Moyes So Far!

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Genuine question. Tell me one good reason you think Moyes will come good.

There are none. Those saying it will are going on blind optimism.

Using SAF was given time argument is quite frankly a ridiculous point to make.

To put an end to this whole SAF left Moyes a bag of shit argument:

1. The players do not believe they are going to win each week.

2. The fans don't believe we are going to win each week.

3. The manager does not believe we are going to win each week.

Now, any manager in the history of sport would not succeed with the above. The problem is its his responsibility to breed that confidence, that will to win, and ultimately that expectation. None of that has shit to do with SAF...its Moyes, and him alone.
 
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=thematch&id=1675

Good read about how deluded Moyes is if he thinks that getting to the bye line constitutes good play.

Am still for Moyes for at least 2 seasons. But it is predicated on indications of better and more varied attacking play. If from now till the end of the season he continues to be blind to the performances then I will be in the camp of been a big mistake.

It's not that he says these things in public to try and stop over criticising the team but even if he does not mean what he says in public then at least in the next game we should see a change in tactics which we are not and that is down to him and his staff.
 
There are none. Those saying it will are going on blind optimism.

Using SAF was given time argument is quite frankly a ridiculous point to make.

To put an end to this whole SAF left Moyes a bag of shit argument:

1. The players do not believe they are going to win each week.

2. The fans don't believe we are going to win each week.

3. The manager does not believe we are going to win each week.

Now, any manager in the history of sport would not succeed with the above. The problem is its his responsibility to breed that confidence, that will to win, and ultimately that expectation. None of that has shit to do with SAF...its Moyes, and him alone.

Good post.

I genuinely apart from Jones and Januzaj progress can't think of any other positive of this season.
 
We have had more attempted crosses in the league than anybody else and we rank 20th in terms of attacks through the middle.

20th. Below Stoke; below Fulham; below West fecking Ham.

20th.

Jesus wept.

This '% attacks through the middle' statistic seems to get repeated an awful lot, but I'm not sure it's necessarily the main problem with this side. It's true we do rank 20th in that regard, but Arsenal for example are 13th, Everton are 15th, and meanwhile Aston Villa are 2nd in the 'attacks through the middle' table, and WBA are 5th. The the top 4 sides in the 'attacks through the middle' table last season were WBA, Swansea, QPR and Fulham, none of whom finished in the top 4 of the actual Premier League table. I don't think, for example, there is necessarily a direct correlation between the % of 'attacks through the middle' and the number/quality of chances created, as was claimed in Adam Bate's article on the Sky Sports website last month.

In terms of crosses, it is true we have attempted more than anybody else, with an average of 27 per game. But we attempted an average of 25 per game last season under Sir Alex, 27 in 2011/12, 27 in 2010/11, and 31 in 2009/10. Traditionally we've always been at/near the top of the table for crosses, and it seems that not a lot has changed in that regard.

Clearly there are a lot of things wrong with this side, but I'm not sure those things can be boiled down to hard statistics in such a simplistic way.
 
This '% attacks through the middle' statistic seems to get repeated an awful lot, but I'm not sure it's necessarily the main problem with this side. It's true we do rank 20th in that regard, but Arsenal for example are 13th, Everton are 15th, and meanwhile Aston Villa are 2nd in the 'attacks through the middle' table, and WBA are 5th. The the top 4 sides in the 'attacks through the middle' table last season were WBA, Swansea, QPR and Fulham, none of whom finished in the top 4 of the actual Premier League table. I don't think, for example, there is necessarily a direct correlation between the % of 'attacks through the middle' and the number/quality of chances created, as was claimed in Adam Bate's article on the Sky Sports website last month.
You don't want to be top and you don't want to be bottom, you want to be in the middle, that shows you have variation to your play. Being 20th just confirms what many are saying, we're very predictable, and being predictable means we're very easy to stop, hence the fact we create very little.
 
I think it's fair to have this thread and the Moyes so far thread. It's just the silly random threads that aren't necessary. Finishing 7th would be an incredibly embarrassing finish for United, considering we had a title winning squad only last season. Like someone said before: Stoke had 1 point from 18, and we played withdrawn tactics against them? Starting with Smalling at RB instead of Rafael just for height is cowardly, and did change after 10 minutes, but against Arnautovic Smalling would have been crucified that game.

