Moyes So Far!

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devilish said:
RVP and Rooney are injured. Januzaj is still young and Rafael hasn't set OT on fire this year. The difference between us and the likes of Chelsea is in terms of overrall talent. We may have a number of good quality players but the majority of them should be at a mid table side. Cant say the same about Chelsea.
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So what if they are injured? They'll be back shortly.

If you want to give one liners against the united players I can do the same:

Mata - Doesnt play and is as good as gone (maybe to us).
Cech - Good.
Willian - Started fairly well. Hardly proven in England at all.
Oscar - Not the finished article. Doesnt compare to Rooney or RVP.
Azipilucueta - Not better than Rafael.
 
devilish said:
If that's the case then its time (NOW) to perform. Honestly we lack a good cover/competition for Rafael (Valencia/Smalling/Jones are shit in that position) and the left back role need a complete revamp. Im sick of hearing about potential and theories. We need results on a consistent basis and we need them now.






I have been having a realistic look on our team for years. I have been showing my concerns about the dip in quality we've been witnessing for years with players like Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs and Keane not being adequately replaced. However I was derided because until the trophies kept flowing in, many prefered to bury their head in the sand.

I am not saying that Moyes shouldn't get his fair share of blame and as you say he's a midtable manager who probably bit more then he chewed. However lets not put all the blame on him either. Apart from the forward line (which went missing due to injuries) this side is pretty average.
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I won't blame him if we barely made it 4th or miss it at a canter while showing signs of "how he actually wants to play". But we are so far off the mark it goes beyond ageing players and lack of quality, something definitely lies more than that

You can lose matches as long as there is a clear vision of how he wants us to play, doing the basics right. But he has done neither, no visible changes, no tactical changes to adapt to different teams, no changes to adapt losing RvP / Rooney / Carrick, no tactical nous at half times to counter teams, nothing so far that indicates he knows what he has been doing, and nothing promising in the long run.

We won't lose this much with RvP/Rooney/Mata I give you that, but it'll only paper over the crack, we have no "Basic Team Play", that is what is worrying. It's not merely the result, but the manner of the result.
 
Sky1981 said:
The old guard is good enough as cover. Jones / Smailing / Jones was meant for the future with Vidic / Rio slowly phasing out

De Gea - Lindegard (I don't see any teams with better players in this department)


Fabio / Buttner was for Evra (albeit the later is shit)
Smailing / Jones / Evans with Ri
Rafael @ RB : A position covered with Valencia / Smailing / Jones for occasional rotation


Well we aint got beat by Bayern or Barca, we got beat by Cardiff, Sunderland, Newcastle, Everton, and for the love of god don't twist it like we're some relegation fodder whose not only beaten but outplayed by half the league at our home ground.

And the sad thing is, take a look at the pre match thread against Sunderland... people are happy for us to lose to avoid spanking from City... wtf has we become? We used to relish getting the big guns in CL, now we're cowering against Sunderland?

Give him time and faith all you want, but let's call it as it is. He's a midtable manager, midtable coaches, midtable mentality, and he's not actually bad, he's doing what he has been doing in years, getting a team to midtable.
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Did we get beat by Cardiff? I thought it was quadruple City that did.

How the feck do you know how good our coaches are? Too much crap is being repeated here until it becomes some sort of god-given truth. None of the top managers posting here have a clue how good the previous coaching stuff was or how crap the current set is. We've had the most stable football club among the European elite for a quarter of a century.

The reaction here after 3-4 turbulant months is frightening when you consider the fortunes of recent European champions such as Inter and AC Milan. We could well be in for 2-3 tough seasons, so stay away from ropes and sharp objects.
 
holyland red said:
Did we get beat by Cardiff? I thought it was quadruple City that did.

How the feck do you know how good our coaches are? Too much crap is being repeated here until it becomes some sort of god-given truth. None of the top managers posting here have a clue how good the previous coaching stuff was or how crap the current set is. We've had the most stable football club among the European elite for a quarter of a century.

