My point is that Moyes has persisted with the same game plan week in week out even though it's obviously not working. He has centered our attack play around the wings, Young, Valencia and thank Jesus, Januzaj. It's baffling to me how he thinks we played well against Stoke. He literally valued the fact we reached the byline. I mean, what the feck is that about? We're the weakest side in the league in terms of creating chances from a central position even though he's had Rooney, Kagawa, Januzaj and now Mata. Where are the improvements? We've digressed and digressed under Moyes.I have failed to understand your point here, do you actually think Moyes is trying to build a team around these people, you've mentioned that more than once now, you do realise he's stuck with these players and he had to give them a chance otherwise his head would be on the block for pulling the squad apart. He simply cannot winbut when your strike force is out for a large part your left to wingers chucking crosses at a second string and it's doomed to failure. We are a 4-4-2 squad and it's difficult to change that with what we have available, hopefully Mata will come some way in changing our attacking direction but he's had 2 games so far, we need to chill.
Moyes So Far!
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I have failed to understand your point here, do you actually think Moyes is trying to build a team around these people, you've mentioned that more than once now, you do realise he's stuck with these players and he had to give them a chance otherwise his head would be on the block for pulling the squad apart. He simply cannot win
Edit : Basically a bit of this.
The point is he has built a system that tries to the best out of valencia and young but the point is this is not his only options. There are a huge variety of different things he could try to get the best out of the other players instead of the wings.
Maybe he's seeing the same problems that many of us are and just doing to professional thing and keeping his mouth shut.
Let's wait and see before we delve into the future. He was played behind the striker on his debut, and although employed on the right yesterday he hardly played as traditional winger. He was mostly playing narrow. If anything I thought he had a free role. Injuries, bad substitutions made a mockery of tactics yesterday. I do blame Moyes for yesterday's defeat.
However, like many on here I don't blame him for all the ills of the world.
There's nothing wrong with having wingers and using them if its in the right way. There's nothing wrong with Moyes being pleased about us getting to the by-line either. The problem is we're getting to the by-line in the wrong areas, way out by the corner flag rather than slipping in players inside the fullback.
The likes of Navas, Nasri, Aguero and even Silva still get to the by-line for cut backs and they've scored loads of goals that way. That's before even mentioning the overlapping from Kolarov, Clichy etc.
There's nothing clever about us at the moment, we're so unimaginative. It would be a little more understandable if we had Beckham on the wing, but we haven't. It's too easy to deal with and I can't figure out what it is Moyes is doing in training.
The likes of Navas, Nasri, Aguero and even Silva still get to the by-line for cut backs and they've scored loads of goals that way. That's before even mentioning the overlapping from Kolarov, Clichy etc.
There's nothing clever about us at the moment, we're so unimaginative. It would be a little more understandable if we had Beckham on the wing, but we haven't. It's too easy to deal with and I can't figure out what it is Moyes is doing in training.
Fact is, this is the worst performing United side I've ever seen.
Look at him anytime he's on the bench...It strikes me as odd...Phil Neville constantly has his head up Moyes' arse during games and there was one time, when Moyes was walking down the tunnel at HT, Neville was lagging behind him scribbling down notes. As if he was taking half time coffee orders.
Where as Giggs, appears very distant from the whole thing and you never see him act the way Round and Neville do...Not saying there is anything in it and there probably isn't but, it's an odd one
Please do tell us who he could have used on the left, and right? Nani has been most out through injury, Young has hardly featured. He's tried Kagawa without success. Only Januzaj has been a revelation on the wings.
Excuse me, are you saying Moyes' head would be on the block if he didn't give a fair chance to Valencia and Young? That's not quite the vibe I've been getting from the Caf... they're not exactly popular. And he never gave a chance to Zaha.I have failed to understand your point here, do you actually think Moyes is trying to build a team around these people, you've mentioned that more than once now, you do realise he's stuck with these players and he had to give them a chance otherwise his head would be on the block for pulling the squad apart. He simply cannot win
It's not really a 4-4-2 squad. There are many, many players who are more suited to other formations. All our midfielders, for example, would be grateful if Rooney played deeper.
Count your blessings.
It's not all about having wingers though, is it? He could've easily tried a different formation. Even Ferguson went with a narrow diamond last season.