Surely there can't be many that have full belief that Moyes will bring out the best of this team at United, or even formulate a strong team that can challenge on all fronts? He has some very attack minded players in Rvp, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj , Evra, Rafael and (yes, I am going to mention him) Young, but yet he still can't set up an effective offense to break down teams. Something is genuinely missing and it's only going to get worse unless something is changed. As Moyes being sacked looks off the cards for the time being, we keep expecting him to make a turnaround, but as predicted he produces the same old out of this team.
 
It's amazing how you're willing to say that our squad who has won us multiple titles including the one last year is shit yet will defend a manager who has got them playng this badly without a wink. Players need a leader to play well and they don't have one in their current manager, quite clearly.

Rooney and van Persie were fit yesterday and we got beaten by Stoke.

Smalling and Evra aren't good enough. Our wingers are shite. Cleverley is shite. Welbeck's form is far too erratic. These are all starters in out first team, we lack quality.
 
You don't want to be top and you don't want to be bottom, you want to be in the middle, that shows you have variation to your play. Being 20th just confirms what many are saying, we're very predictable, and being predictable means we're very easy to stop, hence the fact we create very little.

Norwich, Palace and Cardiff are all in the middle, so were Stoke and Wigan last season. Chelsea are currently 3rd. I'm not saying our play hasn't suffered from being overly predictable, what I am saying is that this '% attacks through the middle' statistic which has been repeatedly trotted out over the last month since it was mentioned in an article published by Sky Sports, appears to have no discernible correlation with actual success on the field.
 
Moyes is constantly adding to his collection of unwanted records

Moyes-Records.png
 
Good post.

I genuinely apart from Jones and Januzaj progress can't think of any other positive of this season.

Agreed. His handling of Januzaj has been excellent (note im actually complimenting him!). Unfortunately for him, the basics of football management have escaped him.

I think he's on borrowed time. His whole, "there is going to be significant change" in squad point after Mata signing was baffling as well - a current squad already bereft of confidence will be brimming after that wont they!? Jesus. Some look like they have just downed tools and Moyes doesn't seem to understand that reflects on him. His handling of these players has been incredibly poor.
 
Norwich, Palace and Cardiff are all in the middle, so were Stoke and Wigan last season. Chelsea are currently 3rd. I'm not saying our play hasn't suffered from being overly predictable, what I am saying is that this '% attacks through the middle' statistic which has been repeatedly trotted out over the last month since it was mentioned in an article published by Sky Sports, appears to have no discernible correlation with actual success on the field.
I understand it doesn't correlate to success, being 10th doesn't mean you're a top side, you need the players, but what I'm saying is being bottom of attacks through the middle and top of the crosses table shows exactly what we're seeing on the pitch, we are very predictable and go wide all the time. That means it's very easy for teams to set up to stop us, because you can bet they look at this stuff before playing us. You're correct, statistics can be used to prove anything, I just think those statistics in this instance do seem quite telling.
 
@KM @LonelyFire

Agree on Januzaj. Moyes definitely deserves all credit for that. Had SAF still been in charge it's doubtful Adnan would have had much of a look in. Not sure Jones has made any leaps this season, contrary to what I was hoping last season, I think he's not good enough on the ball to play midfield, but de Gea has been extremely consistent given the shit we've been in and the continual changes in the back four. Which was also the case last season. I cannot wait for him to get a settled back four in front of him. For me, he's been our best player this season. I keep hearing how good Rooney has been, but apart from the free kicks, he's been maybe 60-70% of an in-form Rooney. Granted, most others have played even further below their potential...
 
I understand it doesn't correlate to success, being 10th doesn't mean you're a top side, you need the players, but what I'm saying is being bottom of attacks through the middle and top of the crosses table shows exactly what we're seeing on the pitch, we are very predictable and go wide all the time. That means it's very easy for teams to set up to stop us, because you can bet they look at this stuff before playing us. You're correct, statistics can be used to prove anything, I just think those statistics in this instance do seem quite telling.

Fair enough. The most worrying thing for me is our total lack of cohesiveness, everybody just seems to be doing their own thing. It's baffling because of all the criticisms you could level against Moyes', a lack of cohesiveness is never something you'd traditionally associate with one of his sides, on the contrary it's usually been one of their primary strengths. We desperately need to purchase some sort of creative midfield general, somebody to boss the play; I can't ever recall seeing a Manchester United side with such a low level of footballing IQ.
 