The reaction here after 3-4 turbulant months is frightening when you consider the fortunes of recent European champions such as Inter and AC Milan. We could well be in for 2-3 tough seasons, so stay away from ropes and sharp objects.
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So how we know SAF is that fecking good? Mourinho is good?

It could have bene the player that was good.

FFS... we don't know how bad our coaches are?
 
We've been creating chances recently, it's just that we've not had any goal scorers on the pitch to finish them off. It's been difficult for Moyes with RVP and Rooney injured, and kind of forced his hand to play Young since he's one of our few players with a decent finish.

More than team philosophy I think we just need to get people shooting on goal and getting in the box - it's clear that's what Januzaj has been instructed to do and Mata will hopefully help that.
 
Sky1981 said:
So how we know SAF is that fecking good? Mourinho is good?

It could have bene the player that was good.

FFS... we don't know how bad our coaches are?
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No, we don't. what were Phelan, Rene et al good at? Do we still need CQ back, because at one stage all our succcess was credited to his tactical genius.
 
I've defended Moyes a lot but that was perhaps the worst performance of our season. We weren't great under Sir Alex but we were never this bad. Has to turn this around quickly
 
amolbhatia100 said:
So what if they are injured? They'll be back shortly.

If you want to give one liners against the united players I can do the same:

Mata - Doesnt play and is as good as gone (maybe to us).
Cech - Good.
Willian - Started fairly well. Hardly proven in England at all.
Oscar - Not the finished article. Doesnt compare to Rooney or RVP.
Azipilucueta - Not better than Rafael.
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We tend to overrate our players while underrating opposition. I am sure all those players would walk in our side apart from cech.
 
Sky1981 said:
I won't blame him if we barely made it 4th or miss it at a canter while showing signs of "how he actually wants to play". But we are so far off the mark it goes beyond ageing players and lack of quality, something definitely lies more than that

You can lose matches as long as there is a clear vision of how he wants us to play, doing the basics right. But he has done neither, no visible changes, no tactical changes to adapt to different teams, no changes to adapt losing RvP / Rooney / Carrick, no tactical nous at half times to counter teams, nothing so far that indicates he knows what he has been doing, and nothing promising in the long run.

We won't lose this much with RvP/Rooney/Mata I give you that, but it'll only paper over the crack, we have no "Basic Team Play", that is what is worrying. It's not merely the result, but the manner of the result.
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I agree if we dont get to 4th place he should be off. Unless.... Theres something we dont know about (ex a severe resistance to change)
 
devilish said:
We tend to overrate our players while underrating opposition. I am sure all those players would walk in our side apart from cech.
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And probably just as many would walk into Chelsea's team. I'm pretty sure you'd view this much for favorably in our favor if Mourinho was in charge of United and Moyes in charge of Chelsa.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
We were outplayed after we took off the one player who could hold onto possession. We had two effective offensive players. They pushed us into our own side because the players were incapable of retaining possession.
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I disagree. We were dropping deep right from beginning of the second half.

That for me was the worst of the season.i get why people think moyes should get time but i really don't see this changing. Some things just aren't meant to be and this looks like one of them. I just fail to see what hes doing - it really is basic lump it into box material. Its fecking incredible that these players look like theyve never controlled a ball in their lives - to the point where you really feel like questioning exactly how much work they do with a ball during training.

There has been no signs that this is going to change - moyes should be worried
 
amolbhatia100 said:
And probably just as many would walk into Chelsea's team. I'm pretty sure you'd view this much for favorably in our favor if Mourinho was in charge of United and Moyes in charge of Chelsa.
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cant stand this type of reasoning to be honest with you. Mata's situation shows these type of things arent always clear cut. I expect most people thought that at the beginning of the season, Mata would be a first team regular in Chelsea's Mourinho. That didnt pan out to be the case and Mourinho has his reasons for it despite Mata being a top quality player.

