The issue is that whatever he says, the fans will always try to put a negative spin on it. He can't change that now because a lot of fans see what they want to see and will spin his words to fit their agenda.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Apparently he said you need 'football intelligence' to understand his tactics against Fulham.
At least he didn't say we won't be 21 points less this time next season
No, as I said I want him to stop with the excuses and deflecting the blame away from himself. I want him to take responsibility and give me the confidence that he is the man to change things. If he did that, and I knew he had a plan then I could back him again. However as it stands, we are getting worse on the pitch and he doesn't seem to be in control of it.
"A lot of people are looking at the Fulham game and saying we crossed it too much. If we hadn't crossed it they would be saying we should have crossed it more.
"Anybody who watched the game the other day and didn't think we deserved to win by a hundred miles knows nothing about it."
He's clueless.
"Anybody who watched the game the other day and didn't think we deserved to win by a hundred miles knows nothing about it."
He's clueless.
I don't believe so, saying things like the players are mentally weak, I don't know what to do to win, we need at least 5 world class players to compete or I wasn't in this position last season, I was at Everton, are not exactly words that are going to fill the players or fans with confidence.
As I said words are powerful, and saying the right things could get the fans back on side.
Apparently he said you need 'football intelligence' to understand his tactics against Fulham.
Reminds me a bit of this:
"He [Veron] is a f**king great player" were his parting words. "And you're all f**king idiots."
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/may/07/newsstory.sport3[/SPOILER]
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/may/07/newsstory.sport3[/SPOILER]
The first quote is ridiculous but he has a point on the second one, we did deserve to win that game. For whatever that is worth, which is pretty much nought.
we did deserve to win it though, even the commentators were saying it was one of the most one sided games in Prem history!
How can you put a negative spin on saying people need football intelligence to understand our tactics against Fulham? That is blind delusion I'm afraid. Rene, who I'd think has some football intelligence, called it 'straightforward'. Dan Burn, who probably has a smidgeon of football intelligence too, called it 'Conference' style. The consensus is we got it wide and then pumped it into the box, which is what we have been doing all year (the masses just didn't realise it cos we've not had that much of the ball in a game before). His tactics and his football are simply not suited to the playing staff we have.
People saying we dont like him cos he doesn't have an exotic name? No. If he played football the way Bobby Robson's teams played or even Harry Redknapp I wouldn't mind if he was called Sam from Salford. But his style of football is so boring, so lacking in intent that its a chore to watch. Arguably we're playing worse than when Middlesbrough smacked us about and Keano lost his rag and ended up getting booted out of Old Trafford.
Fair enough, I just find all these press conference reactions a bit trivial. He can only answer his critics on the football pitch. With good football and good results. This is why I currently don't back him, not because of anything he's ever said to the media while he's clearly pissed off.
I think its a fair assessment to say that Moyes recent comments indicate that he is disappointed with the players. I have sympathy with him too.
Say what you like about Moyes, and everybody has, and regardless of whether you believe he is or isn't good enough to manage a club of this size, I don't believe that he is bad enough to take a title winning team down to the levels we have seen this season. Not on his own anyway.
Say what you like about Moyes, and everybody has, and regardless of whether you believe he is or isn't good enough to manage a club of this size, I don't believe that he is bad enough to take a title winning team down to the levels we have seen this season. Not on his own anyway.
Apparently he said you need 'football intelligence' to understand his tactics against Fulham.
Ya, apparently it was something like "you need football intelligence, a football brain, to first of all understand my tactics". No links, just a mate apparently saw it somewhere.
Feck me, if that is true, then in his mind, this is progress. Cross, fail, repeat.
I can understand that, and to be fair the best place to answer critics is on the pitch, but when things are going bad on the field it's good to have a strong leader off it. Someone who can see the issues and knows how to fix it. So far Moyes has failed on both.
