I was intrigued by our shape on the ball in that first half, it's a limited sample size with a midfield we're unlikely to see very often I know but I was struck by a few things. Firstly RVP and Mata were both dropping very deep, especially Mata who was often dropping deeper than Giggs to pick the ball up. Jones was almost slotting in as a 3rd centre-back with Evans and Smalling very wide centre-backs and Rafael and Evra pushed up as wing-backs. Young and Valencia, especially Valenica seemed to tuck in more too. I'm intrigued to see what's going on as it's a very limited sample size but I don't think Moyes is going to be able to introduce a drastically different style of Football mid-season and any changes that do happen we won't reap the rewards of until next season I think.
Moyes So Far!
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Not if we play Giggs in there. Fellaini I'm not sure on. The rest though can play a pressing game if the whole team does. It's not hard for them to do it. Cleverley thrives on pass and move football. Jones can harry around the pitch if let loose. Carrick and Fletcher have the requisite technical abilities to play football that opens up other teams. I've seen that out of the team when Fletcher, Carrick and Cleverley have played with some combinations of other previous midfielders. Just requires drilling into the team like most every other manager manages to do when they join a new team i.e Mourinho, Martinez, Guardiola. They imprint their ideas on their players regardless of the quality. Rodgers did this too at Liverpool with inferior players, not without problems of course but then the players he had were mediocre.
He should. I agree. We've not been helped by injuries though to be fair to him.
No, they bossed us in the second half until we scored, it wasn't just passing it around at the back, they were camped in our half and we couldn't get out for a good 10 minute spell. So much so the crowd actually went mental when we got the ball and went forward about thirty seconds before the goal. I agree that we don't have the players to press, but we're still most definitely pressing more than we were under Ferguson, it just isn't very effective.
Pressing. That's the key point I made and if you think Carrick can play a pressing game you've not watched him much over the last few seasons. Even at his best he stands off. Giggs isn't capable of running or trying anymore. Fletch is only just coming back from a bad injury. Fellaini hasn't settled yet and has been injured since arriving. Jones is a centre half and doesn't have the midfield nouse to play that game.
Only Cleverley from the players available to Moyes could have pressed today or pretty much all season. Rodgers did it at Liverpool with players not much inferior. Gerrard is a good player, Lucas is a Brazil international and one of the best pressers in the League, Henderson also presses the ball well this year.
Technique has feck all to do with pressing, that's all fitness and stamina along with midfield know how. We haven't had that yet under Moyes but I expect us to.
Did you actually watch the game?. There are signs of changes taking place. You claim to have played at a decent level so you of all people will understand changing the way a team plays doesnt happen overnight and also can take a season or 2.
Go watch the first 15-20 minutes again and you will see a couple of changes which were not a simple case of Mata being on the pitch. Firstly there was some very quick 1 touch passing with lots of really good movement off the ball. Also Valencia and Youngs starting positions when our defenders had the ball inside our own defensive third was infield, as opposed to out wide where we have seen our wide players in that scenario previously this season. That in itself is a decent indicator that there are changes to tactics coming. No team tries out a new system and nail it first time out, no matter what level and you of all people judging by your claims should know that.
We didnt spend the game going wide and crossing the way we have in previous games so surely that is an indicator of change?.
Did they bollocks. They had a half decent spell, but I bet if the two teams swapped shirts you wouldn't be claiming we bossed it with that Cardiff performance. They might have had a decent spell, but it's the premier league and you expect teams to.
Technique has a lot to do with pressing. you simply dont shut down space and rely on fitness and stamina. Your body position needs to be right when pressing to either force the opposition into spaces that arent dangerous or to force the players towards our own defensive numbers. Also along with the body shape needs to be curved runs when pressing to do the same. Add in the principles with 1v1, 2v2 and 3v5 defending and then you can press effectively. Also when to press and when not to press. Fitness and Stamina are only 1 part of the pressing equation.
I meant technique on the ball. Passing and shit. What you are referring to is what I called midfield know how in the post you quoted.
Still my point stands that Carrick, Giggs, and Jones can't be part of a midfield that's expected to play a high pressing game.
This won't be a comparison which Moyes would appreciate i'm sure, however what of Martinez and Wigan during the latter half of 11/12? Is it our players who wouldn't be up to the task or the coaches?
Going by the MUTV commentary there were a few occasions where the defence was exposed by Cardiff, although it is fair to say that our weakness in that area has been an ongoing trend rather than solely reflective of this evening.
Cardiff didn't create feck all from set pieces and apart from a ball across the box and one cut back from the byline I'm struggling to think of anything else they created.
Sorry was combining pressing with getting the team to play with movement. And I'm pretty sure I've seen Carrick play a pressing game. He wasn't great at it but good enough. He'd use his technical ability to play a good/great pass when it caught up to him. Wouldn't expect him to be in the face of the opposing CM as I could of Jones and Cleverley. I'm thinking more what Barcelona do where a couple players close down on the player, limits his options and forces a mistake. Carrick played almost every game last season. He's got the stamina. If Xavi can play constantly for Barca in a pressing game, why can't Carrick?
