Of course it is. People aren't blind.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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So why is he good enough for United?
Precisely.
Deadly serious!!
Oh come on, it's entertaining as hell!
Before all this, we had mundane topics about how are young players are going to be great, how great we are, how great Fergie is etc....And the worst it got was people losing it if we lost a match and people been labelled kneejerks..
Now, we have people starting threads about Cathy Ferguson asking what she has that we don't
Yes. I often think it's all dependent on how the rest of their lives are going. The guy next to me had had an awful row with his wife before coming to the match, argued with his teenage daughter and had had a crap day at work. There wasn't a player, coach or manager that didn't get both barrels that evening......and we lost, so goodness knows what happened when he went home....
You just need to keep remembering how short a period of time 6 months is in football.
You'd be laughed at (or you should be) for writing off any new signing just 6 months into his United career. Why do the same for the new manager? @SteveJ made a brilliant post the other week about how different the terrain looked at this equivalent point in last season. Arsenal were on a downward spiral, with even the most loyal gooners calling for his head. Brendon Rogers was the butt of David Brent jokes and couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag. Jordan Henderson was a laughing stock, just like Aaron Ramsey etc. etc. etc.
That's what I mean about reserving judgement. If your mind was genuinely not made up about Moyes before he started the job, the least you can do is reserve judgement (by this I mean, not making any definitive statements about whether he is up to the job or not) for a whole season. I'm actually going to give him until this time next season before making my final decision on whether he can hack it at United. Can understand why other may not wait that long though.
I'll think you will find he came here with 100% backing from all the fans, even those that didnt want him. He himself has let us down. I didnt mind him coming here but he has been awful.
No many moaned constantly. A particular zombie thread springs to mindDeadly serious!!
Oh come on, it's entertaining as hell!
Before all this, we had mundane topics about how are young players are going to be great, how great we are, how great Fergie is etc....And the worst it got was people losing it if we lost a match and people been labelled kneejerks..
Now, we have people starting threads about Cathy Ferguson asking what she has that we don't
Zombie? I wouldn't know. I'm a good poster
Deadly serious!!
Oh come on, it's entertaining as hell!
Before all this, we had mundane topics about how are young players are going to be great, how great we are, how great Fergie is etc....And the worst it got was people losing it if we lost a match and people been labelled kneejerks..
Now, we have people starting threads about Cathy Ferguson asking what she has that we don't
yeah...it actually is such a fun place at the moment. People are spitting feathers and frothing at the mouth..which is why if we lose to Fulham this weekend...I'll be straight here
This is a new experience for many on here, so there is a fever of debate going on, which is fun (not all amazing I grant you..but some are pretty dam good). Plus Niall has highlighted a code of conduct..which has actually helped a bit with the bland "your're just a cnut" type replies
Why don't you try to disseminate everton, spurs, and liverpool play, i believe it will still show that we are behijd in tactical department, forget chrlsea, arse and city, they're on a differemt planet.
I'm probably willing to wait, yeah. I wouldn't sack him now, but I'm unsure if that's only because I feel there's a lack of another option right now. He has inspired absolutely no confidence in me thus far. He's far from the idiot some have portrayed him to be, and I appreciate he is working hard. I just feel the poster's knocking any criticism of Moyes can become as tiresome as the poster's calling for his head. This is a two way street. I think it's raised great debate this season on RedCafe too, I've enjoyed this site during this season more than past seasons.
That is plainly not true as far as the Caf is concerned - and that's what we were talking about. The match going fans are a different kettle of fish, we all know this. The majority on the Caf did not want Moyes - and many have not been able to get behind him at all. The negativity surfaced before a ball had been kicked - it has mounted since, but it has been there from day one.
Just out of interest. How did you, personally, demonstrate your 100% backing for the new manager?
But how many are actually doing that? You have maybe a very small number and the rest of us are saying "it's too early to judge" rather than saying that he's definitely going to be a success.
If it's a number game, I'd be interested to know the proportion of those constantly slagging off Moyes vs those that do not?
I'd imagine the vast majority on here are in the former camp. Either that or they post more often. There's definitely far far more posts bemoaning his incompetence (or simply taking the piss* out of him) than there are calling for patience (which are blatantly in the minority)
*can we say piss?
yeah...it actually is such a fun place at the moment. People are spitting feathers and frothing at the mouth..which is why if we lose to Fulham this weekend...I'll be straight here
This is a new experience for many on here, so there is a fever of debate going on, which is fun (not all amazing I grant you..but some are pretty dam good). Plus Niall has highlighted a code of conduct..which has actually helped a bit with the bland "your're just a cnut" type replies
I wish he'd do something about the "Oh go support Chelsea or City" and "You would have wanted Fergie sacked"
A fecking essay I wrote, a well written essay that got my points across as to why I don't rate Moyes, and that's the response I get!
