Moyes got the job based on mastering the art of preventing spankings against big boys at everton.....painful thing is that he has no clue how to spank vastly inferior teams and tries to play 1980's hoofball as his only trick to attack even though we have some of the best attackers in the game...no wonder rooneys stomach turned when he heard moyes was taking the utd hot seat.....I think moyes will get it right but I think the agonizing 3 or 4 years it will take him to get it right will not have been worth the suffering
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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This is pretty close to how I view the situation. We only need to witness how many of our passing manouvers start from the back and go side to side and eventually wide. Why? Because our midfielders simply do not want the ball. When they do get it, they can't wait to get rid of it, to anyone.
Ferguson created this mess, but he did it for a reason. This midfield strategy was built to complement Ronaldo, and it did so brilliantly. If you get Ronaldo the ball as often as possible, you're probably going to win the match, and Carrick and Scholes were the perfect tandem to do that. It became even further ingrained in the Ronaldo, Rooney & Tevez season, and then he tried to move away from that slightly with the Berbatov signing, but by then the system was well and truly integrated and Berbatov was the wrong player for the job we wanted him to do.
What we have seen since is no midfield signings, the loss of Scholes and a new forward line that suffer mainly from not being Ronaldo. Instead we are left with a midfield that only know how to sit and spray it wide, and a team with a massive hole where a number 10 should be. The simple solution should be to fill the number 10 hole, but we've tried it with 3 different class players (Rooney, Kagawa & Mata) and it doesn't work. Until we find central midfielders that can dominate their opposite numbers and move forward as a unit (and the centre-backs are equally culpable here) then we will continue to play predictable and dull football.
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Have you seen anything in Moyes 11 years with Everton and 8 months with United to hope that he will transform us into a top side playing attractive football? His Everton side was known to score few but also conceec even fewer goals. Our poor attacking game does not stem poor personel. Its the system Moyes wants to implement.
This is a very plausible theory. Certainly fits with what Fletcher recently said about what the CMs at United have come to expect as their brief.
In the post-Ronaldo era we've maintained our success through a combination of factors, including a season where Rooney couldn't stop scoring, Nani and Valencia playing out of their skin and intermittent excellence from Berbatov and Tevez - all in the context of consistent defensive excellence from the best back four and keeper in the league.
Once the form of our wingers dipped and our back began to show their age (with all of their replacements not yet as accomplished) the whole house of cards has started to come down. The only real mystery is how on earth we won the league by such a margin last season. Having Carrick and RvP both fit and on form for the whole season definitely helped but I think history will define it as a trophy won thanks to the sheer force or will of our manager and the way this permeated through our whole team. In terms of our approach to the game and style of football I see very little difference between this season and last.
Its more complicated than that and shouldn't be blamed on Sir Alex, and especially not on Ronaldo. When Ronaldo was here we still actually had players that generally tried to go box-to-box. The last time you could genuinely say that about United was when Fletch ran the show in 2009/10 before his illness and for that brief period at the start of 2011/12 when we paired Cleverley and Anderson.
After Ronaldo left Sir Alex tried to change the way the team played and at the start of 2011/12 he thought he'd found a new formula: We played a high back line, our centre midfielders closed down high up the pitch, and in Young and Nani we had two widemen cutting in off the flanks to support our forwards. Problem is that the Boss could only achieve this by relying on youth. Vida and Ferdinand weren't quick enough to play high up anymore, Carrick and Scholes not mobile enough to push forward. It was all Evans, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Ando etc. But after the 1-6 against City the Boss decided we were too gung-ho and didn't have enough 'experience' in the big games and so went back to the old guard.
The experienced players Sir Alex began to depend on were too old and too slow to get around. To compensate for their lack of mobility we let our first choice the centre halves and centre midfielders sit deep. The full backs would now get forward to support the wingers and overload wide areas to allow us to attack, and Carrick and Scholes would compensate for their lack of legs by pinging long accurate balls to them. The system worked defensively because even when Evra and Rafa went forward our centre midfield wouldn't, which meant a midfielder could also come across to cover an out of place full back. The wingers and full backs would get us goals by picking up the long balls from deep and crossing or cutting back to the centre forwards for them to score.
Last year though, Sir Alex phased Scholes out of the team and let Cleverley take over for all the big games which began a shift away from this direct style of football again. Cleverley couldn't deliver the long accurate passes with the consistency of Scholes, which meant the midfield needed to move forward more. This led to us having to outscore everyone in the first few months of last season as we conceeded with alarming regularity. Sir Alex's response to this was effectively say 'to hell with it, lets outscore them then' and to bring Phil Jones into midfield during the really big games as a stop gap. This made Carrick look better than previously as he was given the chance to pick up the ball a little higher up the pitch than at any time since Ronaldo left.