I acknowledge I've not been around as long as some others on here.We've only just acquired Mata and he's tried Kagawa and Januzaj in the 10 role with little/no success, we've had Rooney playing well but he's been out with Adnan filling the creative void. With Rooney and RVP out and Kagawa and Janzaj being underwhelming in the centre can I ask what other attacking options you would have us use given we only just signed Mata ?
I am curious myself as to these huge variety of options, we have tried a fair few but it's still shite, where else can we look but to the wings with our current crop remembering of course we have only just signed Juan.
If there was even a shred of truth in this theory then Pep would be struggling with Bayern.......Mourinho would be struggling with Chelsea and Pellegrini would be really struggling with City....at least also with Rodgers...even when people tried to make him into a laughing stock on here as he struggled at the start.....Liverpool were still playing great stuff and still absolutely hammering weaker teams and deep down there was a feeling that he was doing something good there.....With RVP and Rio desperate to move on from Moyes and Rooney desperate to leave when he found out Moyes was taking over and Leighton Baines deciding to stick on a lower wage at Everton with Martinez then he could get at Man Utd ........ it all adds to the suspicions that Moyes is not impressing some of the top players one bit.
He's given Januzaj and Kagawa feck all chances in the centre to be fair.
Our best attacker when RvP is not playing deeper? Where do you get the idea our midfielders would be grateful if Rooney played deeper?
When did all this happen?
Where do you get the idea RvP wants a move? He said he was perfectly happy with Moyes just a few weeks ago. Rooney decided to stay mostly due Moyes, and is negotiating a new contract. Rio's contract was never going to be renewed due to age and historical injuries. Baines would have walked to Old Trafford. Everton just decided not to sell.
Yes had Moyes pulled the champions apart there would have been fecking hell to pay, there is still hell to pay because he can't use the players Ferguson left him, no win situation.
And yes of course it's a 4-4-2
Yesterday we had two strikers and a midfield four, the shape might be different on paper but we still had Young wide left and Mata wide right, switching as and when with Rooney and RVP as the focal points. Then the injuries and Moyes fecked it up still having two forwards with two wide men, this 4-2-3-1 will be great but your wide men don't get chalk on their boots like yesterday, don't be fooled looking at lineups look at the pitch it's much clearer what's going on.
Zaha I don't understand unless of course he really was nobbing his daughter and if so it's not very professional which ever side you ;look at it from.
Because they would get help, wouldn't be as isolated as they usually are in our 4-4-2. I'm not saying that we should drop him into CM, I'm saying he should start deeper. Like he did at Villa Park, for example. Where it worked great.
Yes, Rooney is our best attacker apart from RvP. What's your point? If RvP's fit, Rooney should play as a number 10. If not, Mata or Kagawa should play as a number 10 and Rooney should be pushed up front. We're not a 4-4-2 squad, the only "problem" is Rooney. But he can play brilliantly as a number 10, starting from deeper positions and can do well there.
How much chance do you give ? Januzaj maybe not but he was anonymous in there and much better attacking threat from wide, we would have hung Moyes had he kept on playing him "out of position".
Kagawa had plenty of chance but he's clearly better with a dominant player next to him, he's not the go to guy when you need a player to grab a game by it's horns, we have Mata now and he looks exactly that to be fair. I wouldn't bat an eye should Kagawa be shown the door, he's been largely poor wherever he's been and if your not at least some part adaptable in modern football your knackered really.
We don't to be fair. He was loved and supported by the fans and got plenty of millions here. I don't think that we owe him to support his choice even if he is completely awful.
I don't believe in God and even if I did, I doubt that I would have believed that Fergie is a God. So you know, he might be wrong. It's not that he has a good record of recommending managers in the past.
I'm not sure where to start with this post. It's wrong on so many levels.
I'm being called for dinner.
Nice. Let me know when you actually have the balls to debate my points.
Until then, bask in the glory of the inevitable 4-4-2.
Either you're extremely young or, your missus is the bees knees
He's just gathering sustenance enough to debate whether a squad which Ferguson left playing 4-4-2 and overloaded with wingers Zaha,Valencia,Nani,Young etc, he's really going to need a good meal for that debating point.
Erm.
Nani's missed the majority of the season so far because of injury.
Zaha barely got a kick and is now on loan.
Valencia and Young have been abysmal.