@KM @LonelyFire

Agree on Januzaj. Moyes definitely deserves all credit for that. Had SAF still been in charge it's doubtful Adnan would have had much of a look in. Not sure Jones has made any leaps this season, contrary to what I was hoping last season, I think he's not good enough on the ball to play midfield, but de Gea has been extremely consistent given the shit we've been in and the continual changes in the back four. Which was also the case last season. I cannot wait for him to get a settled back four in front of him. For me, he's been our best player this season. I keep hearing how good Rooney has been, but apart from the free kicks, he's been maybe 60-70% of an in-form Rooney. Granted, most others have played even further below their potential...

Rooney has put in effort - something all footballers should put in. The reason he looks so much better is more testament to his complete lack of respect last season. Hes doing what suits him - keep his stock high and see what comes in the summer.
 
I'm going to predict he'll get sacked a week after the final game if the season after finishing 7th, around 8 points behind Liverpool in 4th, and getting knocked out if the champions league quarter finals to whoever. Decent season for an Everton boss right? Too bad he's the united one now.
 
wrong, he's got a 6 year contract. They arent going to sack him anytime soon. Especially since they've just let him spend 60+ million in 6 months.
Get used to it

I agree that he'll be given plenty of time, in principle. However, surely there comes a point when it's simply not acceptable.

So far the only thing he's demonstrated is that he isn't good enough. Stubbornly sticking by him regardless of results is simply delaying the inevitable.
 
The lunatics have taken over the asylum. RAWK are you watching, sorry for laughing at you all these years, it seems that United fans are just as bad.

Liverpool fans were absolutely right to turn on Hodgson. It was the only decent thing to do. And Hodgson is Guardiola compared to Moyes.
 
I'm going to predict he'll get sacked a week after the final game if the season after finishing 7th, around 8 points behind Liverpool in 4th, and getting knocked out if the champions league quarter finals to whoever. Decent season for an Everton boss right? Too bad he's the united one now.

Don't really see the point doing it at the end of the season. Either sack him now or give him at least until November/December next season.
 
I agree that he'll be given plenty of time, in principle. However, surely there comes a point when it's simply not acceptable.

So far the only thing he's demonstrated is that he isn't good enough. Stubbornly sticking by him regardless of results is simply delaying the inevitable.
We're a long way from that point, he needs to rebuild this squad with his own players and he will get that opportunity this summer. He will then have 5 months to show what he's capable of doing. I don't think that 6 year contract means much in football, if this form continues into next season I think he will be gone by christmas.
 
This is pretty depressing when you see it in front of your face. Especially with the tools Moyes has at his disposal at United.

People keep telling me that 'man for man' Everton have a better team than United.
 
I've tried to defend him in recent weeks but I am starting to get the feeling he wants United to be like Bayern but has absolutely no idea how we can get there.

That said I honestly don't think United's board expect us to finish in the top four and will let Moyes have this season and next to get players in and build from it. My fear with that relates to the first point I made, he will not have any idea what kind of players to bring in and try and get any top players to mesh into position
 
Been avoiding saying anything for last 24 hours as I don't want to be reactionary.

There are many misguided viewpoints banded about for pro or con moyes.

ferguson was given time, so should moyes... The view here is that there is an inherent problem with new managers. Which is true, to an extent. However, ferguson did not take over a title winning side. Although, yes this title winning side is past its peak and was never going to be as good as last year, this doesn't excuse what is happening at all.

The fear is that we will turn into a club that hires and fires at the drop of the hat, ruining the stability that clearly helped fergie. Can't argue with that at all, but we have to accept that if the manager is not the right man, no amount of stability will bring success.

My view is that what we are seeing is too similar to chelsea under AVB. too many stories and rumours have come out regarding players' unhappiness, whether that be rvp's training, the general training scheme, lack of 'final third' training etc. All this shows (like chelsea) that the players are not happy paying under moyes. Now, this doesn't mean the players are right. Maybe it is so that they have been so spoilt under SAF and they cant accept having last years everton manager who has never won anything come with his everton back staff. Just because they may be WRONG to have that view doesn't mean it isnt there.

