Moyes So Far!

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Before the start of the season if you have predicted 4th behind Arsenal most people will have laughed.

The issue here is that Mourinho has got his player exceeding the expectation whilst Moyes has ours underperforming. Remember Terry last season? or Luiz? Were the the envy of our champions? if you want to talk about decline, hasn't Terry got older too?

Nobody can sensibly deny this. I was one of the many saying Terry's knees were gone last season, yet this year with Mou back he's had a new lease of life. The best managers know how to get people playing their best.
 
Agree with this. What really screwed that side was selling Hughes and replacing him with Peter Davenport as well as the big names always being a bit to injury prone and some dodgy signings in the summer of 86. Bailey getting a career ending injury was also a blow but I can't fault Gary Walsh too much in his EARLY years for the club before he suffered that horrible injury.

Atkinson did do a good job at United but the start to that season was just too much. There were still plenty of good players at the club but we needed a good striker to replace Hughes, which Fergie covered with the signing of McClair who was the first striker for United in my lifetime who scord 20 odd goals in the league for United.

No Co-incidence that what was still largely Atkinson's side finished second Fergie's first full season.

It was a potentially very good side with some truly excellent players in it. There was a problem with "attitudes", no question about it, and we all know that one of Fergie's first big tasks was to address this. Big Ron had let things slide (he wasn't the only manager in the English top flight to do this, feck knows - things were very different back then) and he'd also allowed a "favourite" culture develop at the club which was anything but productive in the long run.

This is historically interesting - perhaps even significant - but it isn't something to bring up here and now, as people will regard anything and everything in a Moyes light, so to speak. The two cases can't be compared like for like and nobody in his right mind would do so either.

For the second time tonight I'll do something I'd never do sober. Fecking bullet points.

  • Moyes inherited a squad that was no doubt better than the one Fergie inherited.
  • Fergie didn't inherit a pub team. There were plenty of very good footballers in Big Ron's side and the team as such was obviously MUCH better than the table position suggested at the time of the take-over.
  • What most reasonable people mean when they refer to Fergie's first seasons as an apt comparison is simply that even the best of 'em don't get everything right straight away. It's an analogy of sorts. It isn't a formula: "Every manager, no matter who he is, should be given at least five years, and then he WILL win the league and everything else in sight..." er, yes, this is NOT what most so-called Moyes apologists mean when they point to Fergie and his first years as a United manager. It ain't a formula - it's just an analogy, meant to illustrate that being patient may indeed get you somewhere. The key word being MAY.
  • If you have already decided that Moyes is shite such analogies will probably do nothing but vex you and possibly make your head hurt. In which case you should probably ignore 'em.
  • Regardless of what your head is like you should realize one thing (which is pretty fecking obvious, really): Fergie didn't take over from Fergie having been in charge for a quarter of a century. Nobody has done that. Except for Moyes. His task is unprecedented in that respect. Might be worth keeping in mind.
Oh, and I do apologize for the bullet points. I can't defend it, really - but I am drunk. Strange how good bullet points look to the intoxicated eye. I normally hate 'em with a vengeance.

Peace, mothers.
 
Disagree!!

95% of this forum were on a hard on this time last year discussing how great our team is going to be and how players like Welbeck, Cleverely, Jones, De Gea, Kagawa and Rafael are going to turn into world class players and continue to lead us to success.

What's changed about them players now?
just because everyone on a forum says something doesn't mean its true. Look at right now, everyone on a forum says Moyes is brain dead and will never turn things around - they could well be wrong
 
Fair enough, I just think this could have all been avoided if we appointed Mourinho who would have hit the ground running.

I also firming believe he doesn't have what it takes and am more worried about the state of our squad with him doing the buying.
You don't like Mata? What do you think of Arteta/Baines/Coleman/Mirallas/Jagielka? I honestly think he's been very, very consistent in the transfer market over the years, so it's probably the absolute least of our worries.
 
he openly discussed moving away from both inter and real while at the club. Imagine he managed us for two seasons and then mid season said he wanted to go back to spain and manage barcelona
He'd never manage Barcelona, everyone at the club despises him.