No debate, no questions, no response....Nothing! Just "Oh go support City then"
Twats
There are plenty of poster's who have aggressively defended Moyes, no matter how warranted the criticism. I've seen poster's labeled spoiled plenty of times for expressing concern. My point is that this is a two way street right now, there's an equal level of moronic posting going on on all sides of the Moyes debate, including those who are reserving judgement... Those less impressed with Moyes seem to receiving the blunt of the abuse.
To be fair the caf has been pretty civil regarding this debacle of a season, the 'hostility' has only really picked up since the Stoke result.
If you want a laugh go on the United facebook page and read the comments there.
If you want a laugh go on the United facebook page and read the comments there.
I've got to say I've invested more time into United this season than in recent years. The changes are interesting and it's somehow exciting to have a new era. I don't think the last few seasons excluded the posters of whom you speak. Matchday threads a case in point. There was also something about SAF that caused a divide, in the sense that some felt he was beyond criticism. Though of course it is indisputable that he did an incredible job. There is no such thing with Moyes - although some do defend him wholeheartedly for the reason SAF appointed him. That's actually not a sound argument.
It's not as if he's Benitez at Chelsea being booed.
@Pogue Mahone
I agree that the tone of some posts is more exaggerated and our style is sometimes ridiculed, but a common consensus seems to be that there are numerous things that contribute to our downfall - players not performing, Gill leaving, the SAF factor, change in coaching staff, rivals improving and Moyes being out of depth. I also see criticism of the club for not preparing better, including thereby the owners and the board.
I don't think anyone thinks Moyes is 100% responsible for our season so far. But given what you mention, the colossal event of SAF leaving, don't you think in light of that, had we appointed a proven manager with supreme confidence in his own abilities, it would have been a less troubled shift? I also don't think the criticism leveled at Moyes would be so rich in volume if there were any indications that he was looking to take one step back in order to take two steps forward in the near future, i.e. changing our style..
Welcome back from your hibernation
The trouble is that both sides of the debate accuse the other of doing just the same things as they themselves are doing. Much the same as the Rooney debate this past summer.
The best way to counter the obnoxious "go support city" crowd is to tell them to go support FC United since they're so self-righteous.
I'm too old for facebook......
The problem I have with the 'too early to judge' crowd are the constantly moving goalposts throughout the season. How are we meant to judge him if the definition of success or competence keeps being watered down?
To be fair to Pogue, he was one of the very few posters who at the start of the season was willing to contemplate that we may drop out of the top four this season and that even then Moyes shouldn't necessarily be sacked. Others have fallen back to this position after initially insisting that it was inconceivable we would't make top 4, or that we would definitely be in a better position after whichever easy run of fixtures was coming up.
good response
I just ignore those type of replies really..usually people who can't follow or understand a debate...
I'll be reporting such posts to be frank. I've had enough of them, from both sides of the coin. It's just as insulting as being called a 'Google unhappy word'.
I've got to say I've invested more time into United this season than in recent years. The changes are interesting and it's somehow exciting to have a new era. I don't think the last few seasons excluded the posters of whom you speak. Matchday threads a case in point. There was also something about SAF that caused a divide, in the sense that some felt he was beyond criticism. Though of course it is indisputable that he did an incredible job. There is no such thing with Moyes - although some do defend him wholeheartedly for the reason SAF appointed him. That's actually not a sound argument.
It's not as if he's Benitez at Chelsea being booed.
@Pogue Mahone
I agree that the tone of some posts is more exaggerated and our style is sometimes ridiculed, but a common consensus seems to be that there are numerous things that contribute to our downfall - players not performing, Gill leaving, the SAF factor, change in coaching staff, rivals improving and Moyes being out of depth. I also see criticism of the club for not preparing better, including thereby the owners and the board.
I don't think anyone thinks Moyes is 100% responsible for our season so far. But given what you mention, the colossal event of SAF leaving, don't you think in light of that, had we appointed a manager with supreme confidence in his own abilities, it would have been a less troubled shift? I also don't think the criticism leveled at Moyes would be so rich in volume if there were any indications that he was looking to take one step back in order to take two steps forward in the near future, i.e. changing our style..
Welcome back from your hibernation
Absolutely. I presume it's Mourinho you;re getting at.right? I'm 100% certain we'd be better off this season with Mourinho in charge. Fergie left huge boots to fill and Mourinho would be far better at filling them - in the short term anyway- than Moyes. He'd have been my pick for the job, that's for sure. Even though he annoys the hell out of me.
