Moyes So Far!

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Is the CL that important in the grand scheme of things? I know it's certainly very beneficial but hardly to the extent of 'life or death' when it comes to transfers and wages. Let's not forget that in the last two years we went out in the group stages and then in the last 16 and have still spent £80m in the last year and are seemingly on course to spend far more in the summer.

I'm not saying it's not very helpful, it certainly is, I just don't think it's as catastrophic as some think. We're a wealthier and bigger club than Pool are, which seems to be the focal point of concern due to what happened to them after they missed out.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
But even if that was the worry (which it shouldn't be) ... why not put Jones right-back?

Also, with Crouch - what's the point in trying to beat him in the air? It's the second ball you need to deal with.
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You tell Moyes. I'm as perplexed as you are and I continue to wonder why we cannot play our strongest line-ups even against the poorer teams.
 
Appointing Moyed and passing on Mourinho will go down as the worst decision ever in football history. :(
 
@Cina, do you completely reject the notion that we might lose out on players we could otherwise have got if we cant offer them CL football?

Seems to me irrelevant where we have gone out of the competition in the past, the point was we were in it, contesting it. At least the players thinking about coming would have some influence on how well we did in it, assuming they were in the team.

I dont think we wont be able to sign players if we arent in the CL. But if we are hoping to sign quite a few players, we'll get better players if we can offer them CL football. The very best players will have options and I expect theyd choose somewhere that did offer them that in most instances.
 
Cina said:
Is the CL that important in the grand scheme of things? I know it's certainly very beneficial but hardly to the extent of 'life or death' when it comes to transfers and wages. Let's not forget that in the last two years we went out in the group stages and then in the last 16 and have still spent £80m in the last year and are seemingly on course to spend far more in the summer.

I'm not saying it's not very helpful, it certainly is, I just don't think it's as catastrophic as some think. We're a wealthier and bigger club than Pool are, which seems to be the focal point of concern due to what happened to them after they missed out.
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If we miss out on it for a season or even two then you're right, it won't really be catastrophic assuming we bounce back the following season.

Though if we start to get phased out of it over years then I fear we'll lose our prestige and pulling power as a potential club for world class player, not to mention struggle to keep our current best players.

Also it'd be a shame considering the classic European fixtures we've had in the distant and near past.
 
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Adebesi said:
@Cina, do you completely reject the notion that we might lose out on players we could otherwise have got if we cant offer them CL football?

Seems to me irrelevant where we have gone out of the competition in the past, the point was we were in it, contesting it. At least the players thinking about coming would have some influence on how well we did in it, assuming they were in the team.

I dont think we wont be able to sign players if we arent in the CL. But if we are hoping to sign quite a few players, we'll get better players if we can offer them CL football. The very best players will have options and I expect theyd choose somewhere that did offer them that in most instances.
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No, of course not. My post was from a financial perspective, not in terms of whether it will have an effect on getting players, which it certainly will, especially the level of players Moyes is seemingly trying to target at the moment.
 
I really don't get it.... if the opposition is using high balls... why put your heading cb as right back, surely his heading prowess is best placed in the center where all the cross lies, instead of the sides?
 
I think the importance for a player of whether a club is in the Champions League that season is heavily over played.

I think the importance of getting into the Champions League in order to sign the star players you are looking at is more down to the huge financial windfall the Champions League gives a club.

For your average sides in Germany, Italy, Spain and England, the £50m+ for that one season is a massive difference and is for me the difference between buying a star or being more frugal.


That's why it doesn't worry me so much for United as we have the financial clout to go out and spend that money and pay the wages that that calibre of player demands.


If you go to Vidal and offer him £180k a week and the chance to play with RVP, Rooney and Mata he won't say "Oh but I'll be missing a Champions League campaign".
 