Worse comes to worst he leaves us mid-contract and we get a big pay off from his new club, and we replace him with another top class manager. Not to mention the success he'd likely have brought us during the time he did spend here. There's a good chance we'd have got 5+ years out of him anyway, he's managed in the major leagues now and there's not many places for him to go other than managing Portugal which he'll want to leave towards the end of his career.
 
just because everyone on a forum says something doesn't mean its true. Look at right now, everyone on a forum says Moyes is brain dead and will never turn things around - they could well be wrong

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough....

My point was, this time last year, this was the opinion of most on here. Now, the people who back Moyes have changed their opinion on them and said they're not good enough and Fergie should be blamed for handing him these players as they are not good enough....

What has changed about these players that people have just giving up on them?

For the record, I do not rate Cleverley at all
 
Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough....

My point was, this time last year, this was the opinion of most on here. Now, the people who back Moyes have changed their opinion on them and said they're not good enough and Fergie should be blamed for handing him these players as they are not good enough....

What has changed about these players that people have just giving up on them?

For the record, I do not rate Cleverley at all
I haven't given up on many (I would prefer if some left so we could play a different style, eg Valencia). I think our team last year was poor but dragged through games by some brilliant management no doubt and some brilliant rvp goals. On paper the team wasn't terrible either, De Gea Rafa Rio Vidic Evra Valencia Carrick Clevz Young Rooney RVP. How often have we started that strong a team this season though. I guess I'm saying that a) Yes Moyes isn't getting the best out of Clevz and Valencia like Fergie did, they were fergies players and he knew them better than anyone and B) That the decline of Vida Rio and Evra is partly due to losing Fergie, but also partly just to just age and not totally moyes fault.

I'm sure if Mourinho had of come in this year he would have gotten better stuff out of Pat/Vida/Rio. But I don't think that's the case with any other reasonable managerial targets.

For the record I wanted Mourinho. Think he's the best manager in the world. But I don't think Moyes is entirely to blame for not coming 1st, I think he's entirely to blame for not being in 4th place + the worst injuries of the top teams and some undeniable bad luck in games. I don't think it's as bad as people say really. For some reason, when we win by a goal or 2 we 'were lucky' and when we lose by a goal (we almost never lose by more than a goal) we were 'outplayed'. People said we were outplayed vs sunderland and they had their first shot on target in the 119th minute, that's madness for me
 
He'd never manage Barcelona, everyone at the club despises him.

Worse comes to worst he leaves us mid-contract and we get a big pay off from his new club, and we replace him with another top class manager. Not to mention the success he'd likely have brought us during the time he did spend here. There's a good chance we'd have got 5+ years out of him anyway, he's managed in the major leagues now and there's not many places for him to go other than managing Portugal which he'll want to leave towards the end of his career.
it was just an example. Clearly the powers that be at united don't like this disrespect
 
It was a potentially very good side with some truly excellent players in it. There was a problem with "attitudes", no question about it, and we all know that one of Fergie's first big tasks was to address this. Big Ron had let things slide (he wasn't the only manager in the English top flight to do this, feck knows - things were very different back then) and he'd also allowed a "favourite" culture develop at the club which was anything but productive in the long run.

This is historically interesting - perhaps even significant - but it isn't something to bring up here and now, as people will regard anything and everything in a Moyes light, so to speak. The two cases can't be compared like for like and nobody in his right mind would do so either.

For the second time tonight I'll do something I'd never do sober. Fecking bullet points.

