Simple. Get the ball on the floor and promote creative quick passing. Get the technical players on the pitch and give them freedom to express themselves. Stop the freaking crossing tactics which we've seen all bloody season.
Moyes So Far!
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Simple. Get the ball on the floor and promote creative quick passing. Get the technical players on the pitch and give them freedom to express themselves. Stop the freaking crossing tactics which we've seen all bloody season.
Does anyone think the media has been extremely kind to him? Some Liverpool supporters I talk to say it reminds them of the Hodgson tenure. Just seems the media is extra soft when it comes to British managers. People talking like Keane about how we need a bazillion new players as if the current batch can't play far, far better...
He asked for time and patience yet gives none to fabio, saha, and kagawa
Well it's clear AVB would feel likewise, and he's right, I think the issue is the press need bait inorder to attack, AVB showed weakness in some of his press conferences and they attacked, it's not helping the papers and every British manager in football (bar Rodgers) need the guy to succeed, but yes they have been kind to him so far.
I do. But it's quickly turning. The Fulham game was a turning point and he'll be under more media pressure from now on. That question regarding the crosses was a highlight.
They haven't e-lynched him like they did AvB, that's for sure; probably because they still fear the wrath of Fergie, getting frozen out of pressers, and/or boycotted by United. Also has to do with Moyes comes across as a nice guy who is difficult to vilify in the rags. That does seem to be changing a bit over the past few days though - more writers and editorials seem to have taken a sharper tone of late.
Of course they have. The criticism is minimal considering the biggest club in the country and current Champions have slid so far so fast during his tenure. Imagine an AVB team had played against Fulham the way we did on Sunday. He would have been slaughtered. They slaughtered him for far less.
I wish it was that simple and maybe it is, I can't think of any point under Moyes we have tried this, perhaps a lack of players with the ability to keep the ball points to this steadily depressing looking system we're playing now. How do we make the shift into what's been our rigid 4-4-2 for many years into an entirely different system, one that requires a gifted pair of holding mids who need to be as mobile as possible. I am fairly tactically unaware myself but I have played a bit (unprofessionally of course) so I know the systems quite well although 4-2-3-1 was just called 4-5-1 back then
There's an Evertonian over at Reddit who has posted some stuff the past year about his tactics. Now, I understand that this might come across as shit-stirring by me but I'm just passing it by without judgement.
This one's from 9 months ago:
Someone asked him today:
Will he ever change tactic? Was there any game, that you can slightly compare to yesterdays match, where he changed tactics during the game?
Whereby he answered:
Forgive the wall of text. I will try and keep some brief TLR's going.
He usually changed tactics when we went ahead, but to his credit he did so when we were behind at times to good effect. One prime example was Spurs last season, we were playing pretty OK- went 1-0 down (like at the weekend, similar time also) and Moyes brought on Vellios for Osman in about the 80th minute.
Now I doubt you are familiar with our lumbering Greek, but he was a big, stupid target man type- a clear tactical option with little skill. The reason it was so interesting is because we already had Fellaini as a target man in the hole, and Jelavic as the striker. Bringing Vellios on really threw the Spurs defence off.
With their lot trying to sit a bit deeper, the ball made it to Baines whenever we wanted it to- and he was able to throw in his lethal first time crosses from deep time and again. This worked great for us, and really freed up Fellaini, as AVB was too slow to adjust and get orders out to his team. This game ended up with us scoring in the 90th and 94th minute (Pienaar and Jelavic IIRC)- and to his credit, that was completely down to the confusion of putting Vellios on.
The exact same thing also happened vs Sunderland, they were 1-0 up- in the 70th minute Vellios came on, and we ended up winning 2-1 (goal from Fellaini and Jelavic). It was a pretty decent plan B, albeit not elegant..
