Moyes So Far!

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Listening to Talksport today and trawling through the Caf, it's safe to say we have some absolute clowns following this great club. The grief Moyes has been getting is beyond belief. Thankfully, there is also some more level headed fans out there - the ones who accept we are in a change, accept this seasons injuries, accept Moyes needs time.
Look at last season - RVP was a freak at scoring every slight chance. Imagine he had been fit thus far this season....all those little chances that others have fluffed, yet RVP would have buried. We would have had our heads up and probably gone on to win the game. Some of the football we have been playing this season has been just as dull as the last few seasons under Fergie, but we were putting away our chances. I think he has been massively unfortunate with injuries, especially to our 2 best players, so let's judge him when we have a full squad.
He has already tried in the transfer market to get the players we have been crying out for, for years. Mata is an absolute star to be signing. Fellaini will be a monster for us, once he is fit.
If you are one of the clowns calling for Moyes out, then get a grip and get behind him and the club. We have just had 20+ years of rubbing it in the face of every club in the land....if you can't take it! while we are having a bad spell then log off Facebook.
Moyes is trying to change the way we play, and if he does get us playing with this high pressing, quick passing football, then we will all be back on top soon......chill.
 
soapythecat said:
Moyes is trying to change the way we play, and if he does get us playing with this high pressing, quick passing football, then we will all be back on top soon......chill.
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Have you watched a single United game this year? Have we played like that under Moyes? Like Ever?
 
RedRover said:
Sadly, I agree regarding fergie in the transfer market over the last years of his reign. Although, perhaps this was more to do with not having the resources he wanted, or needed. You'd expect him to talk favourably about his own players - whether he actually believes what he's saying is questionable.

As regards Moyes I think the jury is still out on his approach. The fact that he wants Mata suggests he isnt likely to stick with the current system. He's targetting very good players, of (in my opinion) the right type to make us less predictable. As it happens at the moment his options are limited - especially given that the two best players in the sqaud by a country mile are injured.

The need for players is nothing new. Moyes was clear on his need for reinforcements in the summer - so he clearly knew that he had issues - but the club failed him. He's been left in a dificult position in that regard.
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I think that's one of the problems,teams now are analysing players and how they play ,They know our centre backs are young and prone to some errors and are all over them as soon as they get the ball, with Ferdinand and Vidic teams were at the half way line most of the time when they had the ball allowing them time to play it out
,like wise with Fletcher and Carrick they know they can run past them without any problem ,Chicarito they play a high line and how many times does he get caught offside ,the biggest culprit is Valencia head down run at left back no tricks no cutting inside completely sussed .

One thing I noticed last night is whenever Valencia plays, Rafael plays closer to the centre half, more often than not Valencia will then give a free kick away ,then again Rafael gives enough of those away . I could go on and on but we do have so many players who cannot do something different.

That's why I think Januzaj is so effective for us at the moment they don't have a clue what he is going to do next .
 
hungrywing said:
Excellent.

Perhaps a bit telling regarding the state of the caf that so many people were calling the post you responded to 'spot on' when in fact it wasn't.

That post was wrong, 07's is right.
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Thanks. I find it strange that so many people are so willing to blame Sir Alex for practically everything that has gone wrong this season.
 
There is no evidence at all that we've changed how we play under Moyes.

It's the same tumescent "get it wide" when on the ball and stand off the ball when we don't have it style of football we've played for the past few seasons.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Have you watched a single United game this year? Have we played like that under Moyes? Like Ever?
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We have come out the past few games playing high pressing football, then the team reverts back to it's usual bullshit, stand around, kick it out to Valencia crap.

So, do you think the team starts each game playing the way Moyes wants them to and then reverts back to the way we've been playing for three years or do you think the team starts out playing against Moyes wishes and then he gets then back into zombie football we've been playing for three years?

The only encouraging thing I've been taking away this season is the way we start games.
 
Colin129 said:
Eh? 4-4-2
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I may be wrong, but we weren't playing 442 when RVP and Rooney were fit earlier in the season. We can only assume that he has played 442 recently as that suits the players available to him. We can only speculate as we don't know the fitness of the players and how they have reacted to the way he wants them to play in training. Moyes knows a lot more about football and tactics than anyone on here, but most won't think that.
 
