Moyes So Far!

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Sorry.

I'm all for blaming the players for unbelievably gutless displays like that. In fact, some of them should be publicly stoned to death.

But if you're sitting there watching that on the sidelines, and think the most pressing and only concern is the need to replace your left full back, then you've lost the fecking plot as much as anyone on the pitch has.
 
noodlehair said:
Sorry.

I'm all for blaming the players for unbelievably gutless displays like that. In fact, some of them should be publicly stoned to death.

But if you're sitting there watching that on the sidelines, and think the most pressing and only concern is the need to replace your left full back, then you've lost the fecking plot as much as anyone on the pitch has.
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You know that Büttner pulled his muscle, right ?
 
Eyepopper said:
Just a question, is it possible to defend a lead, while showing some bollocks?
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Yes, it is. It depends on the mindset though,if you do it when you acknowledge the other team is on par with you or even superior it doesnt effect the mentality of the players. Like us in barca 08 or even against city.

To do so against a team that is nailed on to be relegated? Coming from a manager who has won nothing of note in his career so far and has been criticized for having a negative attitude. I can see why the players have lost faith in him and why they are not giving their all.

Its like telling a champion boxer to defend against a helpless opponent. Ofcourse he wont be in the right mindset as he knows he is better but his manager doesnt want him to attack for fear of losing.
 
The man instills no confidence in me. I don't think he's a good enough manager to turn it around, our team has digressed enormously under him. I still hope he proves me and many others wrong and I'd still give him to December to do so. If we see no improvements after one and a half seasons with the resources at his disposal he simply has to go.
I'm not blaming him for tonight though, like I said earlier. The ginger feck really can't catch a break.
 
What's with this blame Moyes/blame the players shit? Can't we blame all of them collectively? What the feck are any of them playing at?
 
At least we'll have Rooney, Van Persie, and Mata in the same line-up in a few weeks.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
What's with this blame Moyes/blame the players shit? Can't we blame all of them collectively? What the feck are any of them playing at?
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Of course we can and of course we should.
Kid Cunto said:
It was collectively everyone's fault that de Gea had a howler. Spot on.
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On the other hand, had everyone else performed well enough we wouldn't have been in a situation where a mistake by DDG should have mattered in the slightest.
 
.Rossi said:
A lot of these same players showed bollocks last season and were up for the challenge...See Real Madrid for that.
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Liverpool won the league back in the 80's you know. I couldn't give a feck what they did last year, if you want to sit round basking in the memories of yesteryear feel free.

Fine, you are fond of the new manager etc...Perfectly understandable...But don't think he's not to blame for any of this at all...Managers get praised for victories and trophies so why can't he be blamed for some of this?
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Fond of the new manager? Not overly, I do have a great deal of respect for him but 'fond' is probably pushing it. I think he needs a bit of time. I might be right I might be wrong....

Leaving all that aside tonight was one of the most gutless performances I can ever remember seeing from a Utd team, particularly at OT (I'm of a rare breed able to remember 3 utd managers). I've already said the manager ultimately carries the can, but in my book, the most immediate, and the harshest criticism following tonight should be directed at the players, I think it was a shameful performance from any group of players wearing the Utd shirt.

Lets assume they don't like the new manager, or the tactics, the 100k a week isn't quite enough... fecking diddums, go watch some reruns of what Utd managed to achieve in the 58 FA cup, primarily by showing some bollocks, a bit of pride and determination.

You can have all the skill and experienced management in the world but if you have a group of individuals that lack those you can forget them, get rid. And despite last season, you don't show them once, you show them everytime you pull on the shirt regardless of what else may be going on.

If you don't want to play for the manager play for the shirt and fans. Whatever you play for play with heart, honesty, bravery and pride and if you can't bring yourself to do that, well good luck.

I've been listening to Quintin Fortune and Sammy since the game finished and both of them sounded disgusted at the players performance tonight... which echos what Schmikes said a few weeks ago if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying the manager is blameless but on current showing one or two of our players are fit to lace the boots of a first team Utd player, never mind be one.
 
Kid Cunto said:
It was collectively everyone's fault that de Gea had a howler. Spot on.
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Well that's nonsense - for a start why are we in a situation where we're defending a 1 goal lead against Sunderland at home? This shouldn't be happening - at all. If we had pressed and been unlucky, and it had come after a few minutes of late Sunderland pressure, fair enough... but Sunderland spent the majority of the second half and nearly the whole of extra time having a go at us, and we just fecking let them. It was utterly moronic. Why on earth weren't we pushing for a second in regular time?!? Like you know... any normal sodding team would do??