(MOyes can't do this at United though, because he doesn't have 1, let alone 2 monster target men, and he doesn't have a player like Baines who can deliver pinpoint crosses with his first touch. This is an important aspect, as it doesn't give the defenders chance to think about their positioning before a ball is blasted in a dangerous area. One big issue with you vs Fulham (aside from the general shit quality of the balls coming in) was that they took too long to be delivered, often from the byline- so the big ass defenders could position themselves perfectly. With a Baines type player, they never have that option)
The issue with Moyes is that he would often sit on his hands and pull this face where he sucks his lips together, rather than making the changes needed- kind of like this. Whilst he would usually make changes to the system eventually (which were largely in the vein of the above- reverting to more of a long ball style), they often came 10-15 minutes too late. I remember watching us getting outplayed by O'Neil repeatedly during the last 10 years, always because that dour tosser always made quicker and smarter tactical changed during the game. It bloody killed me that did.
TL
The more frustrating this as an Everton fan was that he was far more concerned and proactive about changing tactics when going ahead, usually reducing the tempo and trying to hold onto the ball. Unfortunately for us this was very hit and miss, and it allowed teams to claw their way back into the game when we were dominating. It worked back in our CL qualifying season, but that was because we were able to hold tighter than anything and won something like 9 (or maybe even 11) games 1-0. Since then he has tried to replicate that style, but the issue now is that teams all have the individual stars to break down that negative style with a moment of brilliance.
Whilst we were never really in the position that United were yesterday, we had quite a few games that reminded me of it.
The most telling examples of this from recent memory were QPR or Reading last year. We were just bulldozing both of them, it was insane- we could have been 4-0 up vs either of them, but it was not to be.
Against Reading we went 1-0 up early on, and it was just glorious. We were passing freely, creating chances and forcing the keeper to make saves. We go in at half time, and come back out playing negative football- not pressing at all and letting them dictate the tempo. We ended up losing that game 2-1.
Most of the time however we just struggled to break down tough teams, we dropped so many points to deep-sitting defenses, and that is what cost us Europe time and again.
What I really hated was the fact that there was no 'get up and go' to force the opposition out of the game when we went ahead. Under Martinez we use those moments of vulnerability after they have conceded to try and put the game out of sight, with Moyes we always just tried to sit on the scoreline. This was evident this season for you lot in one game that I saw, I am pretty sure it was the Swansea game where you went 1-0 up, were dominating... And just relaxed for the last 10 mins of the half. I may have got the game wrong, but it was around that time.
TL
http://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/c...gave_his_perspective_on_moyes_and_his/cfc5tgv
I wish it was that simple and maybe it is, I can't think of any point under Moyes we have tried this, perhaps a lack of players with the ability to keep the ball points to this steadily depressing looking system we're playing now. How do we make the shift into what's been our rigid 4-4-2 for many years into an entirely different system, one that requires a gifted pair of holding mids who need to be as mobile as possible. I am fairly tactically unaware myself but I have played a bit (unprofessionally of course) so I know the systems quite well although 4-2-3-1 was just called 4-5-1 back then
Nope, that's rubbish. Cleverley and Carrick have some of the best passing stats in Europe. Their whole game is built around keeping the ball. Then we have players like Kagawa and Mata who are again great passers.
I simply think the scenario is this: Dave joins United and knows that our tradition is play on the wings and cross the ball. So he's adopted those tactics and exaggerated them to the point of Fulham.
We actually have the setup capable of playing excellent one touch technical football if given the chance. Remember that amazing Nani goal against City?
They have been very soft on him. I think most of the football media are laughing their cocks off.
As for Keane, I think most of what he said was spot on to be fair. As a player, someone like him just wouldn't comprehend writing the season off now and not playing at your highest level to win every game you can... in terms of inspiring the team he'd make Moyes' an irrelevance. He is basically saying that we should be playing better, but need 5 or 6 players to get back to the very top.
I disagree with him saying that Moyes 'deserves plenty of time'. Not at this fecking rate. I think there is also the fact that on some level Keane must empathise with shite managers.
