Moyes is clearly unsuitable to manage a club like United. The discussion of giving him more time is moot.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
- Status
SAF said the key to his tenure was delegation, delegation, delegation. Maybe it's possible to almost cover everything at Everton, though I doubt it
The thing that's keeping me onside with Moyes is that somewhere, in the back of my head, I'm convinced the people who run Manchester United must be cleverer than me. They must be. They must know more. They live it everyday. It's their jobs too. They absolutely undeniably MUST! (not M.U.S.T)
I keep going back to that video of Harry Redknapp defending a teenage boyband Frank Lampard. That little bit of viral gold that seemed to say, definitively: "Those on the front line DO know more than the fans." That keeps me warm at night. keeps me sane. Because there just HAS to be something else to the Moyes appointment, something hidden, something magic, something blatant yet unbeknownst to us leyman mortals, because absolutely EVERYONE predicted this.
Every average joe, every cab driver, every publican, every phone-in junkie and keyboard monkey had some kind of inkling of this would happen. Many United fans convinced themselves he was a perfect appointment when it was too late to go back but few were furiously keen before hand. Everyone not associated with Manchester United thought it was bizarre, even Everton fans. EVEN EVERTON FANS!
From the moment he was announced there were jokes about him Evertonising us, finishing mid-table, and buying Fellaini. There were countless people queuing up to say he was a boring, defensive, negative manager and not remotely in keeping with our attacking ethos. It was known to every man and his dog that he'd never beaten a top 4 club away. Those "I Have No Idea What I'm Doing" memes sprung up on his first day in the job. And low and behold, it's all happened. In ghastly slow motion. In an almost Spitting Image parody of itself.
IT WAS SO BLEEDING OBVIOUS!
And yet for something so bleeding obvious to be ignored, unappreciated, unresearched, then approved, sanctioned and rubber stamped by everyone in power at Manchester United? (MANCHESTER UNITED!!)....I just...I just can't see it. Or at least can't accept it. So I'm clinging to this morsel of logic that says there must be something else going on. That he has to have talked with Fergie about gearing towards a brilliant, fluid attacking style of play, but that for some baffling and unknown reason he hasn't been able to implement, or even begin to try and implement it thus far. That it really is just some kind of mystical loss of form that's seen the standards sink so low. That his head scratching substitutions and starting line-ups are indeed part of an unlikely ploy to give everyone a fair crack of the whip with absolutely no regard to the form or results of this season.
And I have to try and convince myself of that. Because the alternative is too ridiculous to contemplate.
I keep going back to that video of Harry Redknapp defending a teenage boyband Frank Lampard. That little bit of viral gold that seemed to say, definitively: "Those on the front line DO know more than the fans." That keeps me warm at night. keeps me sane. Because there just HAS to be something else to the Moyes appointment, something hidden, something magic, something blatant yet unbeknownst to us leyman mortals, because absolutely EVERYONE predicted this.
Every average joe, every cab driver, every publican, every phone-in junkie and keyboard monkey had some kind of inkling of this would happen. Many United fans convinced themselves he was a perfect appointment when it was too late to go back but few were furiously keen before hand. Everyone not associated with Manchester United thought it was bizarre, even Everton fans. EVEN EVERTON FANS!
From the moment he was announced there were jokes about him Evertonising us, finishing mid-table, and buying Fellaini. There were countless people queuing up to say he was a boring, defensive, negative manager and not remotely in keeping with our attacking ethos. It was known to every man and his dog that he'd never beaten a top 4 club away. Those "I Have No Idea What I'm Doing" memes sprung up on his first day in the job. And low and behold, it's all happened. In ghastly slow motion. In an almost Spitting Image parody of itself.
IT WAS SO BLEEDING OBVIOUS!
And yet for something so bleeding obvious to be ignored, unappreciated, unresearched, then approved, sanctioned and rubber stamped by everyone in power at Manchester United? (MANCHESTER UNITED!!)....I just...I just can't see it. Or at least can't accept it. So I'm clinging to this morsel of logic that says there must be something else going on. That he has to have talked with Fergie about gearing towards a brilliant, fluid attacking style of play, but that for some baffling and unknown reason he hasn't been able to implement, or even begin to try and implement it thus far. That it really is just some kind of mystical loss of form that's seen the standards sink so low. That his head scratching substitutions and starting line-ups are indeed part of an unlikely ploy to give everyone a fair crack of the whip with absolutely no regard to the form or results of this season.
And I have to try and convince myself of that. Because the alternative is too ridiculous to contemplate.
Last edited:
I did read it, and what he said was we have several players who are world class but "we're not quite there yet"
How would the players see that, players who had won a hell of a lot of trophies. Some guy who's no experience in the Champions league, telling players who have won it that they're not good enough? Further, why say it, what's he to gain from it apart from using it as an excuse when we get knocked out.
You mention the point of losing an 8 point lead, but when you look at it properly it was misfortunate rather than players being mentally soft, let's not forget that the same players went out and won the league at a walk the season after, is that also mentally soft?
Apologies if I missed any points you raised, I'm on my phone.
