Only a couple of seasons back people whee saying Terry should be sold for glue due to a chronic back injury. People are far too hasty to write off quality defenders who have an iffy season and happen to be the wrong side of 30.
Moyes So Far!
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Only a couple of seasons back people whee saying Terry should be sold for glue due to a chronic back injury. People are far too hasty to write off quality defenders who have an iffy season and happen to be the wrong side of 30.
Which is what's been happening to Terry before this season?
Why is it absurd? He's a young world class player. Are we to ignore his performances for Valencia and Chelsea just because he's joined United?
We've been crying out imo, for an extra body in midfield, if that means playing 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 then so be it. If as people seem to believe our midfield isn't good enough, why inflate the issue by still only playing 2 there?
I think the biggest problem with the pair of them may be that they are precisely the sort of player Andy Mitten referred to recently*: big name veterans who aren't really behind Moyes. Shipping them out may be necessary, regardless of whether they can in theory still be of some value on the pitch (and they clearly can - at least Vidic).
* They could be that - I'm not saying they positively are.
Vidic has been iffy since last season. Rio started last season and them improved. But this 1 he has been even worse. I don't believe Moyes can rely on them at half mast form when he is on the line to deliver results and when they are both culpable for making one of his greatest strengths as a manager fail to be implemented. I'm not writting them off. I'm just being a realist. There is no way their future is secure with the current progress of the team. And if new personel are to be added to strengthen the rare, you can't be expecting the younger turks at the back to be the ones to make way.
I suspect that's the case. If we're going to back Moyes to the hilt then we have to get rid of players who aren't motivated enough to play for him.
I already told you. It takes more than two games for a team to change it's style of play. You've claimed that the signing of Mata belatedly gives Moyes the personnel to try and play a bit more through the middle. Well, perhaps shockingly, it will take the team and the manager more than two games to get the best out of Mata (and for him to get used to playing with his new team-mates)
Also worth noting that he's already created one very nice goal. Through the middle.
Exactly.
Well it certainly seems Rio has been intimating...albeit not always subtely..that he doesn't seem to be happy with Moyes, and the later can certainly do without that at this moment...
Pogue is back, woohoo!
Maybe someone needs to tell Rio we aren't exactly happy with his contribution this season.
I've already told you. We've been needing an extra man in midfield all season. In case you didn't notice, we still lost against Stoke and we still played dross football. I'd also much prefer to see Mata play in a position he knows, i.e. On the left or in the middle, rather than his starting position which was on the right. Even though he ignored the right wing for much of the game and drifted in the middle anyway. Resulting in a huge open space on the right for much of the game.
Think the fact that he's been dropped and I imagine the fact that he is off this summer means someone already has. He's probably a bit bitter but he is clearly past it now.
The Rio undermining Moyes stuff is being blown out of all proportion. His most recent tweet was just standard chat about football. One manager gets sacked, who's next? Big deal. Anyway, the manager whose head is most obviously in the firing line is the manager Rio will next play against, not for.
Except for last season, when he played over 2000 mins and was on the whole a good defender for us and played well. Played like over 2000mins too which is a lot of football for someone who's had back injury problems.
You'd rather he played in the position he... played...
Here's a thought. Maybe the patch of grass that players stand on when the ball is kicked off doesn't necessarily represent where they've been asked to play for the rest of the game?
That post is a great example of post where someone is absolutely determined to blame Moyes for a bad result, no matter how tortuous the logic, that has been stinking this place out for months.
Agreed with that, some even predicted this would happen as soon as he tweeted it. Just the media finding a story in a relatively dull week.
Good post. This is exactly it. How to judge it. If I had to guess, I think he's tried a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but not had a clear philosophy that he's stuck to. Again, this is difficult to measure and I (and most) can only go by what we see in terms of performances. If he were steadfastly endeavoring to implement a particular philosophy it would be clearer if there were one of two indicators: a) we'd see the signs of it on the pitch, b) he would say so in the media in some of the numerous pre-match and post-match interviews when things haven't gone our way. But the worry I have, as some others, is that he'll say we performed well when we haven't, when it would be more reassuring to hear that we are some way off but we are adapting to a new style or something akin to that.
