No one said 150m in one window. Over two years, probably.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Yes really, team is more than good enough than to go to penalties with Sunderland.
I didn't realize DDG made his error during the pens.
Common, we tried to cling on to a 1-0 lead at Old Trafford against Sunderland ffs.
We were outplayed after we took off the one player who could hold onto possession. We had two effective offensive players. They pushed us into our own side because the players were incapable of retaining possession.
Which is slightly more than what we normally spend anyway.
but this.Do you honestly believe that the quality of players we lined up today isn't better than that of Sunderland's? At home? Colback and Cattermole?? Brown Oshea and Bardsley? Players we decided weren't good enough for our club years ago? Moyes has to take the blame at some point.
It doesn't matter if they aren't playing well. Your point is irrelevant.
Who's job is it to make them play well?
Obviously not Moyes. As the manager, he is absolved of any responsibility of how we perform.
You're going to find this shocking but since they have control over their own bodies, it's their job to play well. It's the managers job to use tactics that enable them to succeed. Cool how you absolved those in the bodies of being responsible for their bodies though.
Moyes was terrible today and the players were equally as bad.
Moyes is not the only one on on our wage bill. Our players are on top wages too. If we want to sack Moyes for incompetence, the players must be culled for deliberately underperforming too.
That would make sense if we had an absolutely awful squad, but as has been mentioned before, we won the league with this squad last year (a few injuries aside this year of course). A more accurate assessment is that Fergie was able to get a group of players to play to their peak potential, whereas Moyes has not been able to do so. Its the only rational explanation aside from the injuries we've had this year. Let's see how things go with RvP and Rooney back, Nani returning, and Mata coming on board. If we don't improve significantly (and by that I mean roar back into title contention), then there's something very wrong in the management department.
Moyes isn't to blame for the penalty misses (though the penalty taker selection is a different matter), nor is he to blame for DDG's blooper.
Tactics and player-form aside, those individual mistakes caused the loss.
Tactics and player-form aside, those individual mistakes caused the loss.
Which is exactly why I'm saying that players should also be culled deliberately underperforming. They won the league last year after all...
That's up to the manager. The overarching point here is its the manager's responsibility and there is something innate to Moyes' methods/tactics/personality that has resulted in our underperformance. When clubs underperform its the managers who are responsible, and accordingly face the sack.
No but that's a one off. As a whole everyone has been consistently shit (bar a few). So the fact that they missed the penalties was a culmination of how abysmal the season's been. Moyes has to take blame for the players just being so horrifically poor because we know they are better than that.
On a side note, the worst penalty taking decision ever was by Melbourne Victory against Sydney in the Grand Final where only one player who'd taken a penalty before was in the first five. Both strikers missed out of the first 5 and an 18 year old defender and a 22 year old loanee, both of which had never scored before, took penalties.
That's my problem really. The fact that players can deliberately underperform for a manager despite being on massive wages and yet not be at a risk of losing their jobs sickens me. Accountability should apply to everyone at the club.
They are under the same risk, you can sack players, but it just makes no economic sense to do so.
It's cheaper to replace an under-performing coach than to cull the squad.
Moyes has his fair share of blame. However this side is particularly weak and I feel that they didn't took the change very well.
The players are on their high wages due to market logic and shouldn't be any more or less accountable than players on lesser wages at smaller clubs. They need a manager who has the gravitas and credibility to manage a big club, which was one of the big concerns of Moyes coming in the first place. This is not a "learn as you go" job. The manager needs to have the experience and organizational skills of having previously successfully managed a big club.
True. However culling the squad is what we need. In the defense the old guard is gone while in midfield we lack some serious quality both in CM and on the flanks. No matter whom we're going to bring we will still have to do some massive investment.
Its all a matter of whether we should trust Moyes with so much money in hand or not.
I can't believe how people shifted the blame to players, SAF, glazer, Ed, ref and all that when the problem is simply we have a midtable manager.
You can argue to still have faith, to give him time, and all that but for feck sake stop being blind to the actual problem : A shit manager
You can argue to still have faith, to give him time, and all that but for feck sake stop being blind to the actual problem : A shit manager
That's how it works unfortunately. Managers depend on players to perform. That's why SAF has mellowed down. Today you simply have to smile, keep the players happy until its time to get rid of the bad elements of the team.
its more then that.
How many of these players would walk into Bayern or Barca team? We talk big but we dont have the quality side to proof it
We are shit, with a lot of overrated players like Phil Jones IMO
But, we have an utterly shit manager also
The old guard is good enough as cover. Jones / Smailing / Jones was meant for the future with Vidic / Rio slowly phasing out
De Gea - Lindegard (I don't see any teams with better players in this department)
Fabio / Buttner was for Evra (albeit the later is shit)
Smailing / Jones / Evans with Ri
Rafael @ RB : A position covered with Valencia / Smailing / Jones for occasional rotation
Well we aint got beat by Bayern or Barca, we got beat by Cardiff, Sunderland, Newcastle, Everton, and for the love of god don't twist it like we're some relegation fodder whose not only beaten but outplayed by half the league at our home ground.