Revan said:
I don't think this is true. He had 0 goals and 1 assists or so for Chelsea this season. He averaged more than thirty gal/assists in each of the last two seasons.
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You don't gave to find something to disagree with in every post mate :lol: stats aside the games I saw him in he played really well and that was coming from the right which was new to him. Played centrally was his best season but he also came from the left at Valencia, he ticks all the boxes along with Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj for the manager to implement the system he's hinted at. Let's watch what he does against Fulham, if he plays two wingers I think I will actually cry.
 
If you look at the City project, as soon as they qualified for the CL the whole different class of player started arriving and they went up a level. That wasnt because they had more money it was because they could offer CL football. Before that they signed people like Barry. Once they were in the CL they signed people like Aguero. That isnt about money.
 
I don't get this notion that we're spoilt if we want Moyes to be sacked. In half a season, he's taken the best team in England and through the sheer force of incompetence shoved them to 8th place while playing playing the worst football we've seen in twenty years and spending 30 million. Forget sackable, that's borderline criminal.

If he gets sacked, it wouldn't lack class, it wouldn't breach this mythical United way, it would just be common sense. I'd love for this thread to be gleefully bumped in 26 years time but right now I can't even imagine it.
 
Cina said:
No, of course not. My post was from a financial perspective, not in terms of whether it will have an effect on getting players, which it certainly will, especially the level of players Moyes is seemingly trying to target at the moment.
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I think from a financial perspective we may still need to play a certain amount of games in Europa to get the gate reciepts in.

Also we seem to do a great amount of signings in the form of sponsorships. I doubt we will keep getting the official Man United sponsor for "X" if we're no longer associated with one of the world's most watched competitions.
 
VP said:
I don't get this notion that we're spoilt if we want Moyes to be sacked. In half a season, he's taken the best team in England and through the sheer force of incompetence shoved them to 8th place while playing playing the worst football we've seen in twenty years and spending 30 million. Forget sackable, that's borderline criminal.

If he gets sacked, it wouldn't lack class, it wouldn't breach this mythical United way, it would just be common sense. I'd love for this thread to be gleefully bumped in 26 years time but right now I can't even imagine it.
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Exactly, some people seem more obsessed with this mythical "united way" thing than what's best for United.
 
Pexbo said:
I think the importance for a player of whether a club is in the Champions League that season is heavily over played.

I think the importance of getting into the Champions League in order to sign the star players you are looking at is more down to the huge financial windfall the Champions League gives a club.

For your average sides in Germany, Italy, Spain and England, the £50m+ for that one season is a massive difference and is for me the difference between buying a star or being more frugal.


That's why it doesn't worry me so much for United as we have the financial clout to go out and spend that money and pay the wages that that calibre of player demands.

If you go to Vidal and offer him £180k a week and the chance to play with RVP, Rooney and Mata he won't say "Oh but I'll be missing a Champions League campaign".
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It makes a difference to players when they see that a team isn't in CL because they've been crap for a year, losing games on a regular basis (we'll have 10-12 defeats by the end of league season) and playing poor long ball football. If you go to Vidal and tell him he'll be asked to boot the ball forward as hard as he can and will participate in 12-15 losses a season he might think about it twice.
 
Sarni said:
It makes a difference to players when they see that a team isn't in CL because they've been crap for a year, losing games on a regular basis (we'll have 10-12 defeats by the end of league season) and playing poor long ball football. If you go to Vidal and tell him he'll be asked to boot the ball forward as hard as he can and will participate in 12-15 losses a season he might think about it twice.
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So you think we've got a good midfield, it's just Moyes telling them to play badly.

Interesting theory.
 
I have been unequivocal in my support for Moyes thus far, (and still am whenever I speak to a non-United supporter) but I must concede amongst bretheren here that I am starting to think we have a problem here. Managers are coming in throughout the game and aletering philosophies within months. Everton, Liverpool, Sunderland - even Crystal Palace! I don't believe that it would have been impossible for any manager to come in and have us looking better after 6 months. The issue therefore seems to be that it is impossible for Moyes.