I concede that it's very likely that he'll be manager come the start of next season and that he'll be properly judged mid-way through that. But I still worry that he's not the right fit.
If he's definitely here at the start of next season I'd rather see evidence that he's implementing a philosophy for future progress than somehow clutching fourth in the league (though the former may bring about the latter).
So maybe his injury worries and lack of form are down to over use last season. The same thing we say about Evra's overuse due to not having a backup either Moyes or SAF trusted. Fans are moaning about Moyes selling Fabio, but SAF didn't trust him either for some reason.
you'd rather he played in the position he... played...
You're gas.
Here's a thought. Maybe the patch of grass that players stand on when the ball is kicked off don't necessarily represent where they've been asked to play in for the rest of the game?
That post is a great example of post where someone is absolutely determined to have a go at Moyes, no matter how tortuous the logic, that has been stinking this place out for months.
What's the issue? I watched the game against Stoke. Mata started on the right, then drifted in the middle. Which left Rafa the only United body for large periods on the right. It's not rocket science that Adam then started to have an increased presence in the game by playing down our right side.
You're just deflecting everything Pogue. I've not seen on criticism of Dave in any of your posts. You've come on here today as an excuse to flame people. Oh and don't bring petty insults into this mate, they're not allowed.
If that's the case, then perhaps he shouldn't have started so many games at the start of the season? Ditching Rio would be a bad idea imo unless he's challenging Dave's authority in the dressing room. We can't afford to lose both Vidic and Rio in the same transfer window.
Maybe the board need to ask these players what the problem is and if they want to play for another club, make them realise that they can be and will be sold if they don't get their heads out of their arses. It might buck them up, as some will never play for a club as big as us if they left. OK Vidic is rumoured to be going to Inter, well sorry I don't think going there is bettering yourself.
What's the issue? I watched the game against Stoke. Mata started on the right, then drifted in the middle. Which left Rafa the only United body for large periods on the right. It's not rocket science that Adam then started to have an increased presence in the game by playing down our right side.
You're just deflecting everything Pogue. I've not seen on criticism of Dave in any of your posts. You've come on here today as an excuse to flame people. Oh and don't bring petty insults into this mate, they're not allowed.
Post edited. For sensitive souls.
So now you're saying that Mata actually shouldn't have played central, as this leaves our fullback exposed. Perhaps Moyes should have played with an out and out winger instead? Oh wait. You've said you want to see him change this style of football, didn't you? Anyway, do your or do you not want to see Mata playing in the centre? You're flip flopping like crazy here.
You really are tying yourself in knots with your constant efforts to blame Moyes for everything that went wrong in the game, so there's not much point taking this further.
Although, to be fair, you've been outright hostile to Moyes ever since he got the job. So it's to be expected that you will be constantly nit-picking and your opinions on the manager should largely be ignored.
In a way, that's preferable to the more insidious stuff from people who claim that they were willing to give him their backing and a fair crack of the whip only to turn on him with indecent haste at the first sign of adversity.
Moyes should have played Mata left and Young right. It would have made far better use of his current style of play. The cutting in didn't help us one bit again Stoke. If they had been allowed to cross from their natural sides the results surely would have been far better
I'm actually one of the 40% of people who thinks he needs backing in the Summer window. So yeah, wrong again and I've defended Dave for long periods but that doesn't mean I can't point out when I think he's been wrong and highlight his faults. Just like I applaud Dave when he gets things right. Not everything is as black and white as you try to paint it.I don't mind us playing with wingers, but I do mind when all of our play comes down the wings. Understand? Kagawa started on the left last season but stayed relatively in position through matches (didn't drift in the middle). Mata against Stoke did drift. That's one of the reasons why we lost the game. No matter who you play against, if you provide that much open space, they will punish you.
