Amazing the drivel people make up about Moyes these days. Perhaps you could name the line-hugging wingers playing for Everton last season?
Moyes So Far!
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Amazing the drivel people make up about Moyes these days. Perhaps you could name the line-hugging wingers playing for Everton last season?
You tell 'em lad!
And mourinho... why didn't you mention mourinho I wonder
Leighton Baines. He's not a winger, but he was their main means of attack last season.
Proof (Everton last year):
Everton this season:
Nah, Moyes didn't focus on playing it wide over all else...
United last season:
@datura
In your Everton 2012/13 season they scored 55 goals, their goal difference was +15, they were the 3rd highest proponent to the long ball in the league, they were in the bottom 3 teams for attacks through the middle and their attacking outlet was almost exclusively the left wing. Sound familiar? They did not play great or exciting football on a consistent basis. Perhaps you think that what we are seeing this season is great football.
Nobody is accusing Howard of dogging Moyes. He is unintentionally giving us insights into Moyes's methods. Methods that most of us suspected anyway due to the plumes of smoke and methods that we do not think are suitable for Manchester United.
In your Everton 2012/13 season they scored 55 goals, their goal difference was +15, they were the 3rd highest proponent to the long ball in the league, they were in the bottom 3 teams for attacks through the middle and their attacking outlet was almost exclusively the left wing. Sound familiar? They did not play great or exciting football on a consistent basis. Perhaps you think that what we are seeing this season is great football.
Nobody is accusing Howard of dogging Moyes. He is unintentionally giving us insights into Moyes's methods. Methods that most of us suspected anyway due to the plumes of smoke and methods that we do not think are suitable for Manchester United.
I don't think anyone in the world thinks they will back him no matter what... don't know where anyone's even slightly implied this might be the case
That they might give him time is a reasonable expectation though
Why is whether or not he was offered a job used against Moyes? Naturally he'd have wanted to bring in his own staff, people he felt he can work with.
Actually people commended this at the start of the season, but some emotions run and BOOM hindsight bias blows any logic out of the water
Because it isn't. Look at how they beat city. Their midfielders were storming gungho up the pitch time and again.
Just seen this. It looks that he wasn't offer anything at all. Basically a sacking, right?
While the 'demotion' has been mentioed many times by media, I wonder why Jame Ducker lied (and then that report which clearly was written from the club) that he was offered the Assistant Manager job. Why people do this when they risk in the near future to look complete idiots.
Leighton Baines. He's not a winger, but he was their main means of attack last season.
Proof (Everton last year):
Everton this season:
Nah, Moyes didn't focus on playing it wide over all else...
United last season:
Played.
Ididn´t like them in the 80s but atleast they had something to brag about in those days
It is something which i feared when he first took over and i said in pre-season that i knew we would have a couple of slip-ups along the way, because our CBs and Howard didn't look overly comfortable in terms of bringing it out from the back (But it actually ended up being Osman/Howard who messed up against Sunderland IIRC).
If we take this as a hypothetical situation and assume that we won't lose any of our players (a little unrealistic perhaps if we don't get into Europe this year or next), i think it will be okay.
Coleman and Oviedo are both young players and could be our full/wing backs for 5+ years and both still have their peak years ahead of them.
Stones looks like a player who could be a future international at CB and is a good player with the ball, very calm and collected despite a few mistakes this year (he's very young and despite them he's made some excellent goal-stopping tackles).
When i think of the term 'complete midfielder' i think that McCarthy is a lite version of such without the goals and shots at the moment, but i think that he has the ability to add that to his game. Little terrier he is and again, so calm on the ball, yet has a huge engine and enough to win it back.
Barkley...Epitome of cool, calm, and collectedness for a young midfielder and his strength could allow him to drop back to midfield so we have two combative midfield players that are just as astute in their defensive work as they are in their attack. (although Barkley would be more the playmaker and McCarthy would be the more defensive).
If we put that in a 'future xi'...
-----------------?----------
Coleman---Stones--?--Oviedo
------McCarthy---Barkley----
Mirallas--------?-----------?