Link to De Gea, best one I can find anyway.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26152537
@Mockney It's as if his appointment came from a divine power that couldn't be questioned and thus goes against all logic.
quite a good post, which is quite close to how i am thinking
But even that is bonkers! That Sir Alex Ferguson, the greatest British football manager of all time. A man who knows more about football than every seat filling pleb at Old Trafford combined. A man with Manchester United tattooed across his heart with a lead drenched scalpel would just casually discard his throne and toss his crown to one of his mates, purely for being a bit competent and a lot Scottish, without realising the blatant, obvious, eye scratchingly baffling unsuitability of him!
He just can't be as ball itchingly unsuitable as he seems? It makes no sense! And yet so far all he's done is prove every single one of his unsuitable credentials in the manner of a very unsubtle BBCThree comedy about them.
Last edited:
I think...there was an element of hope involved rather than certainty. I recall SAF describing Moyes as a 'good manager'; not a great or potentially great one. It could be argued that Sir Alex became rather sentimental about some things as he neared the end, and part of this could be his desire to give Moyes his 'big chance', instead of doing what might be more pragmatic & recommending a 'dead cert' success.
Or Fergie simply just fecked up big time (similar to Young's transfers when everyone and his dog thought that it will be a big failure).
I like your version more and I hope you're right. Next year hopefully he'll make the transformation from Sam Allardyce to Pep Guardiola. But, I just can't see it, regardless how much I would like to see that happening. The point that everybody (except SAF and IrwinWasTheKing, maybe another 2 or three persons) thought that he will be a massive failure (before it was clear that he is getting appointed, the next day people accepted it and started thinking that maybe there is something on him that we don't see, or probably saying a lie plenty ot times in hope that they'll eventually start believeing it) says a lot. Fans are not geniuses and aren't smarter than Fergie when it comes to football, but if the majority of football fans think the same thing, then it is very possible that they are right.
@Mockney
Yeah, that hidden magic thing. I've tried to believe in that. That somehow, he's a mastermind who'll prove to be an absolutely inspired appointment. It requires less mind-bending to assume everyone is fallible, SAF and the rest of the board included.
Yeah, that hidden magic thing. I've tried to believe in that. That somehow, he's a mastermind who'll prove to be an absolutely inspired appointment. It requires less mind-bending to assume everyone is fallible, SAF and the rest of the board included.
To be fair, Moyes also omitted the need for a world class manager to compete in the Champions League to suit his agenda so he can't complain too much about their omissions.
@Mockney Furthermore the idea that we appointed someone who seems to be learning what it's like to manage a big club while on the job blows my mind. At this point in our team's history how is this acceptable regardless of what Fergie saw in him? Do other massive corporations hire this way? No, and there is a reason for that.
Maybe Fergie was just an evil old sod after all, and he knew Moyes would fail and that everyone would ramble on about how amazing it proved Fergie was.
damn you Fergie...
damn you Fergie...
What did he actually say about de gea? The BBC article just says he highlighted de Gea's mistake against Sunderland which denied us a place in the final, which isn't true at all. If de gea didnt let it in, we win 1-0 but would still have had to go to extra time. If we'd been winning 2-0 it would've made sense.
@Sally Cinnamon
If the quotes were real - and they've now been removed - he said something akin to: We'd be in a cup final now were it not for de Gea's mistake, who's otherwise had a very good season for us...
I don't understand why the story has been modified
and yes, you're right. the reason we're not in that final is because we screwed up big time, in both legs
If the quotes were real - and they've now been removed - he said something akin to: We'd be in a cup final now were it not for de Gea's mistake, who's otherwise had a very good season for us...
I don't understand why the story has been modified
and yes, you're right. the reason we're not in that final is because we screwed up big time, in both legs
Yeah, I've not seen any actual quote. Strange.
Moyes was going on in the pre-match interview about how 1-0 will be enough to get to extra time.. He must exude confidence and belief to the players.
It was in the context of his 'bad luck'
So he said something like De Gea has been brilliant, but then he makes a mistake like that and we could be in a cup final therefore I am unlucky.
Occam's razor, lads. The man doesn't know what he's doing.
I'd love to think Fergie has some kind of crystal ball but judging from his autobiography, it really does seem like he handed the keys to the kingdom to one of his Scottish mates.
I'd love to think Fergie has some kind of crystal ball but judging from his autobiography, it really does seem like he handed the keys to the kingdom to one of his Scottish mates.
So true. Nice one.
Interested to see how he sets us up tonight. The result is kind of meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but there is pressure to perform and come away with a result having had such an abysmal 2014 so far.
I actually think his coaching staff are a major problem, if he had staff with real pedigree they would be a major source of help for him. I don't think this lot are any help at all. I don't particularly have a problem with Chris Wood as I think De Gea is still as good as ever and I don't think it would help him to have yet another change. The rest are not good enough.
Even my 7.5 year old understood the insanity in Moyes comments about keeping on doing things the same way. Right now he is learning to play the game and he knows if he tries the same dribbling move the defender is going to know it and he has to vary things up - he pointed this out to me.
