost every aspect. Not tactics and style though. That's the obvious improvement we could have made in appointing a new manager.
A contract is about protecting yourself without being unfair. Moyes could have turned out to be a revelation therefore a 6 year contract with a performance related clause would be better than a 3 year contract.
It's not a ridiculous request to achieve top four with a team of champions, it is perhaps unfair to ask him to win the league or achieve top four with Everton.
This happens in the real world, only thing preventing it is whether football have a specific rule against such clauses. Transfer fees come with performance related clauses so I have no reason to think termination of a contract or the severance package wouldn't either.
E.g. Rooney cost 20m but that would rise based on performance.
So surely Moyes severance package would scale down from the full £25m based on his performance.
Whether a clause could be inserted for termination at no cost depends on whether this by law would be considered unethical or not.
Either way, if sacked now unless he leaves by mutual consent or agrees a severance package we would pay £25m, if termination clauses exist this could be at most a few million.
It shouldn't matter. By now anyone with half a brain can see that he was the wrong choice, and United won't win anything with him in charge. The nightmare scenario is that he will hang on and spend a fortune in the summer, enough to achieve some kind of respectability and keep his job, with United flitting in and out of the top four for the next several years, and losing our place in the top echelon of the game.
The truth is, if we had Hardish teams in the group stage we wouldn't have got this far. Truly awful what's happened to our team, this isn't transitional period it's a disaster.
And believe me when I say this, he's here to stay for a few years yet.
And believe me when I say this, he's here to stay for a few years yet.
In the absence of the kind of clause you are talking about (which I have not heard about but will be interested to hear more about if there are examples of other managers having them, if it is normal practise) a severance package would include, as a minimum, the remaining basic pay that would have been earned over the duration of the contract, no? That was my understanding of the very basics of contracts. So he would get his annual salary multiplied by the remaining years left. Not a few million.
Of course if that clause exists that changes everything. But Id like to see some indication that it might. It seems like we are taking something we wish to be true, think should be true, and assuming on that basis that it is true.
Had a quick scout around and found this. Seems to suggest that sacked managers can expect to walk away very rich men. VERY rich men. And most of these guys didnt have contracts as long as Moyes'.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...nny-Dalglish-Roberto-Mancini-Roy-Hodgson.html
Regarding the NYSE rumours, wasn't the NYSE closed when the rumours surfaced?
The response will be interesting. I say interesting, what I mean is predictable. I fully expect the next fixture to be equally as fruitless for us and for us to look tactically identical then as we did last night and as we have the majority of the season. I also expect the reaction that's pretty much along the same lines; no acknowledgement of tactical responsibility.
Sure Moyes took 'blame' but only from the perspective of a leader is to blame for the failings of the team he leads, there's been no admission of tactical failures or error of judgement in team selection or approach to the game, just like there wasn't the last dozen times we've reached 'rock bottom' this season and nor will the be when it next happens. We'll just carry on with a manager 'surprised' at his own incompetence.
Sure Moyes took 'blame' but only from the perspective of a leader is to blame for the failings of the team he leads, there's been no admission of tactical failures or error of judgement in team selection or approach to the game, just like there wasn't the last dozen times we've reached 'rock bottom' this season and nor will the be when it next happens. We'll just carry on with a manager 'surprised' at his own incompetence.
I think there's a real chance we will sack him in the summer. Losing to Olympiakos in the CL and a bad run to the end of the season would probably clinch it.
IF we are going to do it, the board will be sounding replacements out behind closed doors.
IF we are going to do it, the board will be sounding replacements out behind closed doors.
Markets open in fifteen minutes. So technically yes they were closed.
True, listening to Moyes take responsibility is about the least gratifying thing imaginable as he isnt actually taking any responsibility for it at all. Its like being on the phone to someone in a call centre who is saying "I am so sorry sir" over and over again, to the point you feel sure they are retarded and have no clue what you are talking about but have been told to just be soothing and apologetic.
Yes, which is kind of the point with a stock exchange rumour. Announcements likely to affect share prices generally happen immediately before or after the trading day.
If you wait until an announcement is made it isn't a rumour any more. If this rumour had been real (or "with immediate effect") then it would mean it got leaked last night. More likely though, this one got made up by a drunk United fan in a NYSE friendly bar after the match.
The most frustrating thing for me about Moyes is that he seems to have done little to address the situation. The situation being our poor play. It was obvious that Valencia and Young were not good enough last season, so playing them again is bizarre. Cleverley has been pretty terrible all season also. So those three making up 75% of our middle four was always asking for trouble. Last night was not their first poor performance, they have been consistently poor all season. I'm beginning to think that RVP and Rooney just won't be able to play together in an effective team. I am not doubting either of them or their individual brilliance they just never seem to gel as we imagine. Popular to contrary belief I blame Rooney more than RVP, I thought RVP showed glimpses of promise last night / tried to initiate something whereas Rooney, like he has been in his last three games was awful. I would drop one and let Mata/Kagawa play in the middle next game with one or the other up top.
Moyes has to try something new rather than continuing with his one step forward, two steps back approach. He was honest with the media for the first time last night and admitted that the performance was unacceptable. Consequently I assume he will make changes for the next game, to both the personnel and his archaic tactics.
Moyes has to try something new rather than continuing with his one step forward, two steps back approach. He was honest with the media for the first time last night and admitted that the performance was unacceptable. Consequently I assume he will make changes for the next game, to both the personnel and his archaic tactics.
jojojo, smasher of hopes.
Precisely it's not responsibility he's taking at all it's just blame he thinks he should shoulder. He hasn't said (or if continuing shite performances are anything to go by - hasn't thought) that maybe it's what he does, the teams he selects and the instructions he gives them, that are to blame. Rather it's the call centre "we're sorry for your inconvenience, Sir" taking of responsibility - which is actually taking none at all.
Was what I wanted to hear until you smashed my hopes with your last sentence.
Oh cruel mistress of fate.
So if Moyes contract has a clause that is based on performance does anyone know exactly how much he will owe us in May ?
Daily Telegraph ~ Manchester United have little hope in second leg, David Moyes has turned Theatre of Dreams into Poundland
PS) I quite like Poundland, great value. Although I prefer the 99p store.
PS) I quite like Poundland, great value. Although I prefer the 99p store.
£356.6m. We signed Moyes as part of an elaborate plan to pay off the debt.
Contracts have to be fair, so in terms of AVB achieving top four with chelsea is a fair request but not with spurs, either way both sacked him before such was mathematically impossible.
Di Matteo - the same.
Jose - the same.
Scolari - the same.
Ranieri - the same.
Grant - the same.
(See a pattern?)
Dalglish and Hodgson - Kenny finished 8th, so the same level as his predecessor. Roy left in January so would not have been afforded the time needed.
Mancini - He finished second, performance related has to be fair and so top four was achieved. Asking him to win the league is unreasonable.
Abromovich, the main person used in that article as manager's leaving as very rich men. Enough said.
Rafael Benitez left in June with a 4m pay off http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ears-charge--Spaniard-accepts-4m-pay-off.html
From what I've read he had four years left on his contract at £5m per year entitling him to £20m full pay off. Media speculated at the time his low pay off was due to his poor performance however nothing was confirmed. It could have been just about anything.
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