This is a side which has a lot of players who won't be here next year IMO and we are coming off having the same man in charge for 27 years nearly, it's a big, big change and it will take time.
They were exposed because our midfield is invisible.
Carricks not been very good this year and his strengths lie in cutting off passing avenues, making interceptions and passing. None of that is relevant to pressing the ball.
Who played in the middle when we destroyed Roma?
Not exactly. He should play according to the team he has, but that doesn't mean they can't play better, more exciting football and I said nothing about percentages! I said drop bollocks
(i.e., last min mistakes).I just think it might be longer until we see the fast-flowing stuff. Been longer than this season since we've seen that to be honest.
Well they must have had about 80% possession for that 10-15 minutes, so yes I would say we were bossing it if it was us. I wouldn't be happy with what they were doing with the ball, but then strangely enough I expect different standards from the Champions at home than I do from the worst team in the league away to the champions. And again, I never said "they bossed us", I said they bossed us for 10 minutes before we scored, which they did, creating some very promising openings, which they did, and the crowd got very anxious and went wild when we finally managed to get the ball and go forward, which they did. The worst sides in the league are regularly coming to Old Trafford and having longer "spells" of possession than they ever used to have, and like I said earlier, it's down to how shit we are when we don't have the ball. I don't have the stats but I'd love to see the figures for interceptions and tackles compared to other teams in the league, I doubt we'd be too high on that list.
Good lad, Moysie.
You can see the shits been put up the likes of Young and Valencia tonight anyway. Both played better than they have been doing for a while. This "last chance to impress me" attitude from Moyes should have a positive effect on the squad from now until May. Even if it doesn't, that's hardly the hallmark of a United player and we'll be well rid anyway.
Agreed. He's been mediocre. And yes those are his strengths. I find it hard to believe he's not capable of being part of a pressing game though. He's not 50. Him closing down a player singularly wouldn't work obviously. I'm not expecting him to be Fletcher in his prime. The right system and he's of the appropriate talent and physical levels to do it well.
Carrick and Fletcher.
All because our centre midfield is crap. Get even the lads we have fit and well and we'll improve drastically in that regard, get a top CM or two in and we'll be unrecognisable.
I agree with a load of what you're saying there btw, I'm just sick of hearing how we've been dominated from a few posters when we clearly haven't.
Am glad he isn't happy. Even when we scored the second I said I hope Moyes is angry regardless of the goal and then saw the look on his face, he was. At least he gets that despite the result, there is a lot of work to be done. Against a better side we would have been punished and there are a lot better sides to play in the near future.
Can't wait to see us have a great midfield once again. Just looked like one giant hole in the pitch at times for us tonight.
Oh, clearly I've misread you then. I think so as well. And not English so got confused with bollocks line as well. No worries.Not exactly. He should play according to the team he has, but that doesn't mean they can't play better, more exciting football and I said nothing about percentages! I said drop bollocks
I just think it might be longer until we see the fast-flowing stuff. Been longer than this season since we've seen that to be honest.
Here's where I disagree. Average players at Wigan have managed to transition to a new formation in the middle of the season and also managed to play decent football. If they can do it, we can. Much better than what we've seen so far. Better players in and the quality will improve of course. But the players we have can do it, just means some have to be dropped permananently or used in roles that don't muck it up.
I think he is finally standing up to the mediocrity our lot have given him. I will be interested to see how he fits Rooney, RVP and Mata in together
Our players might be better/have been better but our midfield isn't full of adaptable players. He's also never had a run with a settled midfield because of injuries.
so Everton under "attacking" Martinez have 35 goals? Same as "defensive" Moyes last season
No disagreement. I pretty much agree with all you've said, especially the part about dropping players. If, as I said, Moyes doesn't believe they can bring that football, they should be dropped. I think the football will improve with the returning quality players and when Mata gets used to playing with them.
Whole different ball game with a club like Wigan where they're not expecting to win every game.
Top teams who try changing everything at once usually find it hinders them.
Is that true?? What a strange statistic.
What's the points from this time last year do you know??
Even a bit of improvement would be nice. We've regressed from last season which was generally meh until we went behind. Not watched today's game yet due to work and heard we did different things so might be a start.
Just seen this on twitter, considering they've got a better striker now than Moyes ever had it shows how much all these positive/negative remarks are just shallow preconceived notions.
Wigan had some decent midfielders then too. Still cost them in the long run didn't it.
I'm going to be shot to pieces here but, I think Carrick is a goner in the summer
I haven't seen it either, but even the existing squad can play better than they have. Moyes has said this himself and I think he has put the frighteners on some of them to make that point. We will improve.
I don't know about gone, but there's so much talk about a new midfield...
Fletcher/Clev probably should be more worried
No way. Why would we get rid?
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