  • Moyes inherited a squad that was no doubt better than the one Fergie inherited.
  • Fergie didn't inherit a pub team. There were plenty of very good footballers in Big Ron's side and the team as such was obviously MUCH better than the table position suggested at the time of the take-over.
  • What most reasonable people mean when they refer to Fergie's first seasons as an apt comparison is simply that even the best of 'em don't get everything right straight away. It's an analogy of sorts. It isn't a formula: "Every manager, no matter who he is, should be given at least five years, and then he WILL win the league and everything else in sight..." er, yes, this is NOT what most so-called Moyes apologists mean when they point to Fergie and his first years as a United manager. It ain't a formula - it's just an analogy, meant to illustrate that being patient may indeed get you somewhere. The key word being MAY.
  • If you have already decided that Moyes is shite such analogies will probably do nothing but vex you and possibly make your head hurt. In which case you should probably ignore 'em.
  • Regardless of what your head is like you should realize one thing (which is pretty fecking obvious, really): Fergie didn't take over from Fergie having been in charge for a quarter of a century. Nobody has done that. Except for Moyes. His task is unprecedented in that respect. Might be worth keeping in mind.
Oh, and I do apologize for the bullet points. I can't defend it, really - but I am drunk. Strange how good bullet points look to the intoxicated eye. I normally hate 'em with a vengeance.

Peace, mothers.
I do wonder if Fergie asking the fans to support Moyes was because he could see what was coming. The way its worded was to prepare people for the possibility of some tough times early on, and this is still early on.
 
Nobody, not even Ferguson, could have foresaw it becoming this bad. Even Sir Bobby was shaking his head!
 
I also doubt that Fergie will have foreseen more than half of the squad's defenders being given the elbow before a years is up.

Or that two of his three most recent purchases would be out of favour under the new management.

What should have been a little refurbishment of the playing staff is being turned into something far more problematic and costly.
 
I also doubt that Fergie will have foreseen more than half of the squad's defenders being given the elbow before a years is up.

Or that two of his three most recent purchases would be out of favour under the new management.

What should have been a little refurbishment of the playing staff is being turned into something far more problematic and costly.
It all depends on how you want to spin it doesnt it?
 
Sir Alex won't return even if he wants. For a start he needs his old staff there cause he isn't someone who does training. Some of them are in other jobs and I doubt they will return for a couple of months only to get sacked by the next manager in the summer.

Sir Alex with Round, Neville and co won't make sense at all. So, I don't see any chance that he may make a return regardless of circumstances.

You are forgetting Jimmy Lumsden ... the only one out of that lot that may look older than Fergie.
 
It was a potentially very good side with some truly excellent players in it. There was a problem with "attitudes", no question about it, and we all know that one of Fergie's first big tasks was to address this. Big Ron had let things slide (he wasn't the only manager in the English top flight to do this, feck knows - things were very different back then) and he'd also allowed a "favourite" culture develop at the club which was anything but productive in the long run.

This is historically interesting - perhaps even significant - but it isn't something to bring up here and now, as people will regard anything and everything in a Moyes light, so to speak. The two cases can't be compared like for like and nobody in his right mind would do so either.

For the second time tonight I'll do something I'd never do sober. Fecking bullet points.

  • Moyes inherited a squad that was no doubt better than the one Fergie inherited.
  • Fergie didn't inherit a pub team. There were plenty of very good footballers in Big Ron's side and the team as such was obviously MUCH better than the table position suggested at the time of the take-over.
  • What most reasonable people mean when they refer to Fergie's first seasons as an apt comparison is simply that even the best of 'em don't get everything right straight away. It's an analogy of sorts. It isn't a formula: "Every manager, no matter who he is, should be given at least five years, and then he WILL win the league and everything else in sight..." er, yes, this is NOT what most so-called Moyes apologists mean when they point to Fergie and his first years as a United manager. It ain't a formula - it's just an analogy, meant to illustrate that being patient may indeed get you somewhere. The key word being MAY.
  • If you have already decided that Moyes is shite such analogies will probably do nothing but vex you and possibly make your head hurt. In which case you should probably ignore 'em.
  • Regardless of what your head is like you should realize one thing (which is pretty fecking obvious, really): Fergie didn't take over from Fergie having been in charge for a quarter of a century. Nobody has done that. Except for Moyes. His task is unprecedented in that respect. Might be worth keeping in mind.
Oh, and I do apologize for the bullet points. I can't defend it, really - but I am drunk. Strange how good bullet points look to the intoxicated eye. I normally hate 'em with a vengeance.