What annoys me, though, is the fact that Moyes seems to be getting stick on the basis that he isn't Jose Mourinho. What's done is done. Moyes got the United job. Mourinho didn't. The only question now is whether Moyes might turn out to be an astute appointment in the longer term. That's still very possible and that's what I'm hoping will happen. Short term pain, long term gain. Meanwhile, Moyes is getting enough stick for who he is. Incredibly unfair to also give him stick for who he isn't.
True, and I think this is a large part of the problem and overall negativity at the moment. I remember at the beginning of his tenure thinking that, whilst he is not necessarily the right man for the job in my opinion, I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt to prove he is, and I'd be willing to settle for 3rd/4th place in order to let that happen. It really was unfathomable to me that we could actually finish outside the top four, that's why now, it's becoming sort of impossible to stick to those thoughts I had at the start, to not go back to my early negativity before he was appointed, to not think "this is wrong, he's not capable of managing us".
Are we supposed to simply forgo these early opinions and predictions and lower them even further now just to try and make excuses for him? I don't know.
Yeah, true.
There's no right or wrong side to the debate right now. And to be honest, as time passes I'd love to be proved wrong. I genuinely would.
Who wouldn't? I'd gladly take back all I've said about him....Then again, I've never rated him so I've 12 years worth of stuff to take back
Well firstly a lot of people were of a mind that he needed to be given time to do the job before judging him. Whether those are even the same people as those you suggest are "moving the goalposts" I don't know, so that may be a red herring.
But I also think you have to be able to reassess as the season goes on and you have a more informed basis on which to make your judgements. Personally when he was hired Moyes wouldn't have been my choice. But I was willing to accept that having made the choice to hire him the right thing to do - in the absence of being convince that he's not the right man for the job, which I haven't been as of yet - was to afford him the time to build the team he wanted to, as unpalatable as that may be to some people. That said, as the season's gone on the doubts I've had, based on what I've seen, have grown, though not to the point where I think it can't be turned around. So of course people will change their minds. For many the situation is much worse than they previously believed, so it would be very hard-headed to ignore that just because it doesn't tally with your view earlier in the season. In the context of the current situation expectations are obviously going to be altered. I don't think that changes the overall expectations for the club going forward, namely that we compete for, and win, trophies.
I remember arguing the toss about this earlier in the season. You can't look at United in isolation. The teams around us have all improved dramatically. Our currrent points tally - at this point last season - would have had us in 5th place, 3 points (I think?) off 3rd, with 4th very much in our sights.
Now, should Moyes be held responsible for the other teams around us all playing so much better than they did last season?
Which is not to say we haven't been shite. We have. I'm just addressing this idea that a top four finish is the be all and end all for Moyes' first season in charge.
Depends, we took points off those teams last year.
No, but he can be held responsible for failing to strengthen as our rivals did. Although I appreciate he had to give everyone a chance before ringing in the changes.
Disagree. There were certainly a lot of people who didn't want Moyes but the vast majority of them (us) made it clear they'd support him. That said, it's only natural that their patience would break before that of those who actually wanted Moyes.
It's not like thinking Moyes needs to go is an unreasonable point either. Things have gone far, far worse than we'd have imagined before the season started. There are a lot of very reasonable and logical reasons to suggest Moyes is out of his depth and that no amount of patience will fix things. Personally I'm still willing to be patient but it's hardly surprising others aren't.
Certainly a fair point, but then, we actually have a point less than Everton did at this stage last season, with a far inferior squad. Certainly Moyes should be doing better than that, no? Definitely he's unfortunate that the other teams are all probably at their best for years now but is that a big enough excuse to be around 15-20 points worse off right now than we were last season, especially when the majority of those points dropped could've been avoided by beating opposition we should be beating. I'd excuse him results against the big teams, not really against those though.
And you could also argue that he made a bollocks of the transfer window which is one of the key reasons our rivals have caught up.
Really a squad like this (regardless of its many faults) just should not be lower than fourth, regardless of the other top teams.
That's not true though. He's getting stick for:
- Our results since Jan 1st
- Our style of football
I think quite a few people put that as a disclaimer at the end of posts saying they didn't want him. And it was utterly hollow. Simply saying the words doesn't mean anything if you're utterly negative about almost everything he does.
True. For me, that's more a criticism of the club than of Moyes. Every criticism leveled at Moyes, IMV, is also criticism leveled at the board. I'm more worried about the ability of our board/owners than by Moyes, purely because I think the transition which was looming for years was handled quite badly.
I hope he can turn it around, but like I say, it's hard to have faith when there are no indications. When properly argued for, I do admire your patience though. For me it's not a feeling of entitlement, it's not the not winning, it's just not seeing positive indications for future progression. Also, given how much there's been to talk about this season, your hibernation must rank as some sort of a high-level sorcery or zen-style discipline
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