Yep, it wasn't only Liverpool fans to be fair, Chelsea, City, Arsenal even Everton fans couldn't believe it.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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What would Moyes' team look like now if he had magically signed Fabregas in the summer?
110% sexy. And that's quite an achievement for a squad with Rooney and the thousand faces of Phil Jones in it.
I do fear that too, and its a scary thought! For now though, and after signing Mata, I'm still in the "give him more time" camp. How sweat would it be if he did reward our faith and get us back on track ??
we would still be sh*it due to the managers s*it tactics and s*it football. Moyes doesnt know how to use world class players.
Yes, kinda like that. Zaha is even worse tbh.
Did you really have to put an alert on my screen for that wonderful deep insight?
He has to change though - this idea that it's simply unlucky that we're not currently doing well needs to go.
Everton fans I know don't really rank "ability to change" as one of his attributes however....
To a degree I agree, but some of the defending especially in the full back areas has just been bad, no positional sense. Not having a regular back four has also been an issue
Beautiful
In terms of the big question - whether to keep him or sack him - people who want to apportion x amount of blame to the manager for failing to inspire the players / getting strategies wrong and y amount of blame to the players for not being self-motivated enough to perform to their potential are completely missing the point.
If we continue on this course, the damage to the club will rapidly intensify. We must consider that we have established world-class players on our books along with an extremely promising talent in Januzaj. Keeping them here is absolutely vital for future success, in more ways than one. There is a high risk of them leaving prematurely if we maintain anything like this form. Are the Moyes In crowd really suggesting that this is a risk worth taking and a price worth paying, just to keep a hold of him, Lumsden, Round and Neville?
If we continue on this course, the damage to the club will rapidly intensify. We must consider that we have established world-class players on our books along with an extremely promising talent in Januzaj. Keeping them here is absolutely vital for future success, in more ways than one. There is a high risk of them leaving prematurely if we maintain anything like this form. Are the Moyes In crowd really suggesting that this is a risk worth taking and a price worth paying, just to keep a hold of him, Lumsden, Round and Neville?
An assortment of jokers would be questioning the ability of Fabregas. Gary Neville would probably be questioning his credentials as a "Manchester United" footballer.
Cesc would have improved us in terms of individual form, but the team shape and tactics would have most likely remained the same. A bit like Mata so far.
I doubt we wouldve signed Mata. But I daresay it would have made quite a big difference, I imagine it would have given us a lift early and the mentality of the squad would have been much better from the outset. Im going to be bold and suggest we would probably be two or three places higher in the league right now.
Not that it was ever going to happen, of course.
Not that it was ever going to happen, of course.
Might have already been posted, but Keane's contribution to the discussion:
Keane told itv.com:
"They've kind of cut corners in terms of transfers in the last few years, they've not gone out and got the big players, and it's just caught up with them this year. I think Man United need five or six players. If it happens in the summer then instead of being fearful of it, embrace it – it's exciting. These can be exciting times for Man United. Get them back to the very top where they belong."
"There's always something to play for. You've always got to win your next football match so if you're telling me in January that your season is over, or when the Champions League starts, that's nonsense. You're playing for pride, you're playing for points, and United, if they do go out of the Champions League, still want to get in it next year."
"I think beating Olympiacos will be the priority. On form at this moment in time you have to say the Champions League is a long way off for Manchester United. But lots will change over the next few months. I think United will beat Olympiacos," Keane said.
"They'll have Rooney, Van Persie back after injuries. At this moment in time, would I fancy United for the Champions League? Probably not. But they're still a threat, they're still there. Big team, big players and in a couple of months' time when the big players are back up to speed with their fitness United will be a dangerous team.
"Watching United more closely perhaps than other people, you still think the Van Persies and the Rooneys if they're at it, will be a threat to the competition. I still think United can be dangerous if they get their act together over the next month or two."
Keane also felt that Moyes needed to be given breathing space to make his mark on the side. "I think the man deserves plenty of time. I think people have been afraid to use the word that there might be 'rebuilding' going on but that's exactly the word I would use."