The point being, it's not always the case that X player would walk into a certain team based on quality alone. It just doesnt always work like that and thank god it doesn
 
MikeUpNorth said:
They haven't performed anywhere near their ability, but I don't think that's because they're not trying to play well. Some lack the ability, some are in poor form and pretty much all are (understandably) short on confidence.
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I agree with that.

Good players haven't become bad - it's far more likely that they're really low on confidence.

And some players have always been over-estimated, but have managed to produce when surrounded by the better players who were in form. Plus they had a manager who we know was capable of inspiring them to better things. Fergie had a unique talent for that imo.
 
His appointment was a mistake. Unfortunately, the club will stick with him for another season or two. The next manager will be in a more difficult situation for it will be more difficult for the club to sign top players for reasonable fees and wages. Hopefully, I'm wrong though.
 
We needed a proven winner who is able to develop our system. Fergie and the board made a huge mistake by appointing Moyes who just does not have the format of a top club manager. As others said, the club offered a 5 year contract and since Fergie said they will stick to their manager, he will be here for another 2-3 years.
 
In the summer most of us thought we needed 2 or 3 new first XI players to keep us as trophy challengers, especially in Europe. Plus 2 or 3 high potential players coming into the squad. Anyone who was looking for more than 5 or 6 players would have been derided for their ridiculous level of muppetry and lack of faith in the players and SAF's choices.

Three months and we were hearing talk of half the squad needing to go.

Now apparently we're down to RvP (injured), Rooney (injured/leaving), Januzaj (knackered) and DdG (who also messed up last night). Sure we can complain about the lack of fight shown by some of them, a lack of pride and professionalism even but I didn't notice many of them laughing and joking last night. I did see a lot of players with their heads down who looked desperate for a leader.

I also heard that the new management were going to get our fitness levels up and training had changed to deliver it. 6 months later and we look knackered in the last 10 minutes every week and fit to drop faced with extra time.

Here's my suggestion - whatever we're doing in training, stop it. "The training ground should be a happy place," said SAF, let them concentrate on that instead. Send Januzaj on a week's holiday, but make sure he knows it's a reward and a rest, not a punishment, and that it's what we used to do with Ronaldo. Tell Moyes his main job is to breathe some life into the squad he's got, because we won't be replacing 20 players at the end of the season.
 
I am starting to feel sorry for him, the players are badly letting him and themselves down, but our non existant tactics and the players seemingly not wanting to (or not able to) play for him makes me question if he should be here.
 
The most important players of the dress room are against him, van persie, rooney, rio etc

Van persie thinks that moyes is an idiot

He needs to get rid of them, or they will get rid of him sooner or later, more sooner than later.
 
Ixion said:
I am starting to feel sorry for him, the players are badly letting him and themselves down, but our non existant tactics and the players seemingly not wanting to (or not able to) play for him makes me question if he should be here.
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That is contradicting. Of course the players are "letting him down" if we dont have the right tactics and he cant play a system that gets the best out of our players
 
The main thing is this team won't elevate themselves for Moyes like they did for Fergie. The ones that do will be staying the ones that don't will be gone in the summer. I'm still willing to give the fella a chance to build his team and if that team involves the likes of signings like Mata then I think the future looks bright. I'm willing to take this season on the chin as it's the season that will finally sort out all those problems we've all known are there.
 
Gladiator said:
cant stand this type of reasoning to be honest with you. Mata's situation shows these type of things arent always clear cut. I expect most people thought that at the beginning of the season, Mata would be a first team regular in Chelsea's Mourinho. That didnt pan out to be the case and Mourinho has his reasons for it despite Mata being a top quality player.

The point being, it's not always the case that X player would walk into a certain team based on quality alone. It just doesnt always work like that and thank god it doesn
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It wasn't my reasoning. I was just replying with like for like.
 