This doesn't even mean he is not good. I just worry that the players don't respect him enough. Fergie achieved so much, that there must be an element of 'who the feck are you?' now with Moyes. Someone like Mourinho, Guardiola or Klopp at least have things on their CV to encourage the players to be more trusting of their direction I suspect. These are big players who have won everything here. Now it's like we're just letting anyone 'ave a go' at leading them. They wake up one morning to find that training and tactics are being decided by Everton's manager and two of their former/present fecking teammates.
 
Pexbo said:
So you think we've got a good midfield, it's just Moyes telling them to play badly.

Interesting theory.
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No, our midfield isn't very good, we have a good squad though capable of playing excellent football with the likes of Mata, Januzaj, Rooney, van Persie as well (if they pull their thing together) Kagawa and Nani. Cleverley and Carrick were better last year too but we could put that down to poor form from Cleverley and age with Carrick.
 
kouroux said:
You could also ask, would the team still play this dog's breakfast without the injury of those top class midfielders ?
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There is that even worse scenario yes.

The signs at this stage have not been all that encouraging, his seeming allergy to attacking through the centre and inability to even start our best/most in-form CMs must cast doubt upon Moyes' judgement.
 
Ramshock said:
No he means Fellaini, who according to the wise sage council of Redcafe is the worst player to have ever played the game because feck you thats why
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The irony of course, being that if you have the Mata'/Adnan/Kagawa's of this world in midfield, Fellaini probably makes a bit of sense. It doesnt work with Giggs/Cleverley very well, but its all about balance.

For Moyes, I think you have to give him the summer (last summer was fecked up by the club, should never have replaced the two top men at the same time- Gill should have stayed until the end of august to help the club transition, and they should have paid him whatever it took to do so) and then see what happens.

He will certainly need to come out of the blocks like Usain Bolt though, because we start next season badly and the pressure will mount very very rapidly.
 
Adebesi said:
If you look at the City project, as soon as they qualified for the CL the whole different class of player started arriving and they went up a level. That wasnt because they had more money it was because they could offer CL football. Before that they signed people like Barry. Once they were in the CL they signed people like Aguero. That isnt about money.
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That's different though - up until then they had never Champions League football. If you asked somebody like Aguero to sign for them he'd say "who?". If oyu told himt hey had loads fo cash and had a project that was going to get them into the Champions League, he'd laugh and tell you he'd heard that one before, and you can come back once they are in the Champions League.

A better example is Suarez going to Liverpool. They may not have been in the CL at the time, but they were a familair face in the competition, and there was a reasonable expectation that they would be back in it soon.
 
Garethw said:
At the end of the day I don't want to argue with any of you guys. We're all United fans and should be sticking together .
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True. I can see why people are so npissed off at the moment, but I still think we're in such unchartered territory that there's no point in giving up on the path we've chosen so quickly. We all said that once Fergie went we faced a very tricky time - well, this is it, it's real. Those who think that simply trying a different manager will suddenly sort thingsout just seem a liitle deluded and panicky to me.
 
I believe failure to qualify for the CL would exclude a certain percentage of players - but these players would mainly be 'top 1%' players. They are used to playing in it every year and reaching the later stages. However, these players would be nearly impossible to buy anyway because the biggest clubs rarely sell their best talent to anybody.

The vast majority of players would assume that we are transitioning and would expect us to get back to the CL within one season.
 
Ramshock said:
Its not an easy situation. What annoys me about our club is we seemingly always have to do things the hard way. We should be well oiled machine like the rest of the biggest clubs in the world
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The thing that I can't get my head round still is how we fecked up the summer transfer window so badly. People take the piss out of Moyes for signing a player like Fellaini, and use this as proof that for some reason he doesn't like or want top level players (wihle ignoring the signing of Mata) - but everybody approved of the players we were chasing, such as Fabregas and Herrera. It was the way we went about trying to sign them that was shocking, not Moyes' choice of player. In the end, over-paying for Fellaini was the only option available to him.

