Moyes So Far!

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Cal? said:
You said one should always give manager time like players, I pointed out that players that are not good enough are not given time. Neither should managers who aren't good enough,
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Well you're talking bollocks I'm afraid. Players that end up being not good enough are often given time. In fact, it would be incredibly rare for a signing to be written off as quickly as many people on here have written Moyes off, no matter how badly they play.

Anyway, it was a loose analogy. The timeframes aren't directly comparable. I was just illustrating a simple point about how early impressions are often misleading. Didn't think I'd have to labour it to this extent. Oh well.
 
One thing that I guess we can all agree on is that signing Mata was one of the best things Moyes has done thus far and regardless of whether Moyes is here in the coming years or not, having Mata is huge.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well you're talking bollocks I'm afraid. Players that end up being not good enough are often given time. In fact, it would be incredibly rare for a signing to be written off as quickly as many people on here have written Moyes off, no matter how badly they play.

Anyway, it was a loose analogy. The timeframes aren't directly comparable. I was just illustrating a simple point about how early impressions are often misleading. Didn't think I'd have to labour it to this extent. Oh well.
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Players who are not good enough are SOMETIMES given time, mainly because they don't have to play every game and can rot in the reserves, we can't have Sir Alex back for 4 months and let Moyes rot in the reserves.

Anyway, do you think it was wrong for Liverpool to sack Woy? or Bayern to sack Klinnsmann when they did? Those are both comparable time frames and neither did any badly as Moyes has done so far.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not like you to take random speculation and immediately spin it to use as evidence that the manager is incompetent.

Oh wait. It is like you.

In fact, that would sum up almost every post you've made, all season long.
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:smirk:

Good afternoon to you too Pogue.

Seeing your humility and good cheer standing fast even in these trying times is a balm for the soul i can assure you.

I thought you were most reasonable in pouring a good doze of cold water on what appeared to be a mostly innocuous tweet from Rio. If he decides to break ranks over his opinion of Moyes i can't see him leaving room for doubt in his intentions.

Is it unreasonable then, to suggest that Moyes has made the task more difficult with the policies he has pursued in regard to certain players?
 
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Ryan's Beard said:
This is what I mean though. Of course we've looked shit but we've looked shit for a long while and as you say we've lost SAF on top of that. We've been playing one dimensional football for ages, too, and predicatable. Moyes needs time, like you say and he also needs more signings.
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He's had 7 months - that is more than enough time at least to see changes in a team. This does not mean we are playing scintillating football all the time but, there should at least be signs regardless of who is on the field.

He needs signings to compete against the top teams, specifically in the middle of the park.

He does NOT need signings to dominate against teams like Stoke, West Brom, Sunderland and quite a few other this season. He does NOT need signings to get his vision across unless the implication is that he cannot take the players we have and get them playing the way he wants us to, which is is damning on his ability as a manager.

The very least he can do is take the current group of players and get them playing in a manner that isn't one dimensional, even if it fails because the personnel are not good enough but, he has not even tried or if he has tried then he has failed miserably at it.

We may not have the players to go toe to toe against City, Chelsea and other big teams but, he should at the very least have us playing as a team with confidence and as a unit, which he has not been able to do.

People I think might be even fine with things getting worse if there were signs of what he is trying to do. The only thing right now we see is complaining about luck, claiming we played well in games we didn't actually play well in and the he needs time. To give him time there needs to be progress and in 7+ months there hasn't been any yet.
 
Tomalonge said:
But what does that have to do with when they sacked Hodgson? He wasn't even their previous manager.
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The point is that when he was sacked, Liverpool where in a bad place and looked to be going nowhere. Since then they have appointed a manager who looks like he's bringing them out of the dark ages.
Could Roy have turned it around? Maybe, he's not a bad manager, however sometimes a manager doesn't fit a club, much like a player, I'd put Roy in that category.
Sacking Roy and after that Daglish was the correct call by Liverpool.
 
