IF Moyes was to sacked, the United job would still be the biggest job in football. Most of the ambitious managers will be queuing up for it.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
- Status
I actually think this is the case with plenty of 'fans' but not so many on this forum, but that's just the direction where all this is heading. I don't know where you're getting 'warm fuzzy feeling' from, but people certainly don't like to look stupid.
I don't think we've slid down the table in a while either, we've probably moved up a plce or two in the last few months... not saying its enough, just saying
Neil Lennon?
I see where you're coming from and I do agree. People want him gone right away.
Do people not think Klopp is attainable? I know he loves Dortmund but how much fun is it to try to compete in Germany when Bayern keep turning the heads of his players? They've got better atmosphere in their stadium and they play better football, apart from that they are a much smaller club and have a much inferior financial clout than United. He could actually build great things at United and stay for the long haul. And the media already loves him.
That's fair enough if someone can say 'he should be sacked'. But a thread like this is a horrile phenomenon. Every week we lose a billion people will post in this thread, every week we win this thread will be quiet as a grave. All some people contribute as fans is negative stuff. For me there have been plenty of positives of Moyes reign so far, but for some fans there have been zero. I would have supported any manager and if a new one comes in I'll support him. I'm just not going to contribute to a thread where we all watch every game waiting for something bad to happen and then rush to post in here about how it's Moyes fault.
Why this is a criteria? There isn't a club in the world who has that as a criteria. We certainly didn't plan for Fergie to stay here forever. He stayed because he was good at it.
We should get a good manager. If he is good, he'll stay here for as long as we want. If he isn't he gets the sack. If he is good and old, after few years he'll get replaced with another one, and I don't think that another league title or UCL will harm us in the process.
We now are a normal club. With Fergie retiring we are just like others. And we should start acting like others or soon enough we'll be only on historical channel. Stay classy when you are winning, when you are losing do whatever is possible in order to make possible to win again. Staying classy and losing? Where is the glory in that?
Absolutely. Also, there's nothing classless about not having a manager spend 25 yrs at the club. The sooner we realize that, the better it is. Nobody wants a managerial change every 2 seasons but to have a 10-15 yr stay as a criteria for appointment is just ridiculous. Just like us handing Moyes a 6 yr contract which immediately gave us a situation where we have lots to lose and nothing to gain.
Fergie and Busby were mangerial anomalies but United typically gives a manager between 3 and 4 years to get it right.
We're in a whole different world financially now though, 3-4 years could be suicide.
Are we though? Those commercial deals are bringing in truckloads of money.
I'm not sure tradition is the best measure to judge how to proceed forward, not unless there are actual signs of progress. And given how much the game has changed in the last few decades, how successful SAF was when he joined United and the size of United today, I think we really would do well to put aside all comparison to SAF in the 80's and just judge Moyes on what Moyes delivers.
explain
I see taking posts out of context is your "thing".
What I am saying is the grass isn't always greener on the other side or for a quote from the great man:
"Sometimes you look in a field and you see a cow and you think it's a better cow than the one you've got in your own field. It's a fact. Right? And it never really works out that way."
The hypothesis of choosing a manager or a player who has a good record and putting him into your current situation and declaring that he will make everything better is a classic forum argument that is impossible to answer to. There's no way of knowing either way and the person making the claims always sit on their high horse safe in the knowledge they will never be shown to be wrong.
This is how I see it and why I will stick with Moyes until we get a real feel for next season:
- He took over Fergie's squad and I think he's had big trouble motivating certain senior players who should be helping him and acting as leaders.
- He needed to see what he was working with before he made any transfers in the summer. Fellaini was a must (a midfielder) be cause he trusted him and he's been without him all season, comepletely disrupting his plans.
- He's also had long periods without other players. Rooney has missed important games, Van Persie missed over two months, Carrick was out for a long stretch, Rafael out for a long time and he's had big issues keeping his centrebacks fit and regular.
- He managed to bring in Mata despite it being a difficult window to do business in. I don't think people give Moyes and Woodward enough credit on this.
- Planning for the long term he is using this season to decide what to do in the summer, it looks like he's going to clear out the older players who aren't playing for him and the younger ones who aren't good enough and replace them with quality. It's better to do that than bring in anyone and everyone in his first summer window just for the sake of it.
For what it's worth he's not who I would have chosen, I'd have chosen Mourinho.
Well yeah but you have to assume these commercial deals won't last (at these rates) if we're struggling to get CL football and not winning trophies. We've already dropped from 1st to 3rd on the richest club list (may not be overly relevant).
Possibly, all I'm saying is that is how the club have done things previously. It would not be surprising to see more of the same.
If we're giving him 3-4 years to get it right then I'd assume we're giving him 3-4 years without any real success and potentially without sustained European football, which is financially bad for a club as big as us.
And how long will that last? These "deals" can only last so long before we're seen as a bad investment, if we're not able to compete. We fall down the table, will Nike/Adidas see us an investment for shirt sales etc?
