Moyes So Far!

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The way some posters to rush into various threads shoot down any perceived criticism of Moyes is baffling. It's as though they've set themselves personal little missions to do so regardless of the validity or relevance of the points being made. Not everyone is launching a #MoyesOut! attack on the manager, but given our form, the way we're playing, and our current position in the league it's only right that these things will be discussed on a Manchester United forum.

Lots of Everton players have pointed out how Martinez has made them more positive in their mentality and play and that they focus on themselves rather than trying to thwart the oppositions danger. Overuse of the flanks is a characteristic of how Moyes has set his teams up. I just don't see the point in the denial.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Only just read the Howard article.

Ironic that those comments are being used as ammunition to criticise Moyes in the same week that there was a massive love-in about Mourinho, a manager renowned for obsessively preparing his team with gameplans unique to the opposition they face next.
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Nothing is wrong with a different style of management but the difference is Moyes does that against everyone whereas Mourinho only does it against teams of the very highest quality. Whats people forget is Mourinho takes on both ideals. He looks to block the great aspects of those teams but he also greatly looks to take advantage of their weaknesses.

Howard isnt criticising Moyes but its easy to see how Martinez's style of managing would encourage excitement and enthusiasm among the players. Something you can imagine would have been different under Moyes.
 
mancan92 said:
Nothing is wrong with a different style of management but the difference is Moyes does that against everyone whereas Mourinho only does it against teams of the very highest quality. Whats people forget is Mourinho takes on both ideals. He looks to block the great aspects of those teams but he also greatly looks to take advantage of their weaknesses.

Howard isnt criticising Moyes but its easy to see how Martinez's style of managing would encourage excitement and enthusiasm among the players. Something you can imagine would have been different under Moyes.
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I'd really like to know the evidence you're basing that claim on.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'd really like to know the evidence you're basing that claim on.
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On the fact that clearly many times this season we have sat back and let teams have control even if we are in a position to take the game by the scuff of the neck. Most recently against Sunderland and Stoke.

Stoke for example, once Van Persie scored we should have then taken control of the game and full pressured till the end. Instead we let them get back on the ball quickly and went defensive pretty clearly.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Only just read the Howard article.

Ironic that those comments are being used as ammunition to criticise Moyes in the same week that there was a massive love-in about Mourinho, a manager renowned for obsessively preparing his team with gameplans unique to the opposition they face next.
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Results industry. Mourinho has the results to show for his work. Moyes doesn't.
 
datura said:
Generally I expected him to try and get us playing at a higher tempo and be more aggressive at winning the ball back, which hasn't really happened. He's failed to find the right balance of players so far and there has been far too much rotation for my liking (especially of the back four).
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He's tried it here and there but it hasn't been sustained for a long period.

The Spurs game at home I think sums up our season in a nutshell. We started with very well with a very high tempo but due to a lack of creativity struggled to score a goal. Our tempo dropped and bad defending cost us a couple of goals and left ourselves with too much to do.

I've noticed several times that we seem to start games alright but if we go 30 mins or so without scoring our tempo drops off badly. I'm not sure if this is because of a lack of confidence or if his training methods are geared towards a fast start leading to a tapering off towards the end of a match.

United used to always finish games really well and outlast opponents. This season we seem absolutely hopeless by the time we reach the 75th minute. When we are trailing coming into the last 20 mins or so I don't have any confidence that we'll get anything from a game. We rarely score late goals and have thrown several points away in the last few minutes. This can't be a coincidence, surely.
 
Kaos said:
I'm not a fan of Moyes but I wish those 'expert' heat diagrams die a gruesome death.
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The only ones I've seen is a comparison of United this and last season, and everton this and last season... Seems perfectly reasonable to me. They help portray what most of us are saying and prove the people who say we're playing the same as last season with a minor tweak wrong.
 
bosnian_red said:
Didn't expect fletch of all people to come out with something like this, basically saying the way they play is down to the managers instructions (which it obviously is, but the players saying it is different). He does say last few years though but it's not exactly a compliment to either sir Alex or moyes.
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Why? Loads of teams which play with 2 midfielders ask these 2 midfielders to not be too offensive. I don't see the big deal.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Why? Loads of teams which play with 2 midfielders ask these 2 midfielders to not be too offensive. I don't see the big deal.
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The way he says it makes it seem like they're being told to not worry about going forward or being creative, and it's like he's just deflecting the blame away from the midfield.
Anyways, almost nobody plays with 2 midfielders these days and those that do, like city, have 2 box to box players. Nobody has 2 players who don't have much energy and aren't that great on the ball and offer nothing going forward. Other then us.
 
bosnian_red said:
The way he says it makes it seem like they're being told to not worry about going forward or being creative, and it's like he's just deflecting the blame away from the midfield.
Anyways, almost nobody plays with 2 midfielders these days and those that do, like city, have 2 box to box players. Nobody has 2 players who don't have much energy and aren't that great on the ball and offer nothing going forward. Other then us.
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We have barely enough quality to play a 2 man midfield, let alone 3. Being top heavy with 2 first choice strikers doesn't help either.