Keane told itv.com:
"They've kind of cut corners in terms of transfers in the last few years, they've not gone out and got the big players, and it's just caught up with them this year. I think Man United need five or six players. If it happens in the summer then instead of being fearful of it, embrace it – it's exciting. These can be exciting times for Man United. Get them back to the very top where they belong."
"There's always something to play for. You've always got to win your next football match so if you're telling me in January that your season is over, or when the Champions League starts, that's nonsense. You're playing for pride, you're playing for points, and United, if they do go out of the Champions League, still want to get in it next year."
"I think beating Olympiacos will be the priority. On form at this moment in time you have to say the Champions League is a long way off for Manchester United. But lots will change over the next few months. I think United will beat Olympiacos," Keane said.
"They'll have Rooney, Van Persie back after injuries. At this moment in time, would I fancy United for the Champions League? Probably not. But they're still a threat, they're still there. Big team, big players and in a couple of months' time when the big players are back up to speed with their fitness United will be a dangerous team.
"Watching United more closely perhaps than other people, you still think the Van Persies and the Rooneys if they're at it, will be a threat to the competition. I still think United can be dangerous if they get their act together over the next month or two."
Keane also felt that Moyes needed to be given breathing space to make his mark on the side. "I think the man deserves plenty of time. I think people have been afraid to use the word that there might be 'rebuilding' going on but that's exactly the word I would use."
I think there is something in that.
Keane's style of management was always to go out and get new players so that's not surprising. He has a point in that we have missed out on big names but it's not the reason why the team is so low down the league.
I dont think it is the only reason. It all hinges on where you stand on the whole "is it Moyes or is the the squad?" debate. The sensible answer of course is that it is a bit of both, and other things besides. But our squad, while being good enough to be top 4 on paper, does have some serious weaknesses, and without SAF I dont think it would have won the league last year, or run City so close the year before. We have overachieved for a couple of seasons because of the greatness of our former manager. If we had been out there competing with City and Chelsea for the best players, buying some decent midfielders, for example, and getting people like Hazard, we would be doing better this season. We'd still be having a transitional phase, adjusting to life without SAF, but we'd be doing a lot better than we are IMO.
Read it again, you'll get it.Am I asleep? Am I dreaming? Reading that by RK, I feel like I've stumbled onto RAWK
*Likes*
Yeah it is definitely a bit of both and if we had a better midfield I imagine we would be somewhere like 5th right now as we probably would still be hampered by the awful tactics though from Moyes. Definitely agree we'd be having a transitional season regardless but we're not really talking about a transitional season here, we're talking about a disastrous one. Not one that I don't think anyone predicted despite how "bad" our squad is.
Still doesn't change the point that Keane would consistently buy 13 different players every season at Sunderland. So I don't think he is correct either.
Right. We would be having a transitional season rather than a disastrous one. I will even go a bit further and say that if things had started off a little better, as they might have done if we had a better midfield (for example), I dont think Moyes would be having such a mare with tactics. If we were somewhere around 4th, looking considerably more comfortable, not basically a laughing stock but struggling enough for people to say, "this is normal, to be expected after SAF left, but nothing more than teething problems", Moyes would be more relaxed, the team would be more relaxed and we would be playing better, more patient, more attractive football. I appreciate this last bit is a bit of a leap of faith by me, not really based on any logic or fact, but I do believe it. Circumstances have backed Moyes into a corner and he is kind of lashing out, looking desperate. We have got ourselves into a bit of a vicious circle where the worse things get the more pressure we are under, the more we panic and the worse we play.
Oh shit, keano's on our side. Now I'm questioning myself.
Yup. I agree with him...which is a bad sign, seeing as I think he's borderline-nuts.
It was never going to be plain sailing for Moyes. I mean Fergie had a very lucky season last year but we have had plenty where things have gone against us before. The sign of a top class manager is how he does in adversity and so far Moyes has come across as being incredibly timid at best. Our start of the season wasn't great but we have had dreadful starts before, it was really the loss against West Brom when things started to go down the toilet for Moyes and he hasn't been able to keep a hold since then.
I'm sick of looking for excuses on Moyes, we have the third highest wage bill in the league and he is the 7th best paid manager in the world. He should be doing a lot better, instead of playing the team in one of the most one-dimensional set ups since Tony Pulis' Stoke.