Spot on. Cleverley and Carrick are never going to shine when all they're used for is to pass the ball out to the wings.
Depressing read.
It's only rubbish until you realise that we can't actually keep the ball !
I am not against us playing this type of football, it's what I hope for most from the players we have at our disposal, Cleverley and Carrick have been unable to find a forward pass between them for large parts of this campaign, how many times does Carrick need to find De Gea per game ? It's scary at times.
We have these gifted technical players we could use in a dynamic front 3 spearheaded by one of the Worlds deadliest finishers but that front 3 needs to bounce off what's behind it, someone like the Carrick of last season. We've seen Moyes pull Rooney deeper into that role and perhaps it's our only answer just now, pull Rooney back next to Carrick and let him provide the link to Mata in the hole, I have a funny feeling Moyes is already plotting this set up and we've seen it implemented in our last two games albeit it forced in one of them. Whether or not he throws the system in now or tries to ease it over the course of next pre-season remains to be seen but I have a feeling he is just treading water tactically and has gone back to what he thinks the team knows best. Having us playing the wide way would probably have given off more fruit than it has had we had a single player capable of delivering a ball this year, Valencia had outstanding delivery and Nani also (unfortunately injured), and with Evra and Rafael we had two very capable fullbacks to deliver the ball, for one reason or another they have all lost the ability to cross a ball accurately.
The way forward for Moyes here is as clear as mud, I think we should all be concentrating on what we should be doing rather, perhaps Moyes settles down to read the cafs advice and thinks feck this.
Spot on. Unfortunately.
I think you don't appreciate what's going on here.
Our tactics are for our midfielders to pass it wide. Why do you think Carrick has been so ineffective this season? You can't go from being the best midfielder in the premiership to back passing to the goalkeeper unless there's a change in tactics. It's like some of you think the players go on the pitch and ignore everything Dave instructs them. The fact Carrick is passing it back or sideways is due to managerial instruction. The fact none of our play is coming through the middle is due to managerial instruction. You can understand it being a player fault if it occurs once or twice a season, but this is game after game.
Rene even predicted our tactics before the game started! We're horribly predictable and whys that? We've played the same way in pretty much every game this season. It's our Plan A, B, C and G.
Perhaps the reason why our players have been in such dire form is because they don't feel comfortable using the tactics? That they feel like they can't express themselves? That they're getting frustrated playing crap football?
You make it sound like that our central midfielders are shit. They aren't shit, they're being instructed to play shit football. Massive difference.
Nobody is going to argue with that, and it's been a mirror of what our season has become, what's even more depressing is how our seasons points tally marry up with that of Everton last season.
Moyes has the chance to make the change here, he has the keys to success being manager of one of the biggest clubs in the World, failure now through fear and he can only have himself to blame.
I understand what's going on, what I am trying to look for is the answer, and yes I know it's not hitting the wide men, what is that we do tactically in order to get more penetration through the middle ? Cleverley seems to have some of the ability but not the mentality to take control, Carrick isn't the player we saw last season, he seems to have reverted to the player we gave so much grief under Ferguson, but that's not what I am putting forward for discussion.
How does this new narrow system work for us with the players we have ? The front 4 for me contains one of RVP,Mata,Rooney,Kagawa,Januzaj the concern being who to play behind and who to trust to be able to play football with these technical players. Fellaini might be just the tonic in that system but Rooney is looking for all the more like Moyes chosen one. Your rear two must be outstanding defensively and also have the ability to play football on level with the players they are combining with in front, one loose pass from your holding players and your in dire straits, I can somehow sympathise with Moyes decision not to implement it although it's to the point now where I would rather see us get thrashed trying, than watch a repeat of Sunday's debacle.
I think he should definitely have till the end of the season without consequence to at least attempt some change. Other than that there has to be some accountability on his part.
What I would admit to though is "not caring" about tomorrow's result. It has no bearing whatsoever where we end up this season or even the future of the club. I stopped caring about wins, losses and defeats a while now. It's actually quite refreshing.