Peace, mothers.
Exactly - I'm still behind him/giving him time. I do hope to see some change within the next 10 months though. Another window (summer will be 3) and he really should start making the team his own..and by that I mean stop looking like Fergie-lite tactically with Fergie's team.
 
^ I think that he could call upon Queiroz's services if the club was in crisis [post Brazil naturally].


It all depends on how you want to spin it doesnt it?

This is little more than speculation on my part of course, however i suspect that Fergie's plea to the fan was meant to serve as a bulwark against the possibly baron years ahead or early exit from the CL, rather than such a sharp decline in our overall competitiveness.
 
  • Regardless of what your head is like you should realize one thing (which is pretty fecking obvious, really): Fergie didn't take over from Fergie having been in charge for a quarter of a century. Nobody has done that. Except for Moyes. His task is unprecedented in that respect. Might be worth keeping in mind.
See this is where you are wrong. We've gone through this situation before, after Sir Matt left in 1969 after being in charge for 24 years, Wilf McGuinness went from being the reserve team manager and took over from Busby, and then got sacked after a year and a bit, only for Sir Matt to take over until the end of the season until the new boss took over. In that time Wilf got us to 3 semi finals as well (Moyes to 1). So Moyes isn't the only one to have done it. There are actually a lot of similarites between now and then, and it just seems like we didn't learn from our mistake the first time, despite Sir Alex saying we won't make the same mistake in getting a guy with no experience at all at our level or with things we associate ourselves with. He is experienced in the premier league, but he has no experience with being the manager at a top team, playing attacking or exciting football, or of winning trophies.
 
Naturally there is a spot of pressure and baggage entailed in succeeding Sir Alex, yet with that being the case it is only more perplexing that Moyes has sought to rid himself of the experience remaining at the club.
 
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^ I think that he could call upon Queiroz's services if the club was in crisis [post Brazil naturally].




This is little more than speculation on my part of course, however i suspect that Fergie's plea to the fan was meant to serve as a bulwark against the possibly baron years ahead or early exit from the CL, rather than such a sharp decline in our overall competitiveness.
I saw it as a warning of what may come, I always thought in the short term (1-2 seasons) we would slip off the pace. I view short term as 1-2 seasons, most others probably 3-6 months. I didnt think we would be this bad but then again I also didnt think Moyes would have to deal with even half of the things tripping him up in this first season. So if we take the rough transition when not just Fergie left but also Woodward stepped in, add in his first weeks with the squad were on a pre arranged tour and that also hit him right when a transfer period kicked in, mix in key injuries to major team members, some really bad luck during games (such as losing both CB's before halftime, DeGea making his first fumble in forever etc etc), throw in some older players starting to fade and create mischief ( not looking at Rio....), put that in with Rene deciding not to accept his job offer and a bunch of other irritations and he hasnt had an easy run. Mourinho, Pep etc would have all had a struggle with that, remember Mourinhos battles before Chelsea sacked him?, a fair few things then were out of Mourinhos control.
Could Moyes have done better with all these irritations?, yes probably.
However the match day fans have given him lots of support during the games, its mostly online where people are venting strongest. When he gets to the point the match day fans turn on him will be when it actually gets tough for him. Right now its early on and its a bumpy ride.
So much of the opinions of him are based on assumptions or flawed "facts". Great example was the Stoke game where so many were stating that Rooney and RVP only passed to each other twice in the game, both from kick offs and that RVP only completed 7 passes the entire game. This is passed off as another example of what an awful coach he is however...
I watched the game again to check on this and both were so called statistical facts were horribly wrong. So people run with these inaccuracies and it all grows into this big myth mixed with fact to make things appear far worse than they really are.
 