::sonny:: said:
The most important players of the dress room are against him, van persie, rooney, rio etc

Van persie thinks that moyes is an idiot

He needs to get rid of them, or they will get rid of him sooner or later, more sooner than later.
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You must be ITK...
 
I think its time that the club starts to focus more on the manager. Ffs we still have SAF as director, its time we start using him. Moyes should be given the money to build a new side. However all his decisions would be under scrutiny. The last thing we would want is him spending 100m on rubbish just as king kenny did at poo
 
Escobar said:
That is contradicting. Of course the players are "letting him down" if we dont have the right tactics and he cant play a system that gets the best out of our players
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Maybe contradictory, but I mean even with non-existant tactics its a squad of League, Cup and Champions League winners, they should be capable of stringing together more than 3 passes or keeping possession for longer than 20 seconds, they are the ones with experience winning things not Moyes. They should be doing better whatever the tactics are.
 
::sonny:: said:
The most important players of the dress room are against him, van persie, rooney, rio etc

Van persie thinks that moyes is an idiot

He needs to get rid of them, or they will get rid of him sooner or later, more sooner than later.
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How do you know this?

But at the moment he is making it hard to defend himself.

Kagawa going off was a strange decision. We should have started with him behind Welbeck or Hernandez.
 
Moyes' been incredibly unlucky in terms of injuries and results... things will settle down... cannot wait to see Roon and Robin back.
 
What i want to say is that i feel sorry for Moyes, I do think the guy is jinxed or something.


Yesterday was a perfect example of it- the best keeper in the league fails to make a routine save…things goes bad…..then he gets a lift because of unexpected goal…yeah things go well….and then his players fail to kick the ball from 12 yards….a rollercoaster of emotions finished with a crash.


It doesn’t help that he misses his best players, that refs make wrong calls, some players seem uninterested.


As I said I honestly feel sorry for him. It’s a human compassion.


I think he has some qualities giving him the right to keep the job (integrity, work ethic). There are some things he lacks (charisma, leadership).


Ultimately it goes down to football pitch and what is played by his team – and I’m afraid that the end product he wants to achieve is simply out-dated, archaic football.

I think that hiring him was a mistake in the first place, he’s out of his depth.


Should we sack him now? No, if the downhill trend continues to January 2015 then we may think about it.


As for now- he needs some sort of a positive message and influence those around him with some positivity. The mata deal may do the trick.



One thing,


His teams were supposed be super fit. To me it looks completely the opposite.
 
prateik said:
Vidic getting stupidly sent off. Evra getting caught out all season. Both are likely to leave at the end of the season.
Rio has seemingly retired already.
Rooney has played very well.. but he is apparently still looking for a move.
Nani has never looked bothered.

Apart from Carrick and van Persie, every senior squad member has a reason to not care. (Fletch joined in late). Add Valencia to the list but I don't think he can do much either way.

First we need to decide if Moyes is the man.. The club clearly feel he is.
Fergie talked about power and control.. Moyes needs it. Let him shape the squad how he wants. Get rid of the big names if that is what it takes. Get players in that will play for him.

Last thing we'd want to do is give players like Rooney more power
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The awkward situation we have is that the club want to give him time, like they did with SAF. That is fine if he is the right man as SAF proved to be. The problem is whether David Moyes is the right man. If he is great, if not it could be a disaster for a club like ours. It now all depends how the board react.
 
Sunny Jim said:
What i want to say is that i feel sorry for Moyes, I do think the guy is jinxed or something.


Yesterday was a perfect example of it- the best keeper in the league fails to make a routine save…things goes bad…..then he gets a lift because of unexpected goal…yeah things go well….and then his players fail to kick the ball from 12 yards….a rollercoaster of emotions finished with a crash.


It doesn’t help that he misses his best players, that refs make wrong calls, some players seem uninterested.


As I said I honestly feel sorry for him. It’s a human compassion.


I think he has some qualities giving him the right to keep the job (integrity, work ethic). There are some things he lacks (charisma, leadership).