The emphasis on attack we saw last year from Sir Alex has been discontined by Moyes. Instead, Moyes depeneded on the older players and then brought in Fellaini which aggrevated the lack of mobility in midfield. With the midfield not getting forward it meant there was no choice but to rely on the wingers and full backs even more than last year. But this has led us to become more predictable and more likely to be outscored. Without a Scholes to hit early cutting passes forward we havent been able to get our opponents on the backfoot when we go wide. Instead we have to bring it forward slowly meaning our opponents are already in their shape when we get it wide. Plus, our deep centre midfield means many second balls get picked up by our opponents. Kieran Richardson nearly scored from this at Old Trafford last Sunday and he isn't the only one: We're getting hit on the break over and over and over.
I am right there with you. That article say so much about what I feel right now. Then again there are so many voices saying what I feel, not the ones that have from the start not wanted Moyes but, many that have been trying so hard to give him a chance.
It all comes down to see what is on the pitch and on the pitch there is no discernible plan. Even if he doesn't have the players to carry out the plan to perfection, we should be seeing at least the current flock failing at whatever it is. That's assuming what we are seeing is not the plan he has in mind, if to all that is sacred, please please get rid right now.
On a separate note - many have said one of Moyes positives this season has been handling of Januzaj. When Mata came in he rightfully got a bit of a rest but, his continued exclusion from the starting line up tells me that he didn't handle him right, he just had no one else that was inspirational so used him. Now that he has Mata, Rooney, RVP - he seems to have gone back to a mindset Januzaj is too young and needs to be given time. The boy needs to be on the field from the start, plain and simple
I generally found Everton to be a pretty decent team to watch under Moyes.
@#07 why you put fellaini in the equation when he played only 8 games?
anyway i think you put forward some valid points which imo it all boils down to not replacing our ageing players. Our best defender is vidic,our best midfielder is carrick while our best forward is rvp. All three of them missed a considerable no of games this season. We cannot continue to rely on these 3 players
anyway i think you put forward some valid points which imo it all boils down to not replacing our ageing players. Our best defender is vidic,our best midfielder is carrick while our best forward is rvp. All three of them missed a considerable no of games this season. We cannot continue to rely on these 3 players
This isnt an opinion shared by any everton fan. It wasnt until last season that he started to try to play a more attacking game.
Why Fellaini? Because he was clearly the wrong midfielder to buy if we wanted to move away from playing a deep back line and direct balls wide. What we needed in the summer was a genuine box to box midfielder. Despite a £27.5 million outlay we still need that player.
It's not a question simply of not replacing our experienced players but who we choose to replace them with. We should be moving back towards what Sir Alex tried in early 2011/12. Remember how close our front four were when Nani equalised in the Community Shield? Not simply bringing players in that highlight the weaknesses we have, or signing players and forcing them into a failing system.
Hmmm. We're not going to sit around and wait 9 years to start to play attractive(ish) football. 6 years will be fine though. Thank god for that contract.
i don't want to go into all this again but i m convinced that we re paying for our failures in transfer market during last summer.
not even 6 months
The way we play is really a bit odd and counter productive.
Really hope Moyes at least tries different things in the remainder of the season. We've not got much to play for anyway. Would be a real shame if we keep playing in that manner doe the rest of the season.
Kagawa's work. After watching this, Moyes' comments about us being unlucky take on an entirely new meaning. We've squandered so many goals this year by way of poor finishing and bad luck.
Great crosser of the ball, as is Mata. Why can't we have them as inverted wingers at the moment?
I'd love to us try that.
Yep, nearly all of his crosses were on target. He seems like a good option on the left.
This shows how youtube clips can prove anything.
The overall sight of Kagawa on the left wing hasn't been that great at all, yet looking at that video it's like he's been immense!
Merely a snap shot of him crossing well and our finishing poorly. Nothing more.
Some shocking misses there. Although almost all of them were in CL games, where the results were good enough as it is.
Moyes does seem to have used Kagawa as a CL specialist. Makes sense he'd feel more at home in those games and he'a generally done very well. If only he could translate that into PL form. Be interesting to see if he starts against Olympiakos. I reckon he will.
For me, we'll only change our style of play once Moyes inevitably gets the sack. How long till then is the real question.
Let's just hope the new man coming in actually has a philosophy and can change our system and transform our performances from this dross we've become accustomed to over the last couple years.