Agreed.
Nah, I got the references to "crossing" aplenty. It's just very poetic-like. RAWK'ish almost. Though not anywhere nearly as bad.
I can understand if fellaini was aready here and we make use of his height, bu moyes spent 30m on him and put him upnfront? Might as well buy a striker in the first place
What? Fellaini doesn't play up front.
This.
If we need to make big name signings just to avoid defeats to the likes of West Brom, Stoke and beat teams like Fulham then it would've showed a long time before now. It was clear, early on, that we weren't going to win the title but nobody would have thought we'd get to spring nine points off of fourth place.
Is it possible we're right and he's wrong in some way? I feel dirty.
Don't rule Liverpool out. He's got a point imo. They play some very good football, have one of the best players in the premier league and are in some fine form. 6 points off isn't anything at this stage of the season. If we did beat Arsenal and Liverpool beat Fulham then the gap would only be 2 points, with Arsenal in free fall.
I'd have Liverpool as the dark horse in the race, but they're not out of it by any means. Game still very much on for them imo.
He will once he plays, u hear it first
Moyes has one major problem in his current situation when asking for patience from the fans and that are the missing titles. If he or the ones that support him, which includes myself, are asked about what our arguments are for him staying in charge then it's either that we don't have any good alternatives available or that he will need time to adjust but there are no titles we could point to and say he knows how to win trophies and that he isn't really known for inspiring tactics and brilliant football makes it even harder to defend the fact that he needs at least the first two years and quite honestly I'm not sure how long I will keep my stance of him deserving at least two years if things keep going as they are right now.
What is it we actually do to change? What's the cafs advice to the manager? It's all well and good focusing on the managers/players inability to perform consistently well despite the squad having the quality to do so but what is it we need to do to get back on track. I think we have seen an element of going back to basics over the last few weeks and rather than improve we have gotten progressively and drastically worse, was this the correct course of action or should he just throw a 4-2-3-1 at it and see what happens?
Obviously the cafs overall feeling is we play a more narrow system and utilise our technical players but how do we start to implement such a system mid season, mid crisis and is it just that simple, what if the nature of the squad is such that looking to the wings is the first and only thought as the players receive possession.
I wouldn't mind hearing from posters who are more tactically aware on what Moyes should do with regard to positive change, rather than just hearing about what he's done that he shouldn't. If you where to sit down with the manager and discuss positive change then what would you say to him ? What says the caf experts?
Obviously the cafs overall feeling is we play a more narrow system and utilise our technical players but how do we start to implement such a system mid season, mid crisis and is it just that simple, what if the nature of the squad is such that looking to the wings is the first and only thought as the players receive possession.
I wouldn't mind hearing from posters who are more tactically aware on what Moyes should do with regard to positive change, rather than just hearing about what he's done that he shouldn't. If you where to sit down with the manager and discuss positive change then what would you say to him ? What says the caf experts?
Im tactically clueless, but I think we should think about how we want to play, go out there and try and do it and keep plugging away until it starts to click. From the menu above, I select "throw a 4-2-3-1 at it".
The bottom line is, in some ways we have little pressure on us now. In another way we have immense pressure on us but there is nothing we can do about that so we have to get on with it as best we can. But the way in which we have no pressure is that we have nothing tangible left to play for (in the league), so it doesnt really matter if we drop points, all we can do is try to play without fear and, essentially, practise playing football the way we want to see it being played in the long term. Id see it as preparing for next season, and seeing who is going to be able to adapt to the system, who isnt and therefore exactly where we need strengthening and who is surplus to requirements.
The bottom line is, in some ways we have little pressure on us now. In another way we have immense pressure on us but there is nothing we can do about that so we have to get on with it as best we can. But the way in which we have no pressure is that we have nothing tangible left to play for (in the league), so it doesnt really matter if we drop points, all we can do is try to play without fear and, essentially, practise playing football the way we want to see it being played in the long term. Id see it as preparing for next season, and seeing who is going to be able to adapt to the system, who isnt and therefore exactly where we need strengthening and who is surplus to requirements.
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