Anyway after backs to the walls stuff for god knows how long, and DDG drops a clanger... we actually got back into the sodding game, so really - if any of our players bar Fletcher could score from 12 yards we should be going through. There is a whole bunch of people you can blame tonight - DDG is just one peice.
 
I was gonna post in the thread about out squad but it just made me think about Moyes, for a change:
Man for man, was there any Sunderland player on the pitch at all that you would have swapped for one of ours at the same position? The only one I can think of is Buttner; I don't even know who was playing LB for them but Buttner's shite.
If he can't get us to at least look better than that side over 190 minutes there's a problem.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Well that's nonsense - for a start why are we in a situation where we're defending a 1 goal lead against Sunderland at home? This shouldn't be happening - at all. If we had pressed and been unlucky, and it had come after a few minutes of late Sunderland pressure, fair enough... but Sunderland spent the majority of the second half and nearly the whole of extra time having a go at us, and we just fecking let them. It was utterly moronic. Why on earth weren't we pushing for a second in regular time?!? Like you know... any normal sodding team would do??

Anyway after backs to the walls stuff for god knows how long, and DDG drops a clanger... we actually got back into the sodding game, so really - if any of our players bar Fletcher could score from 12 yards we should be going through. There is a whole bunch of people you can blame tonight - DDG is just one peice.
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I'm not Moyes biggest fan but I'd be apprehensive in pointing the finger at him tonight. We had so many chances to put that game to bed yet we didn't, not Moyes fault. de Gea made a balls of a routine save, not Moyes fault. Our players shit themselves from twelve yards, not Moyes fault.
 
Eyepopper said:
Do people never remember us defending 1 goal leads under Fergie? Christ I have memories of watching us in the late stage of games with a slender lead playing so deep De Gea was furthest man forward.
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But it's Fergie, where even if we had 2 minutes left on the clock, we could still pull out big result. United under Moyes so far, has rarely done it. So defending 1 goal lead against Sunderland, at home, in Cup semi-final, does look worst.

It's like saying, Moyes should get away with wasting Fellaini, just because Fergie did it with Veron.
 
Kid Cunto said:
I'm not Moyes biggest fan but I'd be apprehensive in pointing the finger at him tonight. We had so many chances to put that game to bed yet we didn't, not Moyes fault. de Gea made a balls of a routine save, not Moyes fault. Our players shit themselves from twelve yards, not Moyes fault.
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I agree with the second half of that... but our team a) weren't playing well in the second half and b) seemed content with a one goal lead... and Moyes did absolutely nothing about it - so he is not blameless at all.
 
Eyepopper said:
Liverpool won the league back in the 80's you know. I couldn't give a feck what they did last year, if you want to sit round basking in the memories of yesteryear feel free.



Fond of the new manager? Not overly, I do have a great deal of respect for him but 'fond' is probably pushing it. I think he needs a bit of time. I might be right I might be wrong....

Leaving all that aside tonight was one of the most gutless performances I can ever remember seeing from a Utd team, particularly at OT (I'm of a rare breed able to remember 3 utd managers). I've already said the manager ultimately carries the can, but in my book, the most immediate, and the harshest criticism following tonight should be directed at the players, I think it was a shameful performance from any group of players wearing the Utd shirt.

Lets assume they don't like the new manager, or the tactics, the 100k a week isn't quite enough... fecking diddums, go watch some reruns of what Utd managed to achieve in the 58 FA cup, primarily by showing some bollocks, a bit of pride and determination.

You can have all the skill and experienced management in the world but if you have a group of individuals that lack those you can forget them, get rid. And despite last season, you don't show them once, you show them everytime you pull on the shirt regardless of what else may be going on.

If you don't want to play for the manager play for the shirt and fans. Whatever you play for play with heart, honesty, bravery and pride and if you can't bring yourself to do that, well good luck.

I've been listening to Quintin Fortune and Sammy since the game finished and both of them sounded disgusted at the players performance tonight... which echos what Schmikes said a few weeks ago if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying the manager is blameless but on current showing one or two of our players are fit to lace the boots of a first team Utd player, never mind be one.
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I do agree in some sense..Personally I think Welbeck should be shipped out now (See his thread, I was a massive supporter for years) But there has to be something behind the scenes..Genuinely!!...The whole squad can't turn this bad, that quickly and decide to play this way!
 