Ringo 07 said:
In the sense that half the fans have been saying what is happening now is not his fault and that Fergie has to accept a lot of blame for the mess etc..these kinds of arguments to take the blame off him.......I mean those arguments are just plain silly to be honest as the buck stops with Moyes as to our current situation but hopefully he can rectify it with the players that come in in January.....Mata is a very good start
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As it is with most things, this isnt simply a black and white matter. Fergie has to shoulder some blame in all of this. Its impossible for him not to. Moyes has made mistakes as well there absolutely no denying that either. Hes isnt getting off lightly though, have you read the papers today?

To say blaming Fergie for any of this seasons problems is "silly" is just pure nonsense. No matter how much people dont like hearing it, its true. Some fans will just never listen to any form of criticism of Fergie.
 
I'd like some of whatever soapythecat is having. He's seeing things that I'm definitely not seeing.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
We have come out the past few games playing high pressing football, then the team reverts back to it's usual bullshit, stand around, kick it out to Valencia crap.

So, do you think the team starts each game playing the way Moyes wants them to and then reverts back to the way we've been playing for three years or do you think the team starts out playing against Moyes wishes and then he gets then back into zombie football we've been playing for three years?

The only encouraging thing I've been taking away this season is the way we start games.
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Exactly, and if we had scored in that initial period when we were pressing well etc, then our heads would have stayed up and we would have pressed on. I really hope this is the case because with a fully fit squad, I think we will be brilliant playing this way. Once it clicks and the old United players get it...boom!
 
soapythecat said:
Yes, almost every one. That's why I said 'trying to change' the way we play. It won't happen over night.
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I think you are pretty much confusing United with some other team. Moyes tactics are like 10 years old - get the ball to the wing and cross(usually hitting the left/right back).
 
Enigma_87 said:
I think you are pretty much confusing United with some other team. Moyes tactics are like 10 years old - get the ball to the wing and cross(usually hitting the left/right back).
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I totally get why there is a lot of questioning of his tactical ability at the moment, and I will happily come back on here and admit I was well wrong, but let's give him a run with a fully fit squad able to play the 4321 formation he wants. I do think he is trying to change it, but the confidence isn't there.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
We have come out the past few games playing high pressing football, then the team reverts back to it's usual bullshit, stand around, kick it out to Valencia crap.

So, do you think the team starts each game playing the way Moyes wants them to and then reverts back to the way we've been playing for three years or do you think the team starts out playing against Moyes wishes and then he gets then back into zombie football we've been playing for three years?

The only encouraging thing I've been taking away this season is the way we start games.
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I don't think so. I think Moyes is trying to implement even more zombie like and more defensive approach to games. He tries to see out games like Fergie or Mourinho however I think even there he lacks the tactical approach to do so as results confirm that (S'land yesterday, Cardiff, Swansea, Soton, etc). That quick passing is long ball, we press usually when we're chasing the game, but when we're drawing or winning I fail to see that - see Newcastle, Spurs, Everton as example. We lack the ideas the creativity through the middle. The only one who is capable at the moment for that quick passing game in the center is used on the left wing.
 
soapythecat said:
I may be wrong, but we weren't playing 442 when RVP and Rooney were fit earlier in the season. We can only assume that he has played 442 recently as that suits the players available to him. We can only speculate as we don't know the fitness of the players and how they have reacted to the way he wants them to play in training. Moyes knows a lot more about football and tactics than anyone on here, but most won't think that.
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I'm sorry I can't agree with that, last night being a case in point. He appeared to pick the right team to play 4-2-3-1 and ended up still playing 4-4-2. Kagawa should have been in the 'No 10' position, which is his strength but was actually playing on the wing where Welbeck would have more effective.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Welbeck would have been most effective on the bench yesterday, he was awful.
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Well yes there is that, but in theory, Welbeck on the wing & Kagawa behind Chico would have been the obvious formation. Why did Chico keep coming so deep? It's not something he normally does that much, he isn't Rooney after all, it must have been at Moyes's direction.
 
Colin129 said:
I'm sorry I can't agree with that, last night being a case in point. He appeared to pick the right team to play 4-2-3-1 and ended up still playing 4-4-2. Kagawa should have been in the 'No 10' position, which is his strength but was actually playing on the wing where Welbeck would have more effective.
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Judging on how easily Kagawa got knocked off the ball last night, maybe he didn't see him good enough to go head to head with Cattermole (or whoever was going to play deep). Granted, the players were there to play 4231 last night but we don't know how the full picture.
 
I don't think I've seen us play a conventional 4-4-2 at all this season.

We've varied between what seems to be a 4-2-4, which is usually what results in our worst performances, and a 4-4-2/3-4-1-2.

In the 4-2-4, we end up with a flat line of wingers and strikers up top and our midfielders trying to feed them balls but looking completely inept in the process.