Technically I meant losing at OT. And we didn't lose. So all in all was right
Interesting, thanks.
You could be excused for not caring all that much. We're not going to perform well, we're guaranteed more losses, Moyes won't be sacked. Write off of a season.
I've not quite lost the ability to care as yet especially where Arse and the scouse are concerned but the pressure is lessened on Moyes now and if he doesn't start using some of out remaining fixtures for change then he just about feck off.
Biggest pre season ever about to begin.
I think it's beginning to change. Seems he's quite pally with most of the journos who cover the Manchester clubs, but even now Ogden, Ducker, Ladyman etc. are giving him some stick in their articles.
He has got a very easy ride though, considering. Even Mourinho with his army of nut-huggers in the media would have found himself in for more criticism than Moyes has received.
He's getting on my tits. "Our luck has to change." No, David, it's you that has to change. Our league position has nothing to do with luck and everything to do with hideous tactics and negative football.
Another press conference of loser-driven banality.
Another press conference of loser-driven banality.
He's given them time on the bench and they need to be patient to get their chance.
We've seen Zaha's personality - he's not ready for us.
Fabio was over-rated in my honest opinion. Buttner may not be the greatest LB in the world, but Fergie signed Buttner while Fabio was here. Just saying.
Kagawa, even though I adore him, disappears in games in an instant. He's a patient one I'm sure, and I'm sure he knows he'll be given another chance soon - it's up to him to impress in it.
Aye. We've had a huge amount of bad luck to be fair - but no top team in the world find themselves at 7th in February due to bad luck.
Precisely. People ask for time, patience, and loyalty for the manager who insanely persists with the same ineffective tactics and negative approach, and yet Moyes shows no time, patience, or loyalty to his players and existing structure at the club. Against Ferguson's advice, he eviscerates the backroom staff who've been crucial to the club's success, and he inexplicably fails to give certain players a fair chance.
I will never forgive Moyes for selling Fábio without ever giving him a proper chance. It's a complete and utter betrayal. This is superb young player who's been at the club since the age of 17, has a tremendous and professional attitude, and is innumerably a better option than our current backup players at both left-back and right-back. I believe he'd also be 100% better than Evra, who has looked jaded and broken this season thanks to Moyes' overuse of this 32 year old player. I wish that whoever succeeds Moyes will bring Fábio back home to give him the chance he deserves.
Ouch. An interesting read though.
While I'm part of the Moyes Out group, I find it laughable that he's being blamed for absolutely anything and everything. Honestly it's like people analyse his every word and action and try to find something negative about it. I think even if we smash Arsenal 5-0 tomorrow he would probably still be blamed for something. He has his faults (a lot of them actually), but he's not exactly Hitler either.
Oh he's far worse then Hitler! You wouldn't find Hitler playing jungle music at 3 o clock in the morning
I agree with what he is saying, yet under Martinez we still sometimes struggle to break teams down, so he's being a little harsh on Moyes in that aspect.
The difference being the bombardment and that we are playing attractive football whilst trying to win the game. That is the key point, our intentions now are always positive, we will always be trying to win or score more. We never try to sit back on a 1-0 win, we try and score more and put teams to the sword.
Bloody ell, these pressers are getting really grating. Yeah David, there's been nothing wrong with our approach so far, keep doing the exact same things and it will work out, 'no doubt about that' (he's even repeating that, now)
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...-as-manchester-united-prepare-to-face-arsenal
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...-as-manchester-united-prepare-to-face-arsenal
He does seem convinced everything is down to bad luck (even though we scored a deflection in the last game) instead of any fault of our own.
I have not said much about the current situation, mainly because I don't post often anymore, but partly because I felt Moyes deserved time to shape his own team and should have time to do so, but frankly our football has been so bad, so unimaginative, so tactically inept that I now have to say that I believe Moyes was absolutely the wrong choice of manager for United and he should be shown the door, quickly.
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