And the sad thing is, take a look at the pre match thread against Sunderland... people are happy for us to lose to avoid spanking from City... wtf has we become? We used to relish getting the big guns in CL, now we're cowering against Sunderland?
Give him time and faith all you want, but let's call it as it is. He's a midtable manager, midtable coaches, midtable mentality, and he's not actually bad, he's doing what he has been doing in years, getting a team to midtable.
How many of Chelsea's players would get into those teams?
And people need to realise we're not talking about being as good as Bayern or Barca. We're 7th FFS.
I still feel some sympathy towards his situation - everything seems to be going against him. We'd actually been pretty solid in defence until DDG screwed the pooch. That was literally their only shot on target in 120 minutes.
I'm glad he came out and said how rubbish we were too. Finally some realism.
If you think that in 2 weeks time it's possible we'll have Vidic, Nani, Rooney, RVP, Fellaini and Mata back into a starting XI, think things should be a bit different.
This process has been a lesson in how little 'potential' some of our squad players have. A lot of players that have been on the fringes during Fergie's reign have been given a big chance, and almost none have come through.
I'm glad he came out and said how rubbish we were too. Finally some realism.
If you think that in 2 weeks time it's possible we'll have Vidic, Nani, Rooney, RVP, Fellaini and Mata back into a starting XI, think things should be a bit different.
This process has been a lesson in how little 'potential' some of our squad players have. A lot of players that have been on the fringes during Fergie's reign have been given a big chance, and almost none have come through.
I can think of a couple of players who wouldn't look stupid at Barca and Bayern such as Mata, Cech, Willian, Oscar, Azipilucueta etc. They'll certainly walk in our side.
And you need to realise that just because we're not good as Bayern and Barca, teams would still play against us as if its their CL final game. The pressure for our manager and players to perform is still high. We have a big club ambition without the talent to proof that
What the hell does Andy Mitten mean when he says Moyes doesn't even tell the players his tactics???
Ha, heard him say that on the radio earlier and it made me laugh. Think he meant his long term tactics and vision, though it would explain a lot...
So do I. He hasn't had any luck with injuries, most notably to three of our principal players - Rooney, RvP, and Carrick. I'd imagine we would be in the top 4 with a fit squad. That said, he hasn't helped himself with some of his tactics, substitutions, and oddly bewildering demeanor which seems to have rubbed off on the squad. I also feel that the 6 year deal has contributed to his languid start in that he doesn't seem overly concerned with the ramifications of not doing well this year with a remaining 5 years to go.
Well, then De Gea, Rvp, Rooney, Januzaj and Rafael wouldn't look stupid at those clubs either. I mean you've included Willian ffs, who has done little so far.
We have players who would walk into Chelsea too. They're just a bit out of form in comparison and not being managed very well.
We have the talent. Maybe not as good as it can be but title challenging talent and at an extreme worst - top 4 premier league talent.
If that's the case then its time (NOW) to perform. Honestly we lack a good cover/competition for Rafael (Valencia/Smalling/Jones are shit in that position) and the left back role need a complete revamp. Im sick of hearing about potential and theories. We need results on a consistent basis and we need them now.
I have been having a realistic look on our team for years. I have been showing my concerns about the dip in quality we've been witnessing for years with players like Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs and Keane not being adequately replaced. However I was derided because until the trophies kept flowing in, many prefered to bury their head in the sand.
I am not saying that Moyes shouldn't get his fair share of blame and as you say he's a midtable manager who probably bit more then he chewed. However lets not put all the blame on him either. Apart from the forward line (which went missing due to injuries) this side is pretty average.
RVP and Rooney are injured. Januzaj is still young and Rafael hasn't set OT on fire this year. The difference between us and the likes of Chelsea is in terms of overrall talent. We may have a number of good quality players but the majority of them should be at a mid table side. Cant say the same about Chelsea.
I think this is the fundamental flaw because sometimes you need a lift and it wont always come from the players. We've seen teams who just look bereft of confidence and seem past it but after the bedding in period of a new manager (few months), they still put in more effort than they used to It's definitely a grey area but not black and white.
You need to ask yourself to what extent does players' efforts matter in relation to what a manager should be doing. How can we measure if the lads were trying hard or not? Isn't it possible to be putting in effort not quite doing the right things? You can run yourself into the ground chasing shadows. While it may appear to us "at least he tried", does it make us feel any better if it leads to that player making a mistake that could negatively affect the game?
I know it's hypotheticals so you can spit it any way you want but I'm just saying if it's as simple as players not trying hard enough then doesnt really seem that you could hardly ever blame the manager. It's just a matter of if the players are up for it or not. Something which isn't necessarily easy to define even though it seems like it
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