If Moyes had come in and done well straight away people would say he had it easy, all he had to do was leave things as they are. To ensure he got the credit for our forthcoming glory he had to tear the old team down, destroy morale, leave us broken, humiliated and almost without hope.
He can't have that. He whispers into the players' ears that they are worthless, useless, that without SAF they are nothing and there is no point in them even trying, as they sob. He spreads rumours about them to discredit them in the eyes of other players, so every one of them is convinced the rest of the squad blame them personally for our plight. Things get progressively worse.
But then we move into phase 2 of The Plan. He starts picking sensible teams, he tells the players how pleased he is with them, maybe he was wrong. He tells them they are playing like winners, like the champions they once were. He suggests they apply themselves, compose themselves when taking a shot, crossing or passing the ball. He holds a clear the air meeting to demonstrate all the personal issues in the camp are simple misunderstandings. Old friendships flourish once more. Belief floods back to the team.
They start playing beautiful football, sweeping opponents aside. A great team has been built, cry the fans and the media. Not SAF's team. We all saw that team burn, it is dead. This is Moyes' team. He built it from scratch. He must be a genius for creating a thing of such beauty. He is, indeed, a great manager, worthy of being SAF's successor.
He can't have that. He whispers into the players' ears that they are worthless, useless, that without SAF they are nothing and there is no point in them even trying, as they sob. He spreads rumours about them to discredit them in the eyes of other players, so every one of them is convinced the rest of the squad blame them personally for our plight. Things get progressively worse.
But then we move into phase 2 of The Plan. He starts picking sensible teams, he tells the players how pleased he is with them, maybe he was wrong. He tells them they are playing like winners, like the champions they once were. He suggests they apply themselves, compose themselves when taking a shot, crossing or passing the ball. He holds a clear the air meeting to demonstrate all the personal issues in the camp are simple misunderstandings. Old friendships flourish once more. Belief floods back to the team.
They start playing beautiful football, sweeping opponents aside. A great team has been built, cry the fans and the media. Not SAF's team. We all saw that team burn, it is dead. This is Moyes' team. He built it from scratch. He must be a genius for creating a thing of such beauty. He is, indeed, a great manager, worthy of being SAF's successor.
You've been drinking, haven't you? Me too. A fine Chateauneuf De Pape. The missus has fecked off to a friend's house, so I can crack open another bottle and flick between MUTV (Fergie's 26 Best Signings - nice) and a fishing show I recorded (The Fishing Adventurer - niche)
Anyway, opened this thread to make a point about Everton under Moyes. Most people agree they played some nice stuff last season but this is usually accompanied with the tacit implication that they were dull as ditchwater for the 10 years before that.
The thing is, that can only be for one of two reasons. Either Moyes finally managed to create a squad on a shoe-string budget that had enough talent to be a bit more expansive. Or his own football philosophy changed and he began to favour a more fluid and attacking approach.
In either scenario, this bodes well for what he should be able to achieve at United. Obviously, this hasn't happened yet. But we should be reassured by the precedent that Everton set in 2012/13. A leopard can change it's spots, after all.
What's been argued is he's still going to offer more than Young and Valencia when he plays out wide, even though it's implicit in his limited appearances he hasn't performed to the level he can. And that's not considering he gets given 65 minutes once every 3 weeks to show what he can do. If we gave him a run of 5/6 games on the left starting now, at the very least he'll come out of it having proved he's deserved a hell of a lot more match time than he's had this season.
The bolded part is the key, though. Why hasn't it happened yet given that he has better players than at Everton? If we knew that we might, or might not, begin to feel more optimistic. If anything, the football has got worse since the autumn, not better.
He's had loads of opportunities. The "65 minutes every 3 weeks" stuff is nonsense. Definitely looked more at home playing against continental opposition though (with CL referees). Which is were all the best stuff in that video takes place.
If we believe it is the first reason, then it would make sense that he's not replicated what he had at Everton with superior United players mainly because we have a complete mismatch of styles.
We have Rooney, who is undroppable until he signs his contract, whose first ball will be out to the wings. We then have Kagawa and Mata who are not wingers but the #10 role is occupied by Rooney so they have to play there out of circumstance. We lack the midfield to support a quicker game but we also lack wingers who can produce consistently so the midfield lumping the ball out wide does nothing. Finally we have the problem of both Carrick and RVP playing semi-poor so they cannot dig us out of ditches.
Make no mistake, the Moyes we have seen who throws on 6 forwards is not the real Moyes. This is a man who is shitting himself in the fear of being called a defensive coach which isn't what Manchester United need.
Oh ffs, how does this man still have his job? Is there any other job on this world where someone will be kept this long despite the sheer level of incompetence he's shown? He's done pretty much nothing right so far, so why is he here?