Someone here wrote that we went for a manager who we can 'mould'. But who is doing the moulding? Unless Fergie is in daily contact with Moyes, there is no molding. He just has to figure out what to do.
Gary Neville said that. He said, Manchester United could change a manager. I said it's utter bollocks. Fergie wasn't mould by United when he came here, he already too good for Aberdeen. He needed a bigger job, and he is the one who changed United.
 
Nobody can sensibly deny this. I was one of the many saying Terry's knees were gone last season, yet this year with Mou back he's had a new lease of life. The best managers know how to get people playing their best.

I said it too. It's bizarre and a credit to them both at the same time.
 
Disagree!!

95% of this forum were on a hard on this time last year discussing how great our team is going to be and how players like Welbeck, Cleverely, Jones, De Gea, Kagawa and Rafael are going to turn into world class players and continue to lead us to success.

What's changed about them players now?

We lack of the Phelan magic.

 
Having finally been able to swallow back down the bile choked up by the Stoke game, I'm going to hide behind the fact Mata, Rooney and RVP were all not quite matchfit, all 3 having just come back the game prior, similarly Carrick,and use this as an excuse rightly or wrongly for now, I'm also going to stop venting my worries of the current regime, as I'm coming to the conclusion to keep regurgitating my conerns ad nauseum would only help blacken my own mood further while possibly not doing much to help the moral of those who have similar issues. (Well possibly those sparse few whom actually bother to read my drivel anyway).
A convincing win against current no-hopers Fulham and a good, solid showing at the Emirates where RVP and co. will be out to spoil their little resurgent love in and things will be looking a bit brighter perhaps!
 
You don't like Mata? What do you think of Arteta/Baines/Coleman/Mirallas/Jagielka? I honestly think he's been very, very consistent in the transfer market over the years, so it's probably the absolute least of our worries.

I do like Mata, but it doesn't take anyone special to rate Mata and I doubt we can (or the Glazers will) give him a budget to sign 30-40m signings for every position we need to fill.

The bolded ones are not good enough for United, and neither is Fellaini.
 
It would be great to see that before the season's out so we have an idea of what to expect come August, especially when there will be squad improvements.The players here now have the quality.I hope Moyes will leave the 442 behind, he simply has to and I expect him to!
I've just posted something about that in the "Playing Style" thread. What's intriguing me is that with all the jetting around watching players Moyes and his cohorts did in January, none of those watched appeared to be wingers whereas the whole world knows our wingers aren't up to standard (Adnan excepted). Is he preparing to change our playing style in the Summer, once he has the new recruits on board?
 
Heavens to Betsy how is it that on a footballing forum so many people keep up with this constant 'How come SAF got these players to walk the league...'

The people saying RvP won us the league are correct. In sports - and war and a lot of other fields, tbf - you can win by 'localized' warfare. It's not some big super-secret. Everyone knows this. Keep average/solid in all other areas and emphasize one extremely strong point to maximize output over a large enough sample size/period. Yes obviously there will be minor adjustments here and there but otherwise there was no OMFG GENIUS NO ONE ELSE COULD POSSIBLY from SAF. He's a smart, calculating risk-taker and it paid out last season with some help from City/Chelsea like a quinzillion people have posted.

That's it. That's what happened. Not to absolve Moyes of any fault regarding RvPs' unavailability this season (I have nothing but contempt/pity for the man) but that's what happened and it's the only reason it's hard to argue that Moyes should be sacked immediately. He didn't have RvP, who this side was built around a-la us during the Ronaldo years (built to maximize his output).
 
Heavens to Betsy how is it that on a footballing forum so many people keep up with this constant 'How come SAF got these players to walk the league...'