It was really funny just reading a few different articles and pointing out to him how Moyes keeps on going on about keeping on doing things and our luck has to change. I explained the Einstein definition of insanity with the example of if you keep drawing a circle, you can't expect to get a square - would be insane to but, in football, there are variables but, ultimately if the defenders know what you are going to do then it's easy. You know what he says to me - yeah if we keep crossing the ball all they are going to do is kick it or head it away, or the goalkeeper is going come catch it.
If a kid can grasp the madness of repeating something that just isn't working, surely Moyes and co should. To just expect our luck to change is so disturbing, we need to play our part in making that luck change by improving our play.
It was really funny just reading a few different articles and pointing out to him how Moyes keeps on going on about keeping on doing things and our luck has to change. I explained the Einstein definition of insanity with the example of if you keep drawing a circle, you can't expect to get a square - would be insane to but, in football, there are variables but, ultimately if the defenders know what you are going to do then it's easy. You know what he says to me - yeah if we keep crossing the ball all they are going to do is kick it or head it away, or the goalkeeper is going come catch it.
If a kid can grasp the madness of repeating something that just isn't working, surely Moyes and co should. To just expect our luck to change is so disturbing, we need to play our part in making that luck change by improving our play.
The press have largely been lenient with Moyes considering some of the crap other managers have had to put up with.
The 21 points question is also a fair one considering Moyes has overseen such a sharp decline in form. Im guessing he was prickly because he knows that the question made a valid criticism.
What is most worrying is that Moyes seems to think that we are playing good football.
There's noway he does, he thinks we're doing enough to win, which was probably the case against Fulham. He's not a complete fool, he can't honestly believe we're playing good football.
I agree we have been doing enough to win some games. We have lost games because of lack of concentration at crucial times. Are we playing good football, not at all. I don't think he thinks that either. It will be interesting to see how Rene sets up against Liverpool tonight, will he do the same or was he just trying to stick the boot in on Sunday?
do we think a bottom half finish would see him off?
No, he's here until next season. What's another few losses this season anyway? If we're not sacking him for seventh or eight we shouldn't be sacking him for thirteenth or fourteenth.
No, no and no.
He's here to stay for the foreseeable, you have to accept that and hope he turns it around. It's clear the club are going to let him rebuild the team, they wouldn't do that if they had no trust in him.
He's said it on numerous occasions now.
That we're playing good football? He can't have, surely? He can't have said the way we're playing is how he wants us to.
Ofcourse he's said it. He even talked about wingplay being in the DNA of Manchester United. Why say that if we wants to change it?
great post, because everything you say about everyone thinking the same thing is pretty much correct, although there were quite a lot of pundits, who also know quite a lot about the game, who thought it was actually a very good choice. However, as with other huge companies, global co-orporations, sometimes mistakes are made about the guy in charge, it's just life.
I think what troubles me, is the way he was told. I mean it felt so...what....amateurish? If that is the right word. Fergie comes knocking on Moye's door on a Sunday...Moyes thinking he wants one of his players...then gets told "you're the next manager of manchester utd". There was no interview with him grilling him about his thoughts, plans...insights....etc etc...it was just....right...you're next. Just seemed all a bit odd when thinking about what a global business united is now...
I don't know..I just how you are right Mockney..I really do. Perhaps there is some dark windowless room in the bowels of Old Trafford where a cunning plan has been hatched...
I don't think Moyes believes we're playing good football. I still maintain he isn't the man for the job, as most of you know, but he's not the complete moron some of you paint him to be. He is a good manager.
Actually no.
The only thing that would see him off would be relegation...
We are about to be in the bizarre scenario that actually saved rodgers last year.
The are certain milestones that would maybe get you sacked ass manager of a big club. First is a side capable of winning title fails to... like mancini and city, or chelsea and mourinho mark 1.
Then, there is failure of a top side to get top 4. See harry at spurs for example.
The next 'step down'... is where? The psychological shock of finishing 2nd instead of first....or 5th instead of 4th is surprisingly greater than finishing 8/9th/10th instead of 5th. We are just in the 'also rans' section of the league.
So if moyes will survive not finishing 4th which I think he will, there's actually not much risk to his job if we don't finish above 10th for example, as there isnt anything worthy of note between there and 5th place.
Only thing now that would twist owners arms into firing would be the manner of defeats or some massive player revolt
Well good football to him could mean doing the things he wanted us to do, apart from scoring and defending i.e. get the ball out wide and get crosses in. We've done that really really well. Just our luck has kept us from scoring from at least one of those crosses.
I'm one of the few people who didn't think we played well against Arsenal at home. We played like a good mid-table side would usually play against us. Dogged, hard working, not particularly creative. Scored from a header from a corner and then protected the lead the longer the game went on. If anything it was the ultimate Evertonisation performance.
If he thinks this is wing play he is mistaken. Wing play is not just bombing down the wing, it is running at defenders, so they are on the backfoot, dribbling past defenders, cutting inside and shooting, getting right to the by line and cutting the ball back. There is a lot involved in being a good winger. We have Young and Valencia who are fast and that just seems to be the reason they are out there.
- Status