How many goals have we conceded in the last 18 months due to our midfielders being caught out of position up the pitch?

If say Rooney/RvP left in the summer and we got in 2 good midfielders, I bet the briefing of our midfielders will change.
 
MDFC Manager said:
We have barely enough quality to play a 2 man midfield, let alone 3. Being top heavy with 2 first choice strikers doesn't help either.

How many goals have we conceded in the last 18 months due to our midfielders being caught out of position up the pitch?

If say Rooney/RvP left in the summer and we got in 2 good midfielders, I bet the briefing of our midfielders will change.
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Nobody's asking us to play 3 defensive or box to box midfielders. Both kagawa and mata are perfect for the role of the offensive midfielder, and then having one defensive one behind him and an all round midfielder there, like fletcher. We just choose not to do it. The results and play aren't going are way all season, so the last thing moyes should do is continue as is until the end of the season, because it is clearly shite right now.
Anyways, most players in our team just seem like they have no idea what to do most of the time; and that all comes from the training pitch.
 
bosnian_red said:
Nobody's asking us to play 3 defensive or box to box midfielders. Both kagawa and mata are perfect for the role of the offensive midfielder, and then having one defensive one behind him and an all round midfielder there, like fletcher. We just choose not to do it. The results and play aren't going are way all season, so the last thing moyes should do is continue as is until the end of the season, because it is clearly shite right now.
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Can you put those thoughts into a lineup with players we have in our squad please?
 
MDFC Manager said:
Why? Loads of teams which play with 2 midfielders ask these 2 midfielders to not be too offensive. I don't see the big deal.
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It is noteworthy when one considers some of the occasions in which the team has suffered through unnecessarily defensive tactics, or the obverse in so far as our attacking play through the centre.

The time period suggested by Fletch does warrant a few additional details when compared to the present however: the absence of Scholes, the current form of Carrick, and that Fergie would often start an extra man in the midfield.
 
Will Absolute said:
Very pointed and revealing quotes. He's contrasting Martinez's way of doing things to a different way of doing things, which, logically, can only be that of the previous manager. It dovetails perfectly with bits and pieces we hear from Old Trafford, and, indeed, with some of the things Moyes himself has said in public.

You have to assume that it's difficult for a team of 'winners' to swallow that kind of negative approach.
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People only see what they want to see. The quote could just as easily be interpreted to mean they've become too timid under Martinez and he wants them to be as confident as they were under Moyes.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'd really like to know the evidence you're basing that claim on.
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Moyes said that we needed to make things difficult for Newcastle at Old Trafford.

Did you see Mourinho set his team up to counter the threat of Newcastle yesterday?
 
Two of our better performances and results have come where we've seen Rooney playing deeper than his usual 2nd striker role, the away game against Aston Villa for example he was almost so far back that he made up the 3rd man in midfield and not surprising we found it easier to link our midfield with the attack and actually looked cohesive for a change, leading up to a 3goal win, not that it was the only positive change in that particular game but it certainly looked as if it helped.

I'm genuinely perplexed at why we haven't tried similar more often, considering our stuggles in match fitness and overall lack of quality in our midfield, playing with just the two is clearly adding to our issues.

Moyes used to try and clog the middle in his time with Everton, if not with quality, then quantity, I'm really baffled as to why we haven't attempted to throw an extra body back there more often... perhaps he's scared of being deemed not to be playing "united football" but I'm sure fans would rather we end up with a win in the column with 5 across the middle right now than going down to defeats wtih the current system, hell.. it's not like we're playing well with 2 in the middle & 2 upfront now is it?
 
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It's bemusing when people say Moyes is 'Evertonizing' us when so far I think he's shown the willingness to adapt to different set of players albeit not very successfully. He never played 2 strikers or 2 man midfield at Everton. He never played out and out wingers at Everton yet Valencia appears to be one of the first names on the team sheet here. People have criticized him for not knowing what to do with technical AM's yet he got out the best out of Arteta in a more advanced role.
 
akash02 said:
It's bemusing when people say Moyes is 'Evertonizing' us when so far I think he's shown the willingness to adapt to different set of players albeit not very successfully. He never played 2 strikers or 2 man midfield at Everton. He never played out and out wingers at Everton yet Valencia appears to be one of the first names on the team sheet here. People have criticized him for not knowing what to do with technical AM's yet he got out the best out of Arteta in a more advanced role.
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Personally I wonder if it's almost the opposite, he's trying to incoperate how Sir Alex set up in the past, and I really wonder if Sir Alex drilled into him just a tad too much of our history has been with 2 wingers and such~, when you ask Evertonians on if they recognise the struggles we've had, some have commented on the fact he's not been setting up as the Moyes they recognise.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Personally I wonder if it's almost the opposite, he's trying to incoperate how Sir Alex set up in the past, and I really wonder if Sir Alex drilled into him just a tad too much of our history has been with 2 wingers and such~, when you ask Evertonians on if they recognise the struggles we've had, some have commented on the fact he's not been setting up as the Moyes they recognise.
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I've wondered this. I remember the game against Leverkusen at OT when Valencia scored and on MUTV they interviewed Moyes after the game and were waxing lyrical about Valencia and the fantastic wing play and the fact that it's part of Manchester United's DNA to play with flying wingers etc. I almost wonder if the 4-4-2 / winger tradition is a burden that he's trying to uphold. I personally think he'd have more joy if he moved on from both. It'll be madness to carry on doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. It's not working.
 