Tomalonge said:
But what does that have to do with when they sacked Hodgson? He wasn't even their previous manager.
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I think people draw comparisons between Moyes and Hodgson as managers ( unfairly so imo). But there are some similarities in the way they manage. Both being given their big chance at a club (Hodgson was at inter but I think Liverpool was seen as a big opportunity for him). Both being given the opportunity of alot of spending money as well as being given the chance of rebuilding a side. Up to this point both have looked completely inept when being handed this task.
 
Getsme said:
The point is that when he was sacked, Liverpool where in a bad place and looked to be going nowhere. Since then they have appointed a manager who looks like he's bringing them out of the dark ages.
Could Roy have turned it around? Maybe, he's not a bad manager, however sometimes a manager doesn't fit a club, much like a player, I'd put Roy in that category.
Sacking Roy and after that Daglish was the correct call by Liverpool.
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As a pure stop-gap caretaker, perhaps. It very clearly was never a good idea to give him the job after the caretaker stint, though. One may then ask whether the owners had much of a clue what they were doing at all.

EDIT You meant sacking Dalglish was the correct decision. Which it was. But it doesn't reflect well on the owners that they gave him the job permanently in the first place. It was pandering to the fans, nothing else.
 
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mancan92 said:
I think people draw comparisons between Moyes and Hodgson as managers ( unfairly so imo). But there are some similarities in the way they manage. Both being given their big chance at a club (Hodgson was at inter but I think Liverpool was seen as a big opportunity for him). Both being given the opportunity of alot of spending money as well as being given the chance of rebuilding a side. Up to this point both have looked completely inept when being handed this task.
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Completely ignoring us being in the last 16 of the CL, having topped our group. Probably not down to Moyes though.
 
At least he's not lost his sense of humour. Look at him hamming it up.
BfzY8OnCIAAN_CJ.jpg:large
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
Im still unsure of how this thread differs from the 'Moyes so far' thread.
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This is where Moyes gets hacked with a meat-cleaver. The other thread is where he gets idolised with plenty of his supporters offering excuses ranging from zodiac, eclipse of the moon, the allignment of the stars, etc for his rotten luck.
 
mancan92 said:
I think people draw comparisons between Moyes and Hodgson as managers ( unfairly so imo). But there are some similarities in the way they manage. Both being given their big chance at a club (Hodgson was at inter but I think Liverpool was seen as a big opportunity for him). Both being given the opportunity of alot of spending money as well as being given the chance of rebuilding a side. Up to this point both have looked completely inept when being handed this task.
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Woy didn't have money to spend. He signed that shit left back in free but that was it IIRC.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
It's hard to tell if he has done anything to alienate the senior players, though - or if these players (we don't know who they are - but the reputable Andy Mitten has suggested there is indeed a problem here) have reacted poorly to having a new man in charge.

And then Vidic is a tricky one for me. I don't think we can rely on him being our main defensive strength anymore. If we offer him an extension he will have to be used in a backup role in my opinion. We should have a first choice CB partnership - I think that is a key to stabilizing the back four (and it needs stabilizing). Vidic isn't the man to go to in this regard. It may not be the worst idea to let him go at this stage.
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Yes i recall the Mitten article, what precisely is driving the disillusionment likely varies from player to player, yet broadly speaking we do have a bit of a problem.

As for Vidic, i believe it is concerning that we will see the departure of quite so many players in the summer and many of experience at that. I concur that Nemanja would have to expect a lesser role in the team with any contract making this clear, however i do think that his continued presence would be valuable and one which we should attempt to maintain. If the club makes a decent push yet it is still time part ways, farewell and good luck.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
As a pure stop-gap caretaker, perhaps. It very clearly was never a good idea to give him the job after the caretaker stint, though. One may then ask whether the owners had much of a clue what they were doing at all.

EDIT You meant sacking Dalglish was the correct decision. Which it was. But it doesn't reflect well on the owners that they gave him the job permanently in the first place. It was pandering to the fans, nothing else.
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Dalglish was made permanent, mostly because he had a good half season, as caretaker. Wasn't it like 3rd best team, if the season start in Jan. or something? Also why their owners trusted him to spend almost 80m.
 