He should have made a dinosaur metaphor. Everyone loves dinosaurs, he'd be a Media darling today. What an idiot.
It has happened though and there is only a variable that has changed from last season (well four variables: Moyes/SAF, Januzaj, Mata and Fellaini).
I keep looking at this quote, I can't quite believe what I'm reading. Is this accurate? Did he literally say this? No misquotes or anything?
'Im not 21 points worse off....'
Words.
escape me.
This doesnt compute for me. The manager carries the ultimate responsibility. So when you say "not on his own", it is right in one sense, but then if the players are not playing for him, and I dont think they are, not 100%, that is still his fault, in a sense. It is still his responsibility, he has to get the players playing for him. So what you say makes no sense, you could say he isnt bad enough to take a winning team down to these levels before it happened, as a prediction. But we are here now, so how can he not be bad enough to get us here?
The only thing I would say to mitigate that damning verdict is that I dont think he really is a bad manager so much as a manager having a terrible time, for reasons we have all discussed many times before. I believe he will get better than this, though whether he will be good enough to deliver on our expectations is another matter.
It's funny. And also weird cos I kind of like that he's finally showing some 'fire', for lack of a better word. Even though it makes him look kind of crazy.
He should turn up tonight dressed as Braveheart, with war paint and a kilt. That'd get everyone fired up. As @Mockney might say, maybe the problem is he just isnt calling on his Scottishness enough.
Agreed. He's completely lacked that oomph this season, I want to see more of it. Even if, as you said, it makes him look a nutter.
personally I think some of the playes have given him a hard time about that 'mentally soft' comment and he probably decided to try to say the least as possible. Unfortunately even his least tends to mean his says a few odd things that are frustrating.
I totally disagree with Moyes laying the blame on our league cup shambles on de Gea. We played terrible in both legs. That's why we didn't get to the final. Not that one error from de Gea. If we'd have played anywhere near to our capabilities it would have been a moot point.
-players are mentally weak
I don't think all this 'mentally weak' business is as bad as it's been made out to be. To me it means that they couldn't see the game out and conceded a stupid goal. It doesn't sound like he's accusing the players of being pussies. I will concede that there are different ways to interpret his words.
-I don't know what to do to win
By itself, the quote does look bad. But if you include his entire interview and the context and the manner in which he said it, it's more of a throwaway comment, as in, "We created opportunities and chances, but we couldn't score and conceded unlucky goals." It's not like he was weeping and sobbing while saying that he didn't know how to win.
-we need at least 5 world class players to compete
That's all he said, but headlines were 'Moyes doesn't think United have world class players'. All he said was that to win the CL, one needs 5-6 world class players. Then he goes to say that United DO have a few worldies but not enough to challenge for the CL. Which is a fair comment in my opinion given that that's the view that most on here have. We have RVP, Rooney, and potentially DDG. I notice a lot of sites omit the last bit about 'several players who are in that category or close to it' e.g. Skysports, ESPN. Again, omission to suit agendas.
-The last one, I'd like to see the interview and the context and how he said it before I make judgement. It does seem like a stupid thing to say from him.
All in all, his words have been twisted to suit agendas. I'd look at the full interview and context first instead of simply reading quotes off an article.
No I'm not being encouraged by the Blue Noses I know either. Its a worry
I dont understand why a manager has to have a set style of play. Surely the good managers adapt to the players they inherit, and play a system to suite?? Why a manager have to defensive, or direct, if they have players capable of attacking football??
A number of players, who lived under Fergie fear, some of whom are eyeing the exit door, seem to have completely taken their foot off the gas. As a footballer I simply dont understand that mentality, surely you still want to enjoy the game, and still want to win?? So does that mean they're just not enjoying it under Moyes? Is it a character clash? Or (most scary of all) does Moyes really not know how to sort it out ??? (Cant even contemplate that last option, too scary!)