In the 4-4-2/3-4-1-2, our left winger tucks in behind the strikers, forming the '1' and our left back is essentially playing as a left midfielder. That's with the ball. Without the ball, the left midfielder that has tucked in generally has to move back out wide and one striker comes deep. I think this is the sort of system we look better in and is probably where Mata will come into play. I suspect that he'll be the left midfielder in the 4-4-2 that tucks in behind Rooney and RVP, though we may see him tuck in alongside Rooney behind RVP.

This also explains why Moyes has been searching for a good attacking left back since day 1. Whoever plays at left back has a lot of work to get through and probably wont be able to do this for a full season, hence the need for another to alternate with Evra.
 
I hope I'm right about this, but I do think Moyes is slowly trying to get us to play a 4-2-3-1 and the lineup most people were doing in the Mata thread will soon become a reality.

Make no mistake about it, Fellaini wasn't a panic buy and he was one that Moyes wanted all along. My issue with signing Fellaini was that if we were playing a 4-4-2 he wasn't creative enough and wasn't what we needed when we had Carrick, Jones and possibly Fletcher who were our more defensive midfielders which is Fellaini's supposed strong suit. That's in a 4-4-2. Teams who use a 4-2-3-1, the 2 in that are typically either slower players who can pass the ball like Alonso or Martinez (Carrick) and one whose a worker and good defensively but doesn't neccessarily posses the greatest footballing ability like Khedira or Fernandinho (Fellaini).

I've also noticed Valencia has at times played narrower than usual like a wide player in a 4-2-3-1 would, albeit with comical results. When players come back from injury we will have the players to make this work but it will take time. Old habits are hard to break and we've relied on get the ball to the winger for so long that our players will have to get used to not looking out wide first and foremost.
 
Think we need to actually start playing people in their position. How are they supposed to link up when we've got Welbeck on the wing, up front, in behind and all over the place, plus Kagawa on the bench one minute, then number 10, then the wing, with Januzaj doing the same, Giggs and Jones in and out, and an unsettled back 5. Of course injuries havent helped but i think when all are fit we need to be more regimental with regards to places. Versatility is good, but how are we supposed to get any sort of rhythm going?
 
Colin129 said:
Well yes there is that, but in theory, Welbeck on the wing & Kagawa behind Chico would have been the obvious formation. Why did Chico keep coming so deep? It's not something he normally does that much, he isn't Rooney after all, it must have been at Moyes's direction.
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The more obvious choice for me would have been subbing Welbeck for Young and moving Kagawa just behind Chicharito, thus be able to take control of possession.

Something like this
---------Chicharito---------
Januzaj --- Kagawa -- Young
------Fletcher----Carrick----

with obviously Januzaj and Young cutting inside rather than hugging the touchline like Valencia and crossing it to the aforementioned left back.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
We have come out the past few games playing high pressing football, then the team reverts back to it's usual bullshit, stand around, kick it out to Valencia crap.

So, do you think the team starts each game playing the way Moyes wants them to and then reverts back to the way we've been playing for three years or do you think the team starts out playing against Moyes wishes and then he gets then back into zombie football we've been playing for three years?

The only encouraging thing I've been taking away this season is the way we start games.
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That pattern is nothing new, it was very often the same under Fergie.

Think of how we started at Stamford Bridge last season. Or in the FA Cup game against Chelsea. Or think of the last two CL finals we played. High and intense pressing early on, dropping deeper and deeper as the match progressed.
 
Moyes lack natural leadership qualities and don't have the personality and the charisma to control a club like United, thats why he look and act so clueless. It doesn't matter if his other management skills are decent when he don't have the basic. After six month nobody knows his future intentions, that's a failure by itself. There is no signs what so ever that he knows what he's doing, still totally in the dark regarding formation, tactic or substitutions. It's more hit and miss then calculated moves. I just say Rooney/Kagawa in midfield...

People can talk all night long about giving him time but the results speak for themselves, with or without injuries. Right now we are a laughing stock and rightly so.
 
Enigma_87 said:
The more obvious choice for me would have been subbing Welbeck for Young and moving Kagawa just behind Chicharito, thus be able to take control of possession.

Something like this
---------Chicharito---------
Januzaj --- Kagawa -- Young
------Fletcher----Carrick----

with obviously Januzaj and Young cutting inside rather than hugging the touchline like Valencia and crossing it to the aforementioned left back.
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The only flaw in you plan is Young.
 