Historically, that is true, but the way modern football has developed since the early Ferguson days means that there's far more to lose if the team doesn't perform from day one. The surge of money into the sport and the fact that the Champions League now includes the top four teams in England means that giving a manager 3-4 years is far more risky if the manager is wrong from the start. The history book gets thrown out the window in many ways. We can't keep going about things the same way we did in the 70s and 80s.
While I'm not sure about the rest of it, I fully agree with the bolded bit. We are mortal again without Fergie.
Creating a dynasty with Dortmund is like creating a dynasty with Aston Villa. Big bank take little bank as far as United are concerned.
I agree, with what you're saying but football clubs are funny things. Tradition is very important to them, a certain way of operating is important as well. My point is don't be surprised if the club sticks with Moyes for longer than many would like.
Probably for a while yet, do we have an official underwear sponsor yet?
That's a bit of an arrogant thing to say. Did Aston Villa win two league titles in a row with a wage bill about 1/4 that of their title rivals and get to a CL final? Klopp has said that he expected clubs to pick off Dortmund's talents. He's not going to leave because his players keep leaving. Dortmund are a club on the rise, Klopp won't leave his project. At least not in the near future. His new contract runs til 2018.
This "long term plan" gash makes me laugh...
To those saying it, here's a scenario.
Would you take three years of Moyes, as we struggle and endure a mid table reign for the sake of the fact he's "long term"
Or
Would you take three years of say someone like Maureen, as we continue to very successful on the pitch but he leaves after 3 or 4 years?
It is the worst argument to come from either side of the fence!!
To those saying it, here's a scenario.
Would you take three years of Moyes, as we struggle and endure a mid table reign for the sake of the fact he's "long term"
Or
Would you take three years of say someone like Maureen, as we continue to very successful on the pitch but he leaves after 3 or 4 years?
It is the worst argument to come from either side of the fence!!
Probably not, but that's what Nike see us for mainly, right?
Not that I'm aware of....Loads we can market. Bras, hair gel, DVD players, housing estates...We'll be fine ha
Sadly, they won't sell as they won't have enough support in the middle.
Who's talking 25 years?
I think all the club is trying to do is create a project and let someone build something rather than expect something in the first year and sack them if they haven't lived up to expectations.
It's clear the club believe that to be successful you need to be afforded time to build something and let it mature. I think their expectations of Moyes aren't at all based on this season and probably not even next season but year 3 and year 4.
If the decision is in the hands of Fergie and SBC then I think that Moyes will get at-least three - four years regardless of results (bar relegation).
But I think that Glazers at most will accept a year without UCL. If we miss this year, Moyes might survive. If we miss again next year, I think that they will definitely act.
Until now they haven't interfered with the manager and let the footballing decisions to footballing people. But until now the results have been good. When poor results in the pitch will start reflecting their commercial deals (to some degree it has already happened, club apparently is worth 200m less than in summer, and without European football our revenue will be 30-50m lower) I don't think that they'll care much about the tradition and history. Probably the only thing all people agree here is that Glazers are here for money. And I doubt that they'll accept losing it because Fergie guarantees them that Moyes will eventually become great.
I'd call it ignorant. Sounds like there is no potential in football outside the top 5 clubs in Europe and England.
In their business plan, United should finish third (Champions League money).
Seriously I think that there is 0 chance of Moyes being here in third edition if he fails to qualify us in UCL in two consecutive seasons. It just doesn't make sense from both football point of view and business point of view.
Yes but just like every project, you have to have short term targets too. You cant just appoint a manager and forget about it for 4 years. Even if its a long term plan, Moyes must have short term targets to fulfill too. Top 4 is that for me. With a squad like ours, someone who cant get us into CL for say 2yrs in a row cant be trusted with a long term project.
I see what you did there
there is nothing classy in wanting the manager out after 3 months into the season either..we re not talking about years but three to four months into the season ffs
Why is it arrogant? Are Dortmund a bigger club than Villa or are you saying they are not? If thats the case if Martin O'Neil's Villa won the league would you expect him to turn down the United job if it came around?
Its not arrogant at all.. Just the plan truth. Just like they keep losing their best players.
I am going to give up in educating people when it comes to Klopp. I don't know if the people who are saying that he will jump to join United if we offer the chance have ever listened to a Klopp interview or watch a BVB game.
Who suggested Moyes should be sacked now? I didnt, neither did the guy I quoted.
Well that's not true at all, in any way. Dortmund financially are on an excellent condition, and I'm pretty sure they have one of the best revenues around. They are built really well throughout now and have a great stadium, and an excellent young squad. They are also by far the second biggest German team and pretty much the only time where a team has been able to sustain success in Germany for more then just the odd year. They've been challenging for the title and all trophies for a few years now and there are now signs that it will stop.
It's fair to say they've established themselves amongst Europes elite clubs currently, and have a better team then we do despite their horrendous luck with injuries and are amongst the most exciting teams to watch. It's ridiculous how ignorant some people are on here when it comes to other leagues, saying they're all shite and the premier league is far ahead of the others.
- Status