Please continue with your crusade though, you're providing me with good lunch time entertainment.
I think we may have to. And I don't think it will be that a dramatic a loss either - not necessarily. It looks increasingly like Vidic has to be managed carefully (like Rio in the past few seasons) and this isn't ideal for a new manager who wants to/needs to establish a first choice CB partnership for the sake of stability (I really believe this is necessary). If Vidic is fine with being used sparingly, as a back-up option, then I'll gladly see him stay. But I'm not sure that would suit him.
Moyes needs to either a) come up with a first choice pair from Smalling, Evans and Jones - or he needs to go out and buy himself a new main man for the CB role, pair him up with Smalling, Evans or Jones, and use the other two as back-ups. Vidic could work as a back-up option in the first scenario. But again the question is whether he'd be happy with such a demotion. I just don't see him as the most important piece in that back four anymore - and that makes it alright to let him go in my opinion.
Rio is as good as gone anyway - I'd be extremely surprised if he's offered a new contract, or even wants one.
I am afraid you are wrong here. After 24 games (last season) we had 59 poins (7 more than City last year) which means that with the same results we would have been in the first place again this season (4 more points than Arsenal, 6 more points than City/Chelsea).
Edit: It was funny how you used the proffesor diagram as an incorrect stats that he used to prove something, and then in the next post you used an incorrect stat in ordert to give the perception that our results are ok compared to last season.
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Wow, what an amzing prediction. Those people must be so very smart!
Rio might well have been genuine (maybe not) when making that tweet but it was a daft thing to do because people will obviously link it to Moyes.
Haha!
It's a concern for me because that will take a pretty big hit on the dressing room experience. Giggs will mostly retire in the summer, Evra looks likely he'll also leave. Vidic and Ferdinand both leaving will result us losing our 4 most experienced players in one window. Carrick would then be our oldest player in the squad. I think that's too much experience gone imo. Ferguson was always one to talk about the balance of the squad, I think the balance would be shifted to having too many young players in the above scenario. We're already short on the 'prime players' aged 25-29.
It'll be interesting to see how the squad develops in the summer.
Don't think he's suggesting that to be fair, only that he's been quite decent with transfers.
Wow, what an amzing prediction. Those people must be so very smart!
Rio might well have been genuine (maybe not) when making that tweet but it was a daft thing to do because people will obviously link it to Moyes.
I'm delighted to have Pogue back from injury, it's almost like a new signing, and he will strengthen us in areas we have been struggling in of late.
As for mata's position, it's not that relevant. Our football has been atrocious this season. The passing, intelligence and cohesion in absolutely off. That's been the biggest let down from Moyes.
Yes - the loss of experience is a worry, no doubt. But then - if these experienced aren't fully behind the new manager keeping them on board will actually be harmful. Perhaps a clearing-out of the old guard is just what Moyes needs - even if it will be at the cost of experience.
You've managed to COMPLETELY miss my point. I was talkin about where we would be with this season's points in last season's table. Thanks for backing up my initial rant in this thread.
But will I drift, moses. Will I drift? No point getting someone in if they drift?
Depends for me. If it's as obvious behind the scenes as it is coming across in results, that Moyes isn't good enough then he should go. If they're the bad element that is hurting him from implement his own ideas them they should.
Agreed, if they're not behind the manager then they need to go. It's still a concern, when you list our their names, all 4 are very much the leaders in the dressing room. Which suggests that we might be looking to bring in some more experienced players in the summer. I said it a few months ago we should be looking at players aged around 25-28 when I thought Evra, Giggs, Nani and Anderson would be off. But add in Vidic and Ferdinand and we'll certainly need to bring in a number of experienced players. So we'll probably see some pretty big names come through the doors.
Aye, I don't disagree with that. But it's the same old thing - we don't have the full picture. Another thing is that the whole trio of Evra, Vidic and Rio may want to leave at this stage - for various reasons. It could've happened under any manager, really.
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