Ultimately it goes down to football pitch and what is played by his team – and I’m afraid that the end product he wants to achieve is simply out-dated, archaic football.

I think that hiring him was a mistake in the first place, he’s out of his depth.


Should we sack him now? No, if the downhill trend continues to January 2015 then we may think about it.


As for now- he needs some sort of a positive message and influence those around him with some positivity. The mata deal may do the trick.



One thing,


His teams were supposed be super fit. To me it looks completely the opposite.
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Pretty vital ingredients for a team like United...that's for sure...
 
shaggy said:
Never happening with Moyes is it. I hope behind the scenes the club are looking for a replacement for the summer. Nothing wrong in admitting we made the wrong choice and moving on.
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They were saying on Talksport this morning that Ferguson just chose Moyes and the board went along with. If they didn't even have some sort of short list that is ridiculous. SAF would have known if they compiled a short list of the top managers to take over, Moyes record would not have stood up against the others. He should not have been allowed to chose the manager.
 
I don't think he'll be able to turn it around. His decision making so far has been baffling, the team doesn't look motivated at all and we haven't looked good outside of 3-4 games at all. I know we could look a bit sluggish last season and didn't exactly set the world alight with our performances, I realise we needed van Persie to dig us out of trouble on a few occasions but never did we look this poor. We've seen the likes of Sunderland, West Brom and Newcastle play better than us in patches at Old Trafford (in West Brom's case they dominated the whole game, one of few away victories for them too), players don't seem motivated and Moyes doesn't look like he has a clue.

I just hope that we'll own up to our mistake and replace him in the Summer if our performances don't improve. There's no question that this team is capable of far more than they have shown so far and if he cannot get them to finish at least in the top 4 then he doesn't deserve to stay here any longer. Just replace him with an experienced manager with pedigree who could get these players to play football again, it's not happening so far.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
They were saying on Talksport this morning that Ferguson just chose Moyes and the board went along with. If they didn't even have some sort of short list that is ridiculous. SAF would have known if they compiled a short list of the top managers to take over, Moyes record would not have stood up against the others. He should not have been allowed to chose the manager.
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I agree.

Why did we feel the need to rush such a decision also? Could have held off until end of May.
 
Steven Seagull said:
The worst part about all this is we're now 4th in the standings of worlds richest clubs. Knocked off our perch by Bayern, Barca and Badrid.

The party is over chaps.
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That's nothing to do with Moyes you know.

And apparently we'd be third again next year with the record breaking tv deal.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
The awkward situation we have is that the club want to give him time, like they did with SAF. That is fine if he is the right man as SAF proved to be. The problem is whether David Moyes is the right man. If he is great, if not it could be a disaster for a club like ours. It now all depends how the board react.
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Exactly. At least Ferguson earned his time by winning trophies at Aberdeen and building a genuinely great side over there, a side of winners. Moyes has no experience building winning teams, all he's done so far was establishing a fairly ordinary Everton side in the mid-table range - well, if that was our aim then he's on a good way to do so here but I reckon United should aim a little bit higher than 5th.

Besides Fergie did not inherit a title-winning side. He had to change things and build a new team. Moyes needed to make a few changes but he was left with a more or less complete team by Ferguson, midfield aside. People would have you believe that we're a mid-table team quality wise but the potential of this lot is rather big, I think.
 
I feel sorry for Moyes at the moment, and I still don't believe that it is possible for any management team, however bad they are, to actually coach a squad of players to be this much worse than they were last season.

We haven't really changed the system at all, apart from pressing better than we ever did under Ferguson (which is something we all wanted).

Its a perfect storm of shit situations at the moment. Change of management, injuries to key players and a lack of confidence and luck bought on by the situation.

I feel that I have learnt more about this squad of players than I have about Moyes this season. Some of them are just not good enough, and we are a squad that is absolutely dependant on certain players being available to keep us to a competetive level. Those players haven't been available as often as we have needed them to be.
 
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