The facts of the matter speak for themselves. There is no disputing what has already happened. I guess what I meant was that I don't believe that he has inherited a squad of players that are performing to the levels that they always have done under Ferguson. How much of that is Moyes responsibility is down to personal opinion, but as someone has posted before I think we have encountered almost a perfect storm of shitty situations.
- Very tough fixtures to start the season - confidence of the team affected almost from the start
- Injuries to key players at the same time
- The unprecedented changes that occured on the non-playing staff over the summer
- Back four in transition. Rio, Vidic and Evra have all been underpar this season, and are likely all on their way out
There are other points I could have added, but those four are key (in no particular order). I'm just of the opinion that it is harsh to blame everything that has happened on one man, and I have no loyalty towards Moyes when I say that. If they sacked him tomorrow then we would probably all look back and say 'well its hard to argue with that', but I believe the club are equally sympathetic to the situation and they will back him with funds in the summer and then judge him next season. As will I.
@Mel_F Definitely, the media are always going to "sex up" anything that is said to make a story more interesting, that is their job. As fans we ought to have the intelligence to read past the headline, look beyond the quotes that have been edited to sensationalise them, and judge for ourselves whether what is being said is valid or not. People are so easily steered by newspapers.
If he really did say the stuff about football intelligence, and the other things, it really does make him seem like he's cracking up a bit.
When did he do that? Don't remember reading about him blaming de gea other then he made a rare mistake and it's just our luck sort of thing.
They haven't been twisted though, yes you have to look at the quotes in full, but he still said it, what is he going to gain by saying it? Even back then he was making excuses.
By saying you need 5 or 6 players to win the UCL is saying to your players that you aren't good enough to win it, you're not a Barcelona or Bayern Munich. He also said " we don't have that yet" So what ever else he said about experience is irrelevant.
Let's say the players are mentally weak, why make it public, who's fault is it that they are? The team is clearly lacking in confidence, the last thing they need is to be called mentally weak by their boss. Is that the sign of a good manager?
I could go on but my point remains the same, it's never his fault, he's the manager he has to take responsibility.
I'm not that bothered about press conferences and whatever he feeds the newspapers, although it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that when the going gets tough and he's ruined the best side in the country in six months every single thing he does will be under scrutiny, including how he handles the media.
That quote about "when teams impact the middle the space is wide" and so forth though - is he really fecking thick? Why does he think Fulham came to Old Trafford and packed the fecking middle and doubled up on his wingers? Because that's virtually all we do!
If Moyes had any variation to his tactics throughout the season teams like Fulham wouldn't be able to go to Old Trafford and play extreme tactics like that.
That quote about "when teams impact the middle the space is wide" and so forth though - is he really fecking thick? Why does he think Fulham came to Old Trafford and packed the fecking middle and doubled up on his wingers? Because that's virtually all we do!
If Moyes had any variation to his tactics throughout the season teams like Fulham wouldn't be able to go to Old Trafford and play extreme tactics like that.
He said we would have been in a cup final only for a rare mistake from De Gea, he didn't blame him. Still I'm sure De Gea won't appreciate it.
Yeah fair enough, me too as far as the last bit goes. My confidence and expectations about next year are rapidly diminishing because I think this year has gone worse than expected, worse than is easily justifiable to be honest, but I still think he should have an opportunity to turn things around - provided they dont get too much worse.
But taken individually I personally dont have much sympathy with some of those factors.
Tough start: Swansea, Chelsea, Pool, Palace. Cripplingly hard? Not too sure about that. We beat the teams we shouldve beaten, we drew at home to Chelsea which is a perfectly fine result and lost at Anfield which is forgivable. So where is this collapse in confidence coming from? We got turned over by City a few weeks later but I dont see we can say we were "unlucky" having to play City in mid September.