Revan said:
Woy didn't have money to spend. He signed that shit left back in free but that was it IIRC.
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True but that whole period of a couple years seemed both Roy and Kenny had been given alot of backing financially. Or there was alot of talk about it.
Rednotdead said:
Completely ignoring us being in the last 16 of the CL, having topped our group. Probably not down to Moyes though.
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He has done well so far but tbh we havent been tested really. Even olympiakos should be an easy win. But its against the better teams we can then say. But yes so far he has done well and probably our best performances of the season have come from there.
 
mancan92 said:
True but that whole period of a couple years seemed both Roy and Kenny had been given alot of backing financially. Or there was alot of talk about it.

He has done well so far but tbh we havent been tested really. Even olympiakos should be an easy win. But its against the better teams we can then say. But yes so far he has done well and probably our best performances of the season have come from there.
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So not really completely inept then.
 
Isotope said:
Dalglish was made permanent, mostly because he had a good half season, as caretaker. Wasn't it like 3rd best team, if the season start in Jan. or something? Also why their owners trusted him to spend almost 80m.
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Well, hindsight is obviously 20-20 and all that. But I thought at the time that giving the job to Kenny was a disastrous decision, him having been out of the game for so long. I don't think it was a well informed decision. It proved to be the case too - and I don't consider myself a genius, I reckon tons of people thought it was a hopeless decision, including many scousers. Steering the ship to port after Woy was relatively easy. He had the whole organization on his side, obviously - but he wasn't cut out for managing a modern era team with millions to burn on players. It was fairly obvious, I'd say - and as such the appointment speaks of extremely poor judgment on the part of those who appointed him.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
Im still unsure of how this thread differs from the 'Moyes so far' thread.
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This is hopefully the one where someone posts an article stating that the United board have given Moyes "the" vote of confidence and I start running around cheering with relief.

Anyway, big e-hug to you because you're the first person I've replied to since reading the "be nice to people" thread. :D
 
Anyone else think defeat on Sunday will make his position untenable?
 
mancan92 said:
True but that whole period of a couple years seemed both Roy and Kenny had been given alot of backing financially. Or there was alot of talk about it.
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When Woy was manager Liverpool was in a court about the ownership and he didn't had a penny to spend.

He was sacked briefly after Henry bought the club. Kenny was backed (he signed Suarez, Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adma for around 100m) which if we look today isn't as bad as looked at the time (they recouped around 25m from the sell of Carroll, Downing and Henderson, while Suarez has become one of the best players in the world and Henderson has become a very good midfielder). I think that if they want they can sell Suarez in summer for 75m which would recoup the entire Kenny's signing.
 
stubie said:
Anyone else think defeat on Sunday will make his position untenable?
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If we lost comprehensively, say 0-3, then I think the pressure might become too much. I think we'll win though, Fulham are really bad.
 
Revan said:
When Woy was manager Liverpool was in a court about the ownership and he didn't had a penny to spend.

He was sacked briefly after Henry bought the club. Kenny was backed (he signed Suarez, Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adma for around 100m) which if we look today isn't as bad as looked at the time (they recouped around 25m from the sell of Carroll, Downing and Henderson, while Suarez has become one of the best players in the world and Henderson has become a very good midfielder). I think that if they want they can sell Suarez in summer for 75m which would recoup the entire Kenny's signing.
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Ah true. Thanks for the refresh. I still believe that many find similarities between Roy and Moyes in terms of how they got the job and how they have done so far and their mannerisms.
 
Cal? said:
I do like Mata, but it doesn't take anyone special to rate Mata and I doubt we can (or the Glazers will) give him a budget to sign 30-40m signings for every position we need to fill.

The bolded ones are not good enough for United, and neither is Fellaini.
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Do you think he had the money to sign world class players? Point of the bolded ones is that he got great players on whatever budget he was given. Absolutely no reason to think he won't make good signing at united, except 'gut feelings' from people
 
Whatever happens against Fulham, the only way he's leaving mid-season is if he resigns, and I don't see any signs of that.
 
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