The one consistent aspect of our play this season has been just how slow it is. No pace, no speed. We get the ball, slow down to a stop, allow opposition to get in position, get forced to go down the wings, then cross to nothing.

There's no verve, no determination. All the players are sluggish, not providing options. Whenever they get the ball it looks as if they need that extra second yo compose themselves. There is no enjoyment, no confidence. Make no mistake, it is the job of the manager to fix this.

Again, this may not be moyes' fault. Its one of two things, either the players don't want to play for him, in which case i feel sorry for him as the is nothing he can do, or its simply that he doesnt have the ability. Personally I think its both but much more the former.

The fact is we need to stick our heads out of the sand. This magical blind 'patience' wont necessarily work. This team in its current state will not improve.

If its the fact that moyes and staff are nit good enough, then we need to get rid ASAP. That's obvious though.

If its the player's fault, then we need to wait a good two years to slowly gut this team and replace them with moyes' signings. Next summer may do a lot of that, but we'll need a good three or so transfer windows to do it. Meanwhile, all our main competitors will gave all strengthened too. Do all the moyes backers have that patience?

What if we can get a manager that the players instantly like and respect? We can still give that manager all the time in the world but we would have the team playing a lot better now. It sounds so simplistic I know, but just look at how much better city are this year with not THAT much different squad with a manager they dont hate. How the players feel about the manager and staff clearly has a massive impact on their performances, it doesnt excuse the players, but we cant ignore this factor (if its there...which I think it is)
 
I think he will be given this season and next season. But if things go just as bad next season then where does that leave us? Would he be turfed? I mean how much time would they be willing to give him?
 
We're a long way from that point, he needs to rebuild this squad with his own players and he will get that opportunity this summer. He will then have 5 months to show what he's capable of doing. I don't think that 6 year contract means much in football, if this form continues into next season I think he will be gone by christmas.
Then if he signs the wrong players, another poor manager is going to have another rebuilding job on his hands in the January.
 
We're a long way from that point, he needs to rebuild this squad with his own players and he will get that opportunity this summer. He will then have 5 months to show what he's capable of doing. I don't think that 6 year contract means much in football, if this form continues into next season I think he will be gone by christmas.

If this form continues why should he even be given until then?

Yes, it's not his squad.
Yes, the squad has numerous issues.
Yes, taking over from Fergie is bordering on the impossible.
Yes, it will take time to get it right.

However:
This squad did win the league last season so such a drop is very poor.
He shouldn't just be given time totally regardless, surely he should at least demonstrate he's good enough to deserve the time?
 
I think he will be given this season and next season. But if things go just as bad next season then where does that leave us? Would he be turfed? I mean how much time would they be willing to give him?
Depends how long we can go without champions league football. For me at best its a year. So if he doesn't do it next season (I don't think we can make it this season) he has to go
 
Depends how long we can go without champions league football. For me at best its a year. So if he doesn't do it next season (I don't think we can make it this season) he has to go

Thats what I would think as well, I hope he is not given too long. We could miss out on a season of CL football max.
 
Don't really see the point doing it at the end of the season. Either sack him now or give him at least until November/December next season.
I agree.
My worry is they give him another £100 million and things don't improve. I was all on for giving him time, however things are going downhill instead of up, it will be a massive gamble to give him that money.
 
@Dracula

I think we can get a manager in that all the players would respect. If anything, I think the appointment of Moyes and the ensuing months of mediocrity have prepared the ground for a new manager to come in in quite favorable circumstances (though I'd have preferred a top class manager last summer). The SAF factor has shrunk and we are crying out for a manager who knows what he's doing. Also, a top level manager would appoint a top level coaching staff and quite possibly have targets in mind already.

If it's a choice between waiting on Moyes maybe sometime figuring things out and in the meantime gut the whole squad or replacing him and getting the best out of what we've got whilst also keep strengthening, it's infinitely preferable to choose the latter
 
Don't really see the point doing it at the end of the season. Either sack him now or give him at least until November/December next season.
If it was up to me he'd be gone already, but he'll last to the end of the season since the board gave him the funds to sign mata. At the end of the season is a perfect time to change managers because they get a full pre season to do everything, get the players they want and start over. Changing mid season sometimes is hard and could be difficult to bring in quality replacements.
 
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