Get him out and get in a new man who'll prepare for the summer window and add/subtract what's needed. We've collected 9 points in 8 games this year. That's bad form for the likes of spurs and everton let alone man united. That is a clear indication that we're going nowhere slowly. We've spent 60million quid+ on players we could've done without. Our football is nowhere close to being productive, his tactics are rubbish and he's getting the best out of no one including the ground manager.
This sort of foolishness is absurd to be honest. Trying to prove that we do things the 'right' way. Who gave us that devine right to look down on basically the whole football world like that? Maybe, just maybe most of the managers that were gotten rid of were gotten rid of cause they weren't getting it done?
We're competing against a Mou coached chelsea, an arab toy, and a wenger led arsenal with David fecking Moyes! surely someone will do something about this desperate state of affairs.
Get him out and get in a new man who'll prepare for the summer window and add/subtract what's needed. We've collected 9 points in 8 games this year. That's bad form for the likes of spurs and everton let alone man united. That is a clear indication that we're going nowhere slowly. We've spent 60million quid+ on players we could've done without. Our football is nowhere close to being productive, his tactics are rubbish and he's getting the best out of no one including the ground manager.
This sort of foolishness is absurd to be honest. Trying to prove that we do things the 'right' way. Who gave us that devine right to look down on basically the whole football world like that? Maybe, just maybe most of the managers that were gotten rid of were gotten rid of cause they weren't getting it done?
We're competing against a Mou coached chelsea, an arab toy, and a wenger led arsenal with David fecking Moyes! surely someone will do something about this desperate state of affairs.
He's started about 35% of our games, never gets a consistent run in the team and gets subbed off early in those appearances.
I don't think enough's been made of Pogue's admission that he tapes fishing programmes.
Up until this point he has had three periods of four or more EPL games in the row, when he did not feature at all (neither as starter nor as sub). On top of that he was shifted back and forth between the LW and AM role, which is far from ideal for a player who needs to find his place in the team. Find him a role, stick with it and give him the necessary game time to apadt. That or let him go.
In terms of the CL games, the different refereeing may have played a minor role, but the main reason, why Kagawa could perform on a different level was that one major problem under Moyes did not impact your overall performance there as much as in the EPL. I´m talking about your insufficent amount of off the ball movement and the static set up you stick with.
In the CL you did not really have to create space through movement, it was granted to you by your opposition. You played a Leverkusen side, which had way too much respect due to a long lasting mentality problem against major international competition. This led to the two worst performances of the season. Next was Donetsk, a team that lost 3/4 of their backbone (Fernandinho, Willian, Mkhitaryan) over the last year and could not compensate that, although they did put in an effort at home (also because of a strong perfomance of the last lead player Srna), which made you struggle rather quickly. Last was Sociebad, a team which lost only one lead player in the summer with the CM Illaramendi. Problem is, that this guy was by far their most influential and important player in the last season. The balancer and organizer of the team. Without him they lost most of their structure in their play.
In five of the six games, your opponent failed to tighten spaces and put enough active pressure on you. This is something that most EPL sides could do, because they reacted to your predictability of your game play accordingly. This will obviously change in the next stages of the competition and I´m pretty sure that your lack of variety, creativity and movement will become the bane of your campaign. Maybe not against Piräus, but in the quarter finals you will very likely face a team, which will be neither scared to the bones nor lack the ability to pressure you.
Yea, I foresee atleast 20 another retarded topics and hundreds of stupid posts to start with.
You're worried by all the wrong things. How about thinking of what's causing all those 'stupid' posts and 'retarded' topics? All this outcry is simply caused by people witnessing a man destroy something they love. What you expect them to do? Sing kumbayaa while preeching 'give him time' in the back round?
Stop being repetitive with continuous bullshit being spewed in every thread would be a decent start.
I think that Cina highlighted the problem in Mou thread. Mou's bullying Wenger, can't even enjoy it because 'OMG WE HAVE MOYES
' brigade jumps in. Well thank feck for reminding that in every thread possible.Despite the mess Moyes has made of the prem campaign by dropping points to mugs like West Brom, Newcastle and Fulham, we've somehow cruised along nicely in CL action.
If we make it to the CL semis and climb up to fifth, would a reappraisal of Moyes be in order?
If we make it to the CL semis and climb up to fifth, would a reappraisal of Moyes be in order?
Not for me.
o
It depends, 4th was minimum requirement though.
However, if we saw a mass improvement in our play then I believe he would. I was encouraged by his frustration on the touch line during the last moments of the Arsenal game, so maybe he has turned a corner. Stranger things have happened.
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