---------------?--------------
GK - Joel would probably be good enough for the ball playing but i'm not sure if he will end up being good enough at everything else yet. Looked good at times for Wigan and then had a few weird howlers.
CB - Someone in the Vidic/Jagielka mould (I realise Vidic >>> Jagielka). Not the best with the ball but no nonsense defenders who'd complement Stones.
I think that we could be fine in terms of defense actually. The only worry would maybe be Ovideo as he is better in the attacking sense but so is/was Baines and we did well with him. Wouldn't worry over Coleman defensively, he's very good in both that and attack.
Apologies for the long post in this thread.
Leighton Baines. He's not a winger, but he was their main means of attack last season.
Proof (Everton last year):
Everton this season:
Nah, Moyes didn't focus on playing it wide over all else...
That heat map clearly shows both wide midfielders tucking in and over-lapping fullbacks providing the width.
So what the feck are you on about when you say he's relies on line-hugging wing play, this season and last?
United have always relied on wingers to create. That's generally (but not always) been our approach this season. Everton didn't even play with proper wingers.
But yeah, he can obviously only set up his teams to play one way
hmmm ye... i suppose your opinion on one game does discount ten years of a rigid and conservative style of play
Stats don't determine whether a team was exciting or not nor goal tallies. A lot of people think Swansea are good to watch yet Everton outscored them.
Debating about Moyes with datura is a lost cause. He either will go with his supreme t0predism or threaten to put you in ignore list.
Mourinho values a certain rigidness, I can agree with that. But he's very often shown himself willing to cast it aside for other strategies.
I honestly have the upmost respect for them as a club, with what they have achieved in the past. What they offered us after the air disaster was nothing short of amazing, but I'd never go on to RAWK, or any other fans forum and join in. I work with Scousers so that is bad enough (sound blokes like).
All of which reminds me of yet another redcafe staple that's doing my nut in this season. Since when did using the width of the pitch become a crime? The way so many people on here sneer about it, you'd swear they never watched United play before.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...nchester-United-manager-best-explain-how.html
Quite an interesting article. I think Moyes is pragmatic, I don't think he has a preferred set way of playing, he just tries to set his team out in a way that will get the best out of them. Obviously thus far this season he's failed to do that, but I'm still hopeful that he'll get it right.
Quite an interesting article. I think Moyes is pragmatic, I don't think he has a preferred set way of playing, he just tries to set his team out in a way that will get the best out of them. Obviously thus far this season he's failed to do that, but I'm still hopeful that he'll get it right.
It is not a crime but it is very unpleasent to play only with the wings. United has been always a team that has heavily relied on width, but if that becomes the only form of the attack (which has become this year) it is very uneffective, one dimensional and not exciting. I don't have anything playing with wingers, but combining it with the play from the center it is much better.
In modern football with many teams playing 3 in midfield the main area of space is wide with the fullbacks or wingers. The main issue for us this season is that ours haven't been in great form and their delivery has been poor.
The heat map shows that the play went almost exclusively down the left hand side. Look at United's heat map for this season and its very similar to that one from Everton's last season under Moyes. We always relied on width but never to the extent we have under Moyes. He has 1 way he knows how to play and he's moving us to that more and more. Sure he might want to change stuff, or has been trying (not successfully at all), because he played Januzaj and Kagawa on the wings that one time, but the thing is, the tactics stayed the same. He may have put them out there, just like he put Mata on the right against Stoke, but it was still in essence of 4-4-2. He hasn't shown any tactical nous to get us playing good, quick passing football, and its always been crossing or long balls. Even against Sunderland when we played with Januzaj and Kagawa, Kagawa was probably our best offensive player on the day but gets taken out after 60 minutes for no reason at all (probably because he wasn't being direct enough or crossing as much as Moyes would have liked) and then we lost complete control of the game, at home to sunderland.That heat map clearly shows both wide midfielders tucking in and over-lapping fullbacks providing the width.
So what the feck are you on about when you say he's relies on line-hugging wing play, this season and last?