Eyepopper said:
I've been listening to Quintin Fortune and Sammy since the game finished and both of them sounded disgusted at the players performance tonight... which echos what Schmikes said a few weeks ago if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying the manager is blameless but on current showing one or two of our players are fit to lace the boots of a first team Utd player, never mind be one.
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Tbf, this sounds like something someone would say in the 80s. We've surely moved on a bit since then in the footballing world? Pulling up your socks and all that's great, but if that's all there was to it, Tony Robbins could manage England. feck it, lets just sign Roy of the Rovers, he's all we need, managers don't really do anything but give rousing team talks.

I was encouraged by the starting line up, as it looked like a modern, progressive footballing team, aiming to play a shifting midfield creative game. If we're trying to identify things we can realistically blame on David Moyes, I'd say picking a team with no wingers, then taking our two most creative players, and then playing them as wingers because it's the only thing you know how to do is a fairly good punt.

I said it on Sunday, and I'll say it again. The man is as progressive as a fecking loom.
 
Said it before, you can tell what he is by how he says things. He is quite likely an excellent organizer based on the whole Everton deal, but he is not a born leader. That in itself doesn't mean we can't win under him.

Given time, he may well be able to build a competent unit that mechanically produces results, has good camaraderie and chemistry, plays attractive football and all the works. But he will never inspire - not in the way that the 'greats' do. You have to come to peace with that if you're the Glazers.

I could have sworn I read an article over the summer that claimed he was known in footballing circles for his man-management skills second to none.

But as soon as the first Baines/Fellaini rumbles started up, I knew we were in for trouble: for various long-winded non-footballing reasons, no 'excellent' man-manager would have ever gone for those two. (In fact, he would have actually tried to use back-channels to ensure that such talk did not even come up.) The person who wrote that article and the person who provided the quote both need to be shot - but not before being shown an actual example of an excellent man-manager/motivator.

Then when the Rio-lineup-announcement time affair happened and Moyes pulled that identical-starting-eleven-for-a-dozen-straight-games thing, it became even clearer that he was nothing of the sort and instead had almost zero understanding of basic human psychology.

Every single move he makes on and off the pitch, every thing he says, can be construed as being rooted in fear. You might argue that just because it could be interpreted that way doesn't mean it should be, but that's the very point. No excellent man-manager/born-leader ever does that in the first place.

But again, that doesn't mean we can't win under him. It'll just take about 150m and a near-abandonment of the club's working-class heritage, which is our best 'selling-point' in this age.
 
Kid Cunto said:
I'm not Moyes biggest fan but I'd be apprehensive in pointing the finger at him tonight. We had so many chances to put that game to bed yet we didn't, not Moyes fault. de Gea made a balls of a routine save, not Moyes fault. Our players shit themselves from twelve yards, not Moyes fault.
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Well from a long term picture, all of that could be linked to Moyes. I mean Oles Toe Poke makes a great point in that Moyes seems incapable of inspiring the team after a defeat, the team isn't as bad as it's current form suggests, the lack of confidence in the team is the issue for me and that was shown by mistakes being made and the abject penalty attempts.
 
MJJ said:
Coming from a manager who has won nothing of note in his career so far and has been criticized for having a negative attitude. I can see why the players have lost faith in him and why they are not giving their all.
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Again, diddums. I run a company and regardless of anything else I find anyone on my team not giving their all they don't last long.. there's no justification for it.. its what you're paid your wages for.

Its like telling a champion boxer to defend against a helpless opponent. Ofcourse he wont be in the right mindset as he knows he is better but his manager doesnt want him to attack for fear of losing.
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I'm assuming you've never done any boxing then or heard of the ropeadope, pretty basic tactic against a less skilled, or stronger opponent, where you sit back and defend, keep it tight, look for your opportunity as he tires and lay him out... only works if you have the bollocks to actually throw a punch mind., if you just constantly sit back and hope that he either stops hitting you or passes out you'll probably end up getting caught with a haymaker out of nothing but desperation.
 
Mockney said:
Tbf, this sounds like something someone would say in the 80s. We've surely moved on a bit since then in the footballing world? Pulling up your socks and all that's great, but if that's all there was to it, Tony Robbins could manage England.

I was encouraged by the starting line up, as it looked like a modern, progressive footballing team, aiming to play a shifting midfield creative game. If we're trying to identify things we can realistically blame on David Moyes, I'd say picking a team with no wingers, then taking our two most creative players, and then played them as wingers, because it's the only thing you know how to do is a fairly good punt.

I said it on Sunday, and I'll say it again. The man is a progressive as fecking loom.
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The only mistake he made today was taking Kagawa off. If he doesn't do that, then it becomes less clear how less progressive he is/isn't.
 