The people saying RvP won us the league are correct. In sports - and war and a lot of other fields, tbf - you can win by 'localized' warfare. It's not some big super-secret. Everyone knows this. Keep average/solid in all other areas and emphasize one extremely strong point to maximize output over a large enough sample size/period. Yes obviously there will be minor adjustments here and there but otherwise there was no OMFG GENIUS NO ONE ELSE COULD POSSIBLY from SAF. He's a smart, calculating risk-taker and it paid out last season with some help from City/Chelsea like a quinzillion people have posted.

That's it. That's what happened. Not to absolve Moyes of any fault regarding RvPs' unavailability this season (I have nothing but contempt/pity for the man) but that's what happened and it's the only reason it's hard to argue that Moyes should be sacked immediately. He didn't have RvP, who this side was built around a-la us during the Ronaldo years (built to maximize his output).

This is bollocks though, how did City and Chelsea help us? We got 89 points without really playing towards the end of season, could have been over 90 easily if we hadn't won the league with 4 games to spare.

Van Persie was important but we finished with the same amount of points the season before even without him. At no point during Fergie reign in the last 10 years,mVan Persie, Ronaldo or not, did we look like dropping out of top 4. The difference between what them two are capable of getting out of the team is immense.
 
I haven't seen any of your other posts, so no offense, but this is the type of talk I'm talking about.

It's a typical symptom of a forum with many sub-intelligent posters who don't realize they're saying the exact same thing as the person they're 'disagreeing' with.
 
I've just posted something about that in the "Playing Style" thread. What's intriguing me is that with all the jetting around watching players Moyes and his cohorts did in January, none of those watched appeared to be wingers whereas the whole world knows our wingers aren't up to standard (Adnan excepted). Is he preparing to change our playing style in the Summer, once he has the new recruits on board?
Are you basing that on what the papers reported or actual fact of who they are monitoring. Just because the media reports a player is being scouted, doesn't mean other players are not being watched.
 
Are you basing that on what the papers reported or actual fact of who they are monitoring. Just because the media reports a player is being scouted, doesn't mean other players are not being watched.
In interviews Moyes has clearly stated which positions he's looking to recruit for and I haven't seen or heard him say anything about wingers.
 
I do like Mata, but it doesn't take anyone special to rate Mata and I doubt we can (or the Glazers will) give him a budget to sign 30-40m signings for every position we need to fill.
He have to come up with bargain signings in the Evra, Vidic mould. Not yet world class, but solid and can become one in the near future. There's no way Glazers will let him spend Mata amount of money for 5 players.
 
Moyes has proven to be very astute in the market at Everton. That is a feather in his cap.
 
In interviews Moyes has clearly stated which positions he's looking to recruit for and I haven't seen or heard him say anything about wingers.
And Fergie wouldn't sell Madrid a virus. Don't read too much into what managers say to the public mate.
 
I've just posted something about that in the "Playing Style" thread. What's intriguing me is that with all the jetting around watching players Moyes and his cohorts did in January, none of those watched appeared to be wingers whereas the whole world knows our wingers aren't up to standard (Adnan excepted). Is he preparing to change our playing style in the Summer, once he has the new recruits on board?
My only trouble with this is that in the Summer, (if we continue as we are) it will be too late. He needs to have that plan for the future but his immediate concern is getting us playing differently now, even now it could well be too late. He should have reacted months ago in reality, but he's continued along the same predicable path, and it's getting gradually worse.
 
My only trouble with this is that in the Summer, (if we continue as we are) it will be too late. He needs to have that plan for the future but his immediate concern is getting us playing differently now, even now it could well be too late. He should have reacted months ago in reality, but he's continued along the same predicable path, and it's getting gradually worse.
I really don't think he has the players who can keep possession of the ball sufficiently to make it viable just now.
 
The summer transfer window was far from astute. Whether you blame Woodward or Moyes or both, it was shambolic and for me, Moyes lost some credibility immediately from that.
 
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