LR7 said:
I've wondered this. I remember the game against Leverkusen at OT when Valencia scored and on MUTV they interviewed Moyes after the game and were waxing lyrical about Valencia and the fantastic wing play and the fact that it's part of Manchester United's DNA to play with flying wingers etc. I almost wonder if the 4-4-2 / winger tradition is a burden that he's trying to uphold. I personally think he'd have more joy if he moved on from both. It'll be madness to carry on doing the same thing over and over and expect different results. It's not working.
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The signing of Mata and the emergence of Januzaj provide two players who are more wide playmakers then traditional wingers (as is Kagawa) so I would anticipate a change there. Even with Valencia playing he seems to have been encouraged to cut inside, as has whoever is starting on the left.
 
datura said:
The signing of Mata and the emergence of Januzaj provide two players who are more wide playmakers then traditional wingers (as is Kagawa) so I would anticipate a change there. Even with Valencia playing he seems to have been encouraged to cut inside, as has whoever is starting on the left.
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Indications are there but any actual effective change remains to be seen. I noticed Valencia tucking in more than he's ever done since I was at the Liberty Stadium on our first league game of the season. I assumed it was to make the midfield more solid since him cutting in is largely ineffective because he's so one-footed so it's easy to force him back out..

Rooney slightly deeper to be the tip of a midfield three rather than a second striker and Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa being our first choice players in the 'wide' positions would be a good place to start with Valencia and Young being sub options for when a game needs stretching or to exploit teams who play overly narrow. Patient build up play rather than hitting the early cross wouldn't go amiss either. We have the players to play better football and to break teams down by penetrating centrally. I'm not in the camp that suggests they're all shit or old and we need to spend £x00m on a brand new squad. I think signs of improvement should be implemented with these current players. I just don't think rigidly adhering to the old United winger/4-4-2 traditions is doing Moyes any favours.

I'm not saying ditch our traditions completely but everything in football needs modernising. Wing play can still be effective just not the way were doing it which is so predictable and easy to defend against. I used this example in another thread but lots of people were laughing at Brendan Rodgers and Liverpool last season when despite the fact that they were miles off the pace, you could see him implementing his style and system on the team, and it was taking him time to get them to play the way he wanted them to. Under Moyes I've seen very little in the way of progress (we've actually regressed), identity or inclination as to how he wants us to play apart from spreading the ball wide, getting to the byline and whipping an early cross in.
 
I'm ok with having wingers - in fact, I think it is very important to have the option. Modern football isn't just about technical intricate passing, it's much more about versatility. Games are more about out thinking the opponents and to have both options is good.
 
LR7 said:
Indications are there but any actual effective change remains to be seen. I noticed Valencia tucking in more than he's ever done since I was at the Liberty Stadium on our first league game of the season. I assumed it was to make the midfield more solid since him cutting in is largely ineffective because he's so one-footed so it's easy to force him back out..

Rooney slightly deeper to be the tip of a midfield three rather than a second striker and Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa being our first choice players in the 'wide' positions would be a good place to start with Valencia and Young being sub options for when a game needs stretching or to exploit teams who play overly narrow. Patient build up play rather than hitting the early cross wouldn't go amiss either. We have the players to play better football and to break teams down by penetrating centrally. I'm not in the camp that suggests they're all shit or old and we need to spend £x00m on a brand new squad. I think signs of improvement should be implemented with these current players. I just don't think rigidly adhering to the old United winger/4-4-2 traditions is doing Moyes any favours.

I'm not saying ditch our traditions completely but everything in football needs modernising. Wing play can still be effective just not the way were doing it which is so predictable and easy to defend against. I used this example in another thread but lots of people were laughing at Brendan Rodgers and Liverpool last season when despite the fact that they were miles off the pace, you could see him implementing his style and system on the team, and it was taking him time to get them to play the way he wanted them to. Under Moyes I've seen very little in the way of progress (we've actually regressed), identity or inclination as to how he wants us to play apart from spreading the ball wide, getting to the byline and whipping an early cross in.
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I'm hoping we'll see some evolution today as we've had a week to work on things and Rooney and RvP get another week of training to increase fitness and hopefully improve their relationship with Mata. Januzaj has had a rest so should be ready to return also.
 
I cannot believe that we are in such a mess. I guess the biggest question of all is can Moyes get us out of it?
 
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