I think if you play Kagawa, Januzaj and Mata behind he top striker, the style will change somewhat itself. I can't see those three going out there and playing rigid football.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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He is, I mentioned before that in his first press conference Moyes was asked about the style of football we'll play. It was the time many would talk about the history of the club and attacking, exciting football and all that. He didn't, he said winning was the important thing.
I was thinking of that - and other comments like it - while I wrote. I think more recently he said he didnt have a particular football philosophy, he thought it was important to be adaptable or something like that. Ive got no issue with that, I like pragmatism. Let's not forget, when people grumble about Moyes it is not Martinez most of them are pining for, it is Mourinho. With Mourinho we'd be racking up more points Im sure but we wouldnt necessarily be playing beautiful football. Nobody is more pragmatic than Mourinho.
That's the hitch. If you're going to play that type of football it's got to be rewarding.
Depends on the instructions from the sidelines. There hasnt been any fluidity. Our better performances this season have come from individual brilliance - something SAF built the last 4 years around!
Who did Moyes have to sell at Everton aside from Lescott, Arteta and Rooney?
His record at Everton has been glorified beyond belief. He was good there I admit but he's been made out to have been a savior there. Yesterday someone told me Mancini hasn't been better than him.
To be fair you have to go back a long way to when he first took the helm there Sarni, when he joined they were usually finishing in the bottom third of the table, when he left they were usually in the top third. When people talk about him being a saviour I think they are looking at that longer term horizon.
We spent the game, bar one or two good but short periods (right from the start, among them) being bossed by Cardiff possession wise.
Defending, keeping it tight and trying to make a goal out of long range strikes and crosses - against the poorest side in the league at home.
Our attacking play is so static and devoid of movement it beggars belief. So what if Valencia's standing five yards infield, as opposed to standing on the touchline? It's still a rigid formation which depended on Ashley Young and/or RvP pulling rabbits out of his hat to create anything at all.
Not excactly a glorious statement of intent, is it?
I'm not saying he didn't do well there but when people instantly question Martinez's ability to sustain their current form it's sort of weird because Moyes hasn't exactly won multiple trophies with them. He's been there for half a season only and has done well so far so there's no reason why he cannot carry this forward.
Moyes did well at Everton but his job there is in no way impossible to replicate by another manager.
Lescott, Arteta, Rooney, Pienaar, Rodwell, Graveson, plus a half dozen good but not great players who had to be sold to finance newer signings, as the squad had to be kept small.
Glorified beyond belief? Saviour? There's no point in me or anyone else bothering to attempt to engage in a sensible debate if you are going to insist on being so hyperbolic and emotional.
You've deemed Martinez not capable of doing the same job on the basis of their signings so far even though he's currently sitting 6th with them, ahead of Moyes' United. Incredible isn't really the way to describe, very good yes but incredible was what Ferguson has done at United, Mourinho at Porto etc. Getting a side with mid-table potential to finish a bit higher is great but it isn't really 'incredible'.
Andy Mitten's column:
You should have a talk with Mr. Kenwright if you really believe that.
He was great there.
Not impossible that Martinez will do equally well.
Thought-provoking column by Mitten. Interesting read.
That may well be so, however at this early stage i think we should hold fire on attributing the cause for such to the management.
Carrick's long term job security notwithstanding it is likely that our current quota of CMs will be reduced by four without selling Fletcher, that sounds like quite enough work to getting on with. Yes in simple financial terms there could be a short term profit to be made, however i would like to hope that Moyes also recognises the benefits of keeping Darren as a key member of the squad.
Indeed. Makes you wonder - of course - precisely which senior figures we are talking about.
Also interesting to see his comment on the Fabregas saga. Puts things in a slightly different light. I've always thought there had to be something there - i.e. that we weren't as ragingly amateurish as some would have it at the time.
That's just because Martinez had a team relegated while Moyes kept a team in the top third for a decade with shoestrings. People just want Martinez to be good because they see it as an indictment of Moyes.
the article backs up exactly what we are seeing on the pitch. Hope it's not Carrick but could be. Rio seems a safe bet.
Looking at Mitten's last line, I don't think we'll have extra trouble attracting players due to not being in the CL one year. It will change if it becomes more than that, though.
I was thinking Carrick - based on nothing at all, be it said. Rio is a safe bet, yes - but his departure come summer would hardly surprise anyone. The same could be said for Evra and Vidic. The one senior player there hasn't been any whisperings about - and who has indeed been nothing but positive in interviews - is Carrick.
Hopefully not.
Vidic has come out in the press with some positive things. When he's been teamed up with Evans, we give up goals. When Evans is teamed up with Smalling, we look much stronger. Something is amiss with Vidic and has been all season.