United have always relied on wingers to create. That's generally (but not always) been our approach this season. Everton didn't even play with proper wingers.
But yeah, he can obviously only set up his teams to play one way
He might not have used proper wingers at Everton, but all his play came from the overlapping fullbacks crossing the ball in or just hoofs up to fellaini to knock the ball down. Similar to United this season.
Generally I expected him to try and get us playing at a higher tempo and be more aggressive at winning the ball back, which hasn't really happened. He's failed to find the right balance of players so far and there has been far too much rotation for my liking (especially of the back four).
It was an issue last season too. Thankfully, the sustained exceptional form of Carrick and RvP papered over the cracks. It's a bit mad the way that Nani and Valencia went from being hailed as the best wingers in the league to being at last chance saloon. Their age profile means they should be even better now than they were when they were at their best for United.
I kept expecting them to get their shit together but the fact they haven't has really crippled us.
That heat map clearly shows both wide midfielders tucking in and over-lapping fullbacks providing the width.
So what the feck are you on about when you say he's relies on line-hugging wing play, this season and last?
United have always relied on wingers to create. That's generally (but not always) been our approach this season. Everton didn't even play with proper wingers.
But yeah, he can obviously only set up his teams to play one way
Fullbacks aren't a part of wing play? Despite playing out on the wings...
I agree but their fans are doin me head in. Great club and surely great fans but sadly I haven´t met one. Hate them but that is probably down to them being so great in the 80s
It's not a crime at all. In fact every team in the world uses width and has great wingers. The difference is, they aren't being told to run to the byline and cross the ball in every time they get it, they look to pass it to players in the box, do give in go's, and generally pass their way around the pitch. That's a huge difference to how we cross the ball every time the wingers get it, or send a long ball out to valencia or Young (2 shit wingers anyway) to tell them to just run in straight lines. Moyes seems intent on playing them all the time regardless of form and hasn't changed anything regardless of how shit we've been. Surely that's a sign to change something, pretty drastically? We've been awful from back to front, and we're even letting teams like Cardiff control the game at our own backyard.
I think both will see their time up soon, and be playing less conventional wide players like Mata, Januzaj, Kagawa, Lingard etc. It makes it more important to get the right full backs to overlap though as we'll be playing more narrow.
Likes of Martinez have a very set system in mind and they've made their players adapt. From what Moyes has said he wanted to study his players first and adapt it to the strength of his players and bring in more to establish his team.
Which is fine if he does manage that but we'll need to see significant changes next season or he'll be gone by Christmas.
10 years of conservative and rigid play? I'm guessing you missed the 3 years at Madrid, and only watched the semi final against Barcelona when he was at Inter. Also probably only saw the away games to United and Arsenal that he played so far with Chelsea. He sets his team up according to what he wants, but they are very fluid going forward, and are actually quite good to watch. Just because they are solid defensively, doesn't make them a rigid team. We're more rigid then anyone in the top half right now but we're shite defensively.
We've been awful but i don't buy into Moyes telling the wingers to go to the byline. Kagawa on the left has drifted more than any winger in recent years and we've even seen Valencia come inside at times which never happened under Fergie.
Our midfield has just been shit so we're ridiculously reliant on wide areas.
Re width and full backs the Star are running a story saying that we are after Shaw and Coleman for £45m in the summer.
I dont think he is necessarily criticising Moyes hes just acknowledging the difference in managing style and outlook on football. As he said it makes the players excited to come into training the next day just to see what interesting new approaches the manager shows them. That kind of excitement breads confidence throughout a whole team.
Yeah, It's like we're playing the uninspiring Fergie football of recent seasons, only a real shit version of it.
Only just read the Howard article.
Ironic that those comments are being used as ammunition to criticise Moyes in the same week that there was a massive love-in about Mourinho, a manager renowned for obsessively preparing his team with gameplans unique to the opposition they face next.
Ironic that those comments are being used as ammunition to criticise Moyes in the same week that there was a massive love-in about Mourinho, a manager renowned for obsessively preparing his team with gameplans unique to the opposition they face next.
That'd be a colossal waste of money.
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