Injuries: yes we have had injuries but that is why we have a squad. And we have a big squad. It is lacking in quality a bit, yes, it is unfortunate Moyes didnt do more to sort that out in the summer (or January). But I still fail to see how people managed to make it into our squad if they arent good enough to come in and get us a win against the likes of Stoke, Sunderland, Swansea and Cardiff. Its all well and good having a strongest XI but the point with a squad is to be able to rotate and account for injuries without a complete collapse in form. But this is aas much SAF's fault as Moyes'.
Playing staff changes: Moyes can hardly play the victim card here surely? Maybe we will reap benefits from that in the longer term but for now he has to live with the consequences of the decisions he took.
Back 4: He would have done himself more favours by dropping Vidic, you keep selecting players who are playing like numpties, how much sympathy do you deserve when they keep playing like numpties?
As I said, I agree with the basic premise that he deserves to be judged on his second season but I think the above factors pale into significance when set against the real issue which is that the players seem to be underwhelmed by him or are struggling to adjust to life without SAF at the helm, otherwise I think the squad players would have done a much better job than they have done.
Did you not read the full quote? He said United have several players who ARE world class or are close to world class.
Regarding the 'mentally soft' quote, I said above that it can be interpreted in different ways. Should he have chosen to phrase it like that in public? Probably not. This is one of the parts of the job that he needs to get used to i.e. people analysing his every word. It's not something that he had to deal with at Everton. He's already gotten a lot of PR training at United, and I'd argue this is one of the only areas that he should be given time to get used to. That being said, the recent Fulham quotes does show that he's cracking under pressure.
I say 'twisted' because his quotes get edited out so that some sentences are omitted from articles, making his words sound a lot worse than they actually are. Also, the manner in how he said those words cannot be translated into articles, so in some cases, like the Stoke City interview, it made him sound worse.
I will say though, this is the same group of players that bottled an 8 point lead 2 seasons ago under Ferguson. Mentally soft? I would say there's a case to be made there.
I'd like to see a quote.
For me, as unlikely any manager is ever going to state that, but if he did come out, at least once and admit he got it wrong - whether it be tactially or picking players - then I would respect him more than this constant bemoaning his luck (which, I do think in parts we have been missing our fair share). Of course, there are going to be many on here who think he should state what you put and this and that, but on the large if he was honest, then we could relate to him. Maybe. Wenger came out after the LFC defeat and said he got it wrong - wonder what AFC fans thought of that?
That interview..
He seems to have cracked completely. I really dont think he is the way forwards and if that is the case then we should really get rid and get someone else in ASAP. His tactics are prehistoric and he seems proud of it.
He seems to have cracked completely. I really dont think he is the way forwards and if that is the case then we should really get rid and get someone else in ASAP. His tactics are prehistoric and he seems proud of it.
You just hope what he said, particuarly about the crossing point was born out of frustration to deflect the question rather than his actual private thoughts on the subject..
If not.. words fail me.
where can I get a link to this interview? Thanks in advance!
The story has been updated on the bbc but it had quotes. I should have posted those. Now it just says:
He highlighted David De Gea's error against Sunderland that denied United a place in the League Cup final and Sunday's 2-2 draw with Fulham, when the Cottagers equalised in injury time at the end of the match.
But he basically said, if the quotes were real, that we'd have been in the cup final were it not for the de Gea mistake, who otherwise has played really well all season.
Like most sacking him now wouldn't get us anywhere but his trusted staff needs to go. From various podcasts I've listened to David is a workaholic who tries to do everything at the club. Someone even mentioned while at Everton he had to be told not to set the cones out before the game for the players to warm up.
If he doesn't trust his current staff to carry out things like scouting and running practices then what is the point of having them around? He would do well with some fresh ideas around him. Being that he is a hard worker and loyal IF he makes theses changes you can see the benefits of keeping him around.
If he doesn't trust his current staff to carry out things like scouting and running practices then what is the point of having them around? He would do well with some fresh ideas around him. Being that he is a hard worker and loyal IF he makes theses changes you can see the benefits of keeping him around.
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