If anything, this would have been the perfect opportunity to move away from wingers and 4-4-2, with the emergence of Januzaj and now the purchase of Mata. Yet yesterday we tried to outstoke Stoke themselves instead. If you have faith that he will still change in the future, fair enough. I don't think so. It seems that no matter who's on the pitch, we stick to the "get it wide, whack the cross in" type of football. Even when our wingers are shit/injured. It doesn't bring the best out of, well, anyone in the squad.
Has he been sacked yet?
I understand why people here want to do it "the United way" and are ready to keep him for another year, but the problem is if we don't improve significantly and finish 4th this season he'll lose the dressing room (it didn't happen with SAF in 1990 for two main reasons: 1- Moyes doesn't have SAF's personality. 2- our current players are far more fickle than they were in 1990 and more of "glory hunters").. And if a manager loses the dressing room then there is no way back for him.
Add to that the fact that the manager plays an important role in any player signing for any team (SAF, Pep, Mourinho, Wenger... all proved to be able to attract players on their own). With Moyes still in charge of a team that doesn't play in the champions league, the chances are very small that we're going to attract quality players in the Summer.
Moyes really needs to take advantage of the favour West Bromwich did us today.. No more time for "bad luck", or "poor ref", or any other excuses. Just sort it out and start winning!
Add to that the fact that the manager plays an important role in any player signing for any team (SAF, Pep, Mourinho, Wenger... all proved to be able to attract players on their own). With Moyes still in charge of a team that doesn't play in the champions league, the chances are very small that we're going to attract quality players in the Summer.
Moyes really needs to take advantage of the favour West Bromwich did us today.. No more time for "bad luck", or "poor ref", or any other excuses. Just sort it out and start winning!
I understand this, I do, can't you see we have tried, I would be interested to know what we should have done given the Van Persie and Rooney injuries and also Kagawa proving a let down, Fellaini out, Cleverley poor Carrick average. There's been no other option but get it wide, whack it in unless of course there's an answer your about to give that I have missed.
I think that will change with Mata now here but what previously ? I would love to know.
I'm afraid that while Liverpool's personnel isn't that brilliant, it's not the issue. They are playing as a team, they have a style and a formation they are comfortable with. We're don't. Even with nothing more than a decent midfield pairing, I can't except how limited we are upfront and how we can't get the defending right either.
How come Martinez managed it as well as Pep?
It won't work since he's not Fergie.
There are loads of formations, tactics and options in the modern game from 50+ years of tactical football,theres a wealth of options and possible changes. We have alot of versatile players and have a squad with a decent amount of variety of playing styles. They may not all be United class but they all have their strengths and weaknesses to bring to the table which can be exploited in a different system. We havent seen anything in terms of different play even with the slightly different formation. Its the same play from the wings, even with the player behind the striker. Thats down to tactics and coaching.
The players we have really have nothing to do with implementing a vision or play style all they do is change how much success a certain play style attains.
You know what mate I have read many a post explaining this to me, but I have yet to read one that actually has some concrete formation that we have failed to try that would work with the players we have had at our disposal, by all means shoot away I am at this point completely ambiguous.
According to Pienaar, they started playing that way last year.
The only formations we have tried is 442, 4411, 4312 and within these two/three formations the only tactics we have tried is get the ball wide and cross. No one needs to tell you what else can be tried.
We've tried Rooney as a 10 Adnan and Kagawa all of which failed especially with RVP out.
4-4-1-1 is our 4-4-2 midfield bank of four and a top two.
4-2-3-1 is 4-4-2 if you play a central forward then one behind the striker with two wide men and two holding midfielders, there's literally no difference in shape on the field.
Simply put we don't (didn't) have the players to play through the middle, we have RVP and Rooney and the bonus ball of Mata now, let's give it a bit more time and see what develops. If he's still at it in 3 games time I will declare myself on the bandwagon of "you don't know what your doing".
Can you please tell me how you get this conclusion?
The only time I have seen us pressing was on the second game in pre-season. We are probably the worst team in the league when it comes to pressing.
Fluid football? Crossing every time you have a chance to cross and hoofing the ball from defenders/De Gea every time is basically the entirely opposite of football fluid.
Interchanging attackers? I have yet to see it.
Don't joke yourself mate and claim these things based on practically nothing. Didn't you said a few weeks ago that Moyes has proven that he can manage a big team because Rooney is playing better now?
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