As you say, we should be a well-oiled machine, and if we didn't want a season like this, we should have been ready to fly out of the blocks and pile in with a load of money for anybody Moyes wanted. There just seemed to be confusion throughout the club about who we could go for and what we coudl offer for them.
 
Sir A1ex said:
True. I can see why people are so npissed off at the moment, but I still think we're in such unchartered territory that there's no point in giving up on the path we've chosen so quickly. We all said that once Fergie went we faced a very tricky time - well, this is it, it's real. Those who think that simply trying a different manager will suddenly sort thingsout just seem a liitle deluded and panicky to me.
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On the other hand, placing your faith in the person who has tried and failed miserably at everything in his 7 month reign is perfectly reasonable?
 
Sir A1ex said:
The thing that I can't get my head round still is how we fecked up the summer transfer window so badly. People take the piss out of Moyes for signing a player like Fellaini, and use this as proof that for some reason he doesn't like or want top level players (wihle ignoring the signing of Mata) - but everybody approved of the players we were chasing, such as Fabregas and Herrera. It was the way we went about trying to sign them that was shocking, not Moyes' choice of player. In the end, over-paying for Fellaini was the only option available to him.

As you say, we should be a well-oiled machine, and if we didn't want a season like this, we should have been ready to fly out of the blocks and pile in with a load of money for anybody Moyes wanted. There just seemed to be confusion throughout the club about who we could go for and what we coudl offer for them.
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The things I still can't get my head around are:

1. Why was Moyes appointed in the first place?
2. Which genius decided to give him a 6yr contract?
3. When will the Glazers do something to protect their investment?
 
Sir A1ex said:
That's different though - up until then they had never Champions League football. If you asked somebody like Aguero to sign for them he'd say "who?". If oyu told himt hey had loads fo cash and had a project that was going to get them into the Champions League, he'd laugh and tell you he'd heard that one before, and you can come back once they are in the Champions League.

A better example is Suarez going to Liverpool. They may not have been in the CL at the time, but they were a familair face in the competition, and there was a reasonable expectation that they would be back in it soon.
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Perhaps Suarez's antics at Ajax might have given some people pause, made it slightly easier for Liverpool to get him? But yes, Im sure the fact they had been in it recently and even won it recently made them more attractive as it would with us.

Its true there is a difference between our situation and City's. I wouldnt say not being in the CL will make the rebuilding impossible. But I do think it will make a material difference. If a player has two options and one of them is in the CL now and the other is us, maybe not in the CL next season but with a reasonable expectation of being there the following season, I think itll be a factor. I can see us missing out on a player or two we might have got. Something like this is always impossible to prove or quantify but I think itll make the summer rebuild a lot harder. The saving grace is that I think by and large the players we already have are good enough to get us back in, especially if we strengthen the midfield, and to do that would not require bringing in the kind of player who would only go somewhere with CL football, we can strengthen our midfield with a player not already in that competition IMO. Still, all this talk of a massive cull and bringing in a load of top quality players to replace the deadwood is rather fanciful IMO if we are outside the CL, we might get one or two very good players but itll be tough if we dont have that to entice them. Happy to be proved wrong on that one but I fear the worst.
 
Adebesi said:
Perhaps Suarez's antics at Ajax might have given some people pause, made it slightly easier for Liverpool to get him? But yes, Im sure the fact they had been in it recently and even won it recently made them more attractive as it would with us.

Its true there is a difference between our situation and City's. I wouldnt say not being in the CL will make the rebuilding impossible. But I do think it will make a material difference. If a player has two options and one of them is in the CL now and the other is us, maybe not in the CL next season but with a reasonable expectation of being there the following season, I think itll be a factor. I can see us missing out on a player or two we might have got. Something like this is always impossible to prove or quantify but I think itll make the summer rebuild a lot harder. The saving grace is that I think by and large the players we already have are good enough to get us back in, especially if we strengthen the midfield, and to do that would not require bringing in the kind of player who would only go somewhere with CL football, we can strengthen our midfield with a player not already in that competition IMO. Still, all this talk of a massive cull and bringing in a load of top quality players to replace the deadwood is rather fanciful IMO if we are outside the CL, we might get one or two very good players but itll be tough if we dont have that to entice them. Happy to be proved wrong on that one but I fear the worst.
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We still pay CL dollars though, and if the club plays this correctly, and sells themselves correctly, the pull of being a key part of a new Manchester United team could be difficult to resist.