Oh, I know what will be fun: A multi-quote off about the difference between "very good" and "incredible"! Oh gosh, it will be so fun. We could break down Moyes' 11 year spell at Everton season by season, transfer by transfer, event by event, decision by decision, match by match and judge each little bit on a scale of 1-53, with 1 being rubbish, 53 being absolutely staggering, and everything else being somewhere in between. We will first need a lengthy discussion to correctly decide on the scoring system. Personally I'd say very good would be in the 32-37 range, and incredible would be in 42-47 range. There's a grey area in between that we'll also have to decide a suitable label for. I'd suggest 'fantastic', but I'm open to suggest here. I'm anything but inflexible! After that, we will be able to accurately plot Moyes' Everton career on to the scale with scientific accuracy.
Golly, this is going to be a right hoot. I'm going to clear my diary for this evening and tomorrow, quickly pop to the supermarket to stock up on some snacks and supplies, and then we can get down to business and thrash this out once and for all.
True. He hasn't been himself. Well, rather Vidic than Carrick at this stage. Both United and Vidic may be best served by him moving along. And Rio looks done for, pure and simple. So if these two are the chief grumblers it could've been far worse.
Evra, Rio, Vidic and perhaps Hernandez if we consider him senior.
So far as the first one goes any disaffection must have its origins in Moyes' transfer dealings in the summer, the bids for Baines and Coentrao were a mess. Whilst it is hard for us to know the whys and wherefores behind the situation with the CBs, Hernandez certainly won't be contented with the game time afforded to him this season.
Well, yes and no, presumably we were still the ones who made the initial approach for Fabregas and then continued the pursuit long after it was rational to do so. There is no suggestion in Mitten's article that the player was any more willing to leave than previously thought.
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Fabregas was keen on coming to United. Mitten said so on UWS in the summer. United aren't idiots. There was definite interest from Fabregas. Whether it was him and his agent leading us on though, is a different story. But i think if push had come to shove, he would have come to United. Rosell definitely wanted to sell him.
Hard to tell if we made the initial approach - or if someone at Barca suggested that an approach might be worth the effort. I find it a bit hard to believe that we would've approached them out of the blue, given Fabregas' ties to the club (and his ties to Arsenal, for that matter, which would've made them a far likelier destination for him if he considered returning to the PL). Anyway, what the article does suggest very strongly is that there were indeed "signals" from Barca that would've made an approach plausible - and many denied even this at the time.
As for the first part - yes, I suppose those names are the most likely ones. The odd man out there is Hernández - I can easily see him being unsettled, but not for the reasons Mitten mentions. That sounds more like senior players being disgruntled because they've lost influence, as it were, and I don't think Chicharito ever had much of that.
UWS isn't the oracle you know, who were Mitten's sources?
Fabregas was feeling a little unappreciated maybe but hardly rushing for the exit, we'd have been a nice escape plan if it came to it but beyond that...
It was unlikely to have been an easy or certain transfer for a suitor, there were i am sure less challenging routes to improving the midfield for a new regime.
Interesting narrative for sure, but some/most of it is his own opinions. How does he know what players think privately in their heads? Yes he can glean certain things from certain players through observable cues, like on-field form or body language (hah), but they're as solid evidences of disgruntlement as likely to be clutching at straws. Or maybe I just like to think that we have a bunch of players with utmost professionalism with absolutely no qualms about shifting regimes, some of whom will be cleared out in the summer due to reasons other than lack of commitment. It's just me.
Carrick seems to amiable to be one of those he's talking about.
It's not written like it's his own opinions. It's written like inside information.
I beg to differ, but it's neither here nor there because that's my interpretation. Let's agree to disagree.
^ Barring that quote from Rio concerning when the team is announced and a few tweets that are open to interpretation, the squad hasn't been leaking like a sieve.
For all that i wouldn't be at all surprised were we to discover that Moyes had put a few noses out of joint, not always to his immediate benefit either i should imagine. If greater diplomacy would have produced better results history will be the judge i guess.
For all that i wouldn't be at all surprised were we to discover that Moyes had put a few noses out of joint, not always to his immediate benefit either i should imagine. If greater diplomacy would have produced better results history will be the judge i guess.
Mitten has written that as if it's fact and he's reporting what he knows rather than what he thinks. He does have connections at the club so it comes down to whether you believe him and frankly I do.
But then who is briefing Mitten, is trust of them implicit? If preparatory to a sale Moyes is putting out a certain narrative concerning the individuals in question, do you take that as read?
Take everything with a pinch of salt and a great deal of scepticism. That said I find myself reading that and believing it to be the case regardless of who his source is.
And what does it say to you about the state of the club under Moyes?
I take it you're trying to convey it as a negative. To me it says that several senior players aren't happy to no longer be first choice or happy with changes to systems, training routines and other such stuff. I expect it's because a lot of them have gotten too comfortable and don't like change at the tail ends of their career. To me it's not a negative on the club or Moyes but a massive negative to the professionalism and dedication of the players involved.
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