Siorac said:
That pattern is nothing new, it was very often the same under Fergie.

Think of how we started at Stamford Bridge last season. Or in the FA Cup game against Chelsea. Or think of the last two CL finals we played. High and intense pressing early on, dropping deeper and deeper as the match progressed.
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At least in the past it was often in games against big teams - as a supporter it's always been infuriating to invite pressure on but, at least more often than not there was belief in the team in our ability to hit teams on the break.

This season we are doing it even more, sitting back trying to hold on to something and that's because we are playing scared. United should know having been on the other end, usually pressure will tell on teams playing scared / desperate to just hold on. And we've definitely suffered a lot because of it.

The players shoulder a lot of the responsibility in not being able to be mentally strong and confident enough but, at least we should be seeing from the manager trying to get the team to push forward, to go for the jugular rather than try to hold on against lesser teams with 10 minutes to go. At least could be seen often by Ferguson by the players, which instilled confidence. Moyes can't completely fix the confidence issues but, him and the coaching staff need to be on the sidelines urging the team through out the game - at least right now till we can rely on the players to take care of themselves.

Between now and the end of the season - at the very least Moyes needs to at least get the team play with a constant urgency through out games, not just for 20 minutes out of 90.
 
I don't know what games people are watching thinking Moyes has made any changes.

It's been the same in most games. Drop deep with every passing minute
 
gasmanc said:
Let's not let Moyes learn how to play the Manchester United way, let's just expect it in his first season, yea sounds like a master plan.
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Learn??? Did we get him from a Championship club? He brought him in to manger us not use it as his on personal training course. Worse more pay him for it.
 
Colin129 said:
I'm sorry I can't agree with that, last night being a case in point. He appeared to pick the right team to play 4-2-3-1 and ended up still playing 4-4-2. Kagawa should have been in the 'No 10' position, which is his strength but was actually playing on the wing where Welbeck would have more effective.
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Your plan would be to take a bloke whos on a good goal scoring run and stick him on the wing
 
soapythecat said:
Listening to Talksport today and trawling through the Caf, it's safe to say we have some absolute clowns following this great club. The grief Moyes has been getting is beyond belief. Thankfully, there is also some more level headed fans out there - the ones who accept we are in a change, accept this seasons injuries, accept Moyes needs time.
Look at last season - RVP was a freak at scoring every slight chance. Imagine he had been fit thus far this season....all those little chances that others have fluffed, yet RVP would have buried. We would have had our heads up and probably gone on to win the game. Some of the football we have been playing this season has been just as dull as the last few seasons under Fergie, but we were putting away our chances. I think he has been massively unfortunate with injuries, especially to our 2 best players, so let's judge him when we have a full squad.
He has already tried in the transfer market to get the players we have been crying out for, for years. Mata is an absolute star to be signing. Fellaini will be a monster for us, once he is fit.
If you are one of the clowns calling for Moyes out, then get a grip and get behind him and the club. We have just had 20+ years of rubbing it in the face of every club in the land....if you can't take it! while we are having a bad spell then log off Facebook.
Moyes is trying to change the way we play, and if he does get us playing with this high pressing, quick passing football, then we will all be back on top soon......chill.
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Weird calling people clowns for presenting solid arguments as to why Moyes in not a good coach for United. Also, I can get behind the club but do not necessarily have to get behind the appointed coach.
 
Re: Welbeck and Kagawa. Kagawa doesn't stay glued on his wing whenever he's nominally playing there. The idea that he is forced to play the role of a traditional winger simply isn't true. He operates very frequently in the middle regardless of his starting position - with varying success, as we all know. Last night his average position (which doesn't say everything but it's certainly an indication of where he actually operates on the pitch) was much more central than wide. Up until the point when he was subbed off we played pretty much with Chicharito as the lone striker, Adnan in a free role and Welbeck/Kagawa as attacking midfielders in front of Fletcher/Carrick. A much narrower formation than what it would look like on paper.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Weird calling people clowns for presenting solid arguments as to why Moyes in not a good coach for United. Also, I can get behind the club but do not necessarily have to get behind the appointed coach.
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Well, that's not strictly true is it.
 
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Mihajlovic said:
Weird calling people clowns for presenting solid arguments as to why Moyes in not a good coach for United. Also, I can get behind the club but do not necessarily have to get behind the appointed coach.
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Why bother getting behind the team whilst your at it, they've been as much to blame on the field as whatever is, or isn't going on, off it, you could always try a different club with a much more proven coach to follow for a while until heaven forbid they change manager and have a wobble.
 
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