Just to illustrate it...our form over last 6 games in all competitions:

LLLWLL
 
Mockney said:
Tbf, this sounds like something someone would say in the 80s.

I was encouraged by the starting line up, as it looked like a modern, progressive footballing team, aiming to play a shifting midfield creative game. If we're trying to identify things we can realistically blame on David Moyes, I'd say picking a team with no wingers, then taking our two most creative players, and then played them as wingers, because it's the only thing you know how to do is a fairly good punt.
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Agree with this. Like you say, our line up was great. It was on paper, at least. Yet, the way in which they were set up, which all stems from work done on the training field, was a massive, massive worry. It just isn't progressive, and I still can't understand what he is trying to achieve in terms of our style.

Take Sunderland tonight, it seemed quite obvious to me how Poyet had them set up. A lot of pressing, a solid midfield three and an emphasis on playing out from the back. They were actually quite shite in the final third as the quality just isn't there, but like with Poyet, Martinez, Pochettino and Rodgers last season, we could all see from early on what they are trying to do with the team.
 
hungrywing said:
The only mistake he made today was taking Kagawa off. If he doesn't do that, then it becomes less clear how less progressive he is/isn't.
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That idea would have more credit if this kind of line up wasn't a desperate stab in the dark after months of playing Young & Valencia in an antiquated 4-4-2 system and basing our entire game play around crossing into short strikers.
 
Mockney said:
Tbf, this sounds like something someone would say in the 80s. We've surely moved on a bit since then in the footballing world? Pulling up your socks and all that's great, but if that's all there was to it, Tony Robbins could manage England. feck it, lets just sign Roy of the Rovers, he's all we need, managers don't really do anything but give rousing team talks.
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Where did I say any of that is the full answer or all a manager needs to do Mockney?

I'm actually saying the exact opposite. They're pretty basic, I was told those sorts of things when I was about 12 (yep back in the 80's), I wouldn't expect any modern manager to have to reiterate or instill them. You'd hope that by the time a player arrives at the dressing room of the first team at OT they realise those things and take personal responsibility for them.

I don't see it from a number of our players and if they lack or lose those basic's then there's not much else you can do with them.
 
hungrywing said:
Said it before, you can tell what he is by how he says things. He is quite likely an excellent organizer based on the whole Everton deal, but he is not a born leader. That in itself doesn't mean we can't win under him.

Given time, he may well be able to build a competent unit that mechanically produces results, has good camaraderie and chemistry, plays attractive football and all the works. But he will never inspire - not in the way that the 'greats' do. You have to come to peace with that if you're the Glazers.

I could have sworn I read an article over the summer that claimed he was known in footballing circles for his man-management skills second to none.

But as soon as the first Baines/Fellaini rumbles started up, I knew we were in for trouble: for various long-winded non-footballing reasons, no 'excellent' man-manager would have ever gone for those two. (In fact, he would have actually tried to use back-channels to ensure that such talk did not even come up.) The person who wrote that article and the person who provided the quote both need to be shot - but not before being shown an actual example of an excellent man-manager/motivator.

Then when the Rio-lineup-announcement time affair happened and Moyes pulled that identical-starting-eleven-for-a-dozen-straight-games thing, it became even clearer that he was nothing of the sort and instead had almost zero understanding of basic human psychology.

Every single move he makes on and off the pitch, every thing he says, can be construed as being rooted in fear. You might argue that just because it could be interpreted that way doesn't mean it should be, but that's the very point. No excellent man-manager/born-leader ever does that in the first place.

But again, that doesn't mean we can't win under him. It'll just take about 150m and a near-abandonment of the club's working-class heritage, which is our best 'selling-point' in this age.
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Agreed completely. As said before, Moyes is a good manager. But with United won't compete in throwing money against sugar daddy's clubs ('thanks' to Glazer), we need a great manager. Someone who can win titles against the odds. Dare to say, someone like Benitez with Valencia, Mourinho with Porto, and of course, Klopp with Dortmund.
 
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Mockney said:
That idea would have more credit if this kind of line up wasn't a desperate stab in the dark after months of playing Young & Valencia in an antiquated 4-4-2 system and basing our entire game play around crossing into short strikers.
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I agree. Although as of now I think we have to leave open the possibility that it was a stab in the dark. We don't know that for sure. It could also be the first attempt at playing the football he's always wanted to play but couldn't because of Young/Valencia's limitations (I doubt it, but it is possible)

So it's still too early to see if he's turned a corner and committed to risking more attack-minded football that he couldn't play because of the players SAF left him.