That being said, I do still believe that we will finish in the top four.
 
Bilbo said:
We still pay CL dollars though, and if the club plays this correctly, and sells themselves correctly, the pull of being a key part of a new Manchester United team could be difficult to resist.

That being said, I do still believe that we will finish in the top four.
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I think we will finish 5th. But given our somewhat difficult schedule, it may end up being 6th depending on whether Martinez can keep Everton going until the very end or whether they slip up. Even so, with Moyes, there's no guaranteeing we win our so called "easy games" anymore.
 
Adebesi said:
Jesus @Bilbo, that is some admirable optimism you have there. I wish I shared it.
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Things change so quickly in football. If we had won our game then we would be only four points off Liverpool with a home game against them to come. Its nothing really.

Obviously we didn't win, but I see a LOT of points being dropped by sides before the end. We just have to find some consistency, and some luck, and we will get there.
 
Sir A1ex said:
True. I can see why people are so npissed off at the moment, but I still think we're in such unchartered territory that there's no point in giving up on the path we've chosen so quickly. We all said that once Fergie went we faced a very tricky time - well, this is it, it's real. Those who think that simply trying a different manager will suddenly sort thingsout just seem a liitle deluded and panicky to me.
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A new manager will fix things because what Moyes has simple done is took the pressure off the role and made a job worthy of being better than Moyes than living up to Fergie.
 
Raoul said:
I think we will finish 5th. But given our somewhat difficult schedule, it may end up being 6th depending on whether Martinez can keep Everton going until the very end or whether they slip up. Even so, with Moyes, there's no guaranteeing we win our so called "easy games" anymore.
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Agreed. We have to go a good run, and I think we will. If we do, then I fully expect Liverpool to give us a way back.
 
Bilbo said:
Things change so quickly in football. If we had won our game then we would be only four points off Liverpool with a home game against them to come. Its nothing really.

Obviously we didn't win, but I see a LOT of points being dropped by sides before the end. We just have to find some consistency, and some luck, and we will get there.
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Me too the race for fourth is really open because the clubs chasing it are pretty shit in terms of an overall team. The only probably is we are too shit to capitalise as we will lose more games convincingly too.
 
Bilbo said:
Things change so quickly in football. If we had won our game then we would be only four points off Liverpool with a home game against them to come. Its nothing really.

Obviously we didn't win, but I see a LOT of points being dropped by sides before the end. We just have to find some consistency, and some luck, and we will get there.
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All true. If we were playing well I would find it easier to see things that way but what difference does it make if other teams drop points when we arent doing our own job? We look more like falling further behind than catching up with anyone.
 
The concern is surely that if we don't get CL, it's so unlikely that you'll be able to get players like Kroos, for example. So you end up shopping in the second tier. So either they train on and become top players, which is ideally what you want, or you end up in another transitional cycle of trying to bring in top players when you are back in the CL. Unless we pull off a miracle I think we're still going to be talking about needing to improve the team in two years time.
 
Cal? said:
The things I still can't get my head around are:
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1. Why was Moyes appointed in the first place?
A fair question to ask - I can understand the reasoning, but I can also understand why some may not agree with it. The thing is, they did, and in my book it's worth seeing it through, or they may as well not have done.

2. Which genius decided to give him a 6yr contract?
I'm pretty sure this was a nominal thing for the media, and the contract will be structured in such a way that it's not execisevly sexpensie to get rid of him after a year or two.

3. When will the Glazers do something to protect their investment?
In the summer, hopefully.
 
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