It's the only reason that although I have serious doubts about him, I'd argue that he needs to be given more time to change SAF's system. All these players have it ingrained into them.
 
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Eyepopper said:
Again, diddums. I run a company and regardless of anything else I find anyone on my team not giving their all they don't last long.. there's no justification for it.. its what you're paid your wages for.

I'm assuming you've never done any boxing then or heard of the ropeadope, pretty basic tactic against a less skilled, or stronger opponent, where you sit back and defend, keep it tight, look for your opportunity as he tires and lay him out... only works if you have the bollocks to actually throw a punch mind., if you just constantly sit back and hope that he either stops hitting you or passes out you'll probably end up getting caught with a haymaker out of nothing but desperation.
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I dont have your experience but have worked in a close team where a beloved manager is replaced by one that has poor people skills. I found out that most people stop giving it there all, and the results were bad as everyone was motivated only be self gain. But I accept that you probably have more experience than me in this field so wont argue with you over this.

What I will say is that for most people a good wage isnt enough, to motivate them you need other incentives. Whether through fear or inspiring them to do an acceptable job as they take it the wage and the job for granted.

As for the latter para..if you see my earlier response to you about defending a lead you will see that I have already addressed this. If the opponent is stronger or on par with you then yes its acceptable and doesnt affect the mentality that much but against a clearly inferior opponent in all areas it almost never works. I dont know if you watch cricket but if so can give you a very relevant and recent example of damage caused by having a negative mindset.

Also, am curious but what would you regard as the main responsibility of a manager?
 
I actually don't think there's been a lack of effort from the players. To me it just looks like they're completely devoid of confidence and are lacking a fundamental structure to the team.
 
MJJ said:
What I will say is that for most people a good wage isnt enough, to motivate them you need other incentives.
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Totally agree with you but if the chance to get to a final, playing at home for Utd in front of 80,000 fans isn't enough to provide a bit of motivation then again, I'm not sure where we go......

I'm off to bed, so don't think I'm ignoring the rest of the post, my eyes are literally closing and I somehow have to find the motivation to drag myself out of bed in 5 hours and do a days work, and I don't even have a manager.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I actually don't think there's been a lack of effort from the players. To me it just looks like they're completely devoid of confidence and are lacking a fundamental structure to the team.
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Schmikes, Fortune, and McIlroy would disagree with you. As would a hole host of first team players whove come out over the past couple of weeks to say the players haven't stepped up.
 
Eyepopper said:
Totally agree with you but if the chance to get to a final, playing at home for Utd in front of 80,000 fans isn't enough to provide a bit of motivation then again, I'm not sure where we go......

I'm off to bed, so don't think I'm ignoring the rest of the post, my eyes are literally closing and I somehow have to find the motivation to drag myself out of bed in 5 hours and do a days work, and I don't even have a manager.
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:lol: Goodnight.
 
Eyepopper said:
Schmikes, Fortune, and McIlroy would disagree with you. As would a hole host of first team players whove come out over the past couple of weeks to say the players haven't stepped up.
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They haven't performed anywhere near their ability, but I don't think that's because they're not trying to play well. Some lack the ability, some are in poor form and pretty much all are (understandably) short on confidence.
 
.Rossi said:
Personally I think Welbeck should be shipped out now (See his thread, I was a massive supporter for years)
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Yeah, cos his performances this season have been rubbish compared to previous seasons. :rolleyes:
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I actually don't think there's been a lack of effort from the players. To me it just looks like they're completely devoid of confidence and are lacking a fundamental structure to the team.
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That's how I see it as well. I also think you are severely discrediting Moyes if you claim he would put up with players not trying out there.

It's easy to claim players aren't trying but reality there is nothing to seriously prove it other than them not playing well.
 
Eyepopper said:
Where did I say any of that is the full answer or all a manager needs to do Mockney?

I'm actually saying the exact opposite. They're pretty basic, I was told those sorts of things when I was about 12 (yep back in the 80's), I wouldn't expect any modern manager to have to reiterate or instill them. You'd hope that by the time a player arrives at the dressing room of the first team at OT they realise those things and take personal responsibility for them.

I don't see it from a number of our players and if they lack or lose those basic's then there's not much else you can do with them.
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Well your argument has been pretty consistent that Moyes is one of the least blameable people for our terrible form. I'd say if you think all the players need is a kick up the arse and some good old fashion work ethic then you're looking for a manager/player/club form an 80s comic and not realistic, modern Premier League and Champions League contending ones.

If you genuinely think Moyes is being hard done by the players, then feck management altogether. We don't need it. We just need Tony Robbins and an 8 ball of cocaine.
 
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