Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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The point is that a drop was surely to be expected in Fergie's absence. How dramatic a drop is acceptable is debatable - people will have their own ideas about that. But it seems to me that the majority of Moyes' most vocal critics on here (and on here people are generally much more reasonable than the fruitcakes who dominate elsewhere) agree that a top four finish is acceptable in what was bound to be a difficult season. We aren't miles off that target and had RVP been available all season I'm positive he would've bailed us out on several occasions.
Then we might add all the other injuries. And I'll be the first to admit that using injuries as an excuse for dropping points is not valid under normal circumstances. But these aren't normal circumstances. Moyes' was going to run into problems in his first season - it was inevitable. These injuries have added to his woes - perhaps significantly so. That's all I'm saying.
Go where exactly?
Disneyland? Middle Earth? The cinema?
You think they'd elaborate, twitter is such a scourge.
i hope it's disneyland, mum says it's magical.
Not as magical as your selfies.
I'd rather we made Giggs manager.
Sure there would've been Liverpool fans who thought when Beardsley, McMahon and Houghton were given the boot by Souness in the early 90s without adequate replacements coming in.
20 years later I'm sure they realise how wrong they were.
Its mad to think we'll improve by culling our title winning squad, losing all that run-in experience, and a bunch of stars who when motivated can still do it.
We would have to spend like Man City or Real Madrid to cope with the loss of the so many big players.
What we should be worried about is how our big players will react if we don't get into Europe. Nevermind Rooney and Van Persie how long can we keep a world class goalie like De Gea if seventh place is our new level...?
A bit late in here this morning - have we covered the whole "project" comment?
There is no doubt it played a part. Moyes said himself. And Gill going was a bad decision. Mourinho began on the 3rd June. Pellegrini 30th May. Plus they have sugar daddy owners to buy anyone they want and in City's case, ex Barcelona men probably picking the players to sign.
I agree Moyes isn't getting the best out of the players like Ferguson did or Mourinho probably would have done. But there's not a manager we could have brought in who would have kept us at the level Fergie did. Pep had already gone to Bayern, Klopp is tied to Dortmund and Jose was over looked because it was felt, by the likes of Ferguson and Charlton, that he wasn't Utd material. Men who know the club a hell of a lot more than we do.
Its looking like a couple of years of Moyes at least. So I've just accepted that and try to support him as much as possible. Its fecking hard sometimes, the way we've played this year, but Moyes will keep working hard and lets get the two star players back, the ones who put the ball in the back of the net.
(And the injuries to so many key players, for a man who is not Ferguson, in his first year at the biggest club around, is a hell of a problem to deal with.
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I think we can still get 4th. And then the summer is massive.
Absolutely. There's much revisionism going on to try and justify why we're playing as badly as we are. Much of it seems to involve blaming Sir Alex Ferguson and forgetting that he re-built United from the bottom up and made us the most feared team in England. The idea that Van Persie was some sort of vanity purchase ignores the fact that had City got him they probably would've won the title.
Moyes has made too many mistakes and our current issues are his fault. Ferguson got a lot more out of our players than Moyes has shown he is capable of. Arguably, nobody was ever going to get that much out of them but a better man manager e.g. Mourinho would probably have gee'd up our lads enough to see them top four at this stage of the season. Some of the points we've dropped have been ridiculous. Do we have worse squads than West Brom and Newcastle? Is that what people are trying to tell me? We simply shouldn't be losing those games.
Moyes said before our first Champions League game that we needed 5-6 world class players, but who is he to judge the standard of our squad if he thought £27.5 million on Fellaini would improve us? I'm sure the players would have thought similarly (at least those who didn't have their confidence undercut by words that seemed to show no grasp of human psychology). Especially the senior players who have been there and done it and the likes of Nani and especially Hernandez (on the pitch with 3 minutes to gonever forget that!) who have been frozen out for no good reason that I can see.
I struggle to see what Moyes' grand plan is. Defensively we are all over the place with players seemingly having no clue of how to play offside or where they should be in the second phase. Offensively we are about as sharp as a blunt object. There has not been a Laudrup, Martinez, Brenton style shift towards a different style that we as fans can buy into. Its just hoof, get it wide, get crosses in. Looking at the players they are uninspired by what they are being asked to do too.
Yesterday Red Nev was on about how a big name signing can galvanize a team as Arsenal had been boosted by Ozil, yet he ignored a big name manager would have done that too. If you have won practically everything and played under some of the best managers in the world both for club and country, are you going to be inspired by someone who was an average player and who is an average manager? Especially when that person doesn't seem to have any cutting edge ideas about training or tactics?
If we allow it, Moyes will do to us what Souness did to Liverpool in then early 90s. When I watch us now I almost feel like I'm seeing that side with Januzaj playing the role of Steve McManaman, sure B20 sees the parallel. Man Utd with David Moyes as manager will have to face up to a new reality that fourth place is a trophy, good football is no longer guaranteed, and City and Liverpool will be competing for the title and regularly beating us with dismissive ease for years to come.
This is the critical point. Forget the transfer window debacle, comments in media etc. The real problem is the performances, and seemingly, defence who have forgotten how to defend. What is Moyes doing in training? He is the one taking the training so you have to presume he is working on things that are not translating into the on-pitch performances. Why? The debate around should he get time rests on the answer to this question. If its the players he has are not up to the standard he needs to play the way he wants then yes, he should get more time. If its the players have already decided he isnt up to it and arent prepared to work for him, then he is in trouble - rightly or wrongly.
Reminds me of that "firm" of Chinese Liverpool supporters who stood displaying some sort of tasteless (and helplessly worded) Munich banner. One of their suggestions was that Fergie should "go to the hell", I recall. Perhaps that's what this daisy has in mind for Moyes.
We're gonna have to very much agree to disagree on that then.
No way in hells earth is Souness a better manager than Moyes.
For me I will only start fully judging Moyes when RVP and Rooney are back both fit and playing together.
Look at the stats, when they have both started we have not lost a game. 5 wins and 2 draws.
These 2 basically dragged our team to the title last year, and without them and a fit and proper Carrick for a big portion, we have quite notably slipped up.
Soon they will both be back and we should start to see the attacking play recover.
Only then with all his full tools available can we really measure Moyes to be a failure or not.
Look at the stats, when they have both started we have not lost a game. 5 wins and 2 draws.
These 2 basically dragged our team to the title last year, and without them and a fit and proper Carrick for a big portion, we have quite notably slipped up.
Soon they will both be back and we should start to see the attacking play recover.
Only then with all his full tools available can we really measure Moyes to be a failure or not.
Hmmm. Tricky one. Its just more ammunition for those who are unsure about him. Big Ron was right - you dont get a "transition" period at Utd. He has to demonstrate signs of improvement (which i think we all agree he has failed to do so far). Im sure Rodgers got panned for talking about a project even though Liverpool were in a worse position than what Moyes inherited at Utd.
On the other hand - its a comment that can be taken either way and doesnt really mean anything. I was curious about the opinion people had of it and interested to see how it had been reported.
When all is said and done,
This.
And this. Itll get worse before it gets better as well because Im sure Rooney is off. Unbelievable pressure for Moyes to perform in the transfer window this summer in what will be a difficult summer to get business done. But he absolutely has to step up, his Manchester United career depends on it.
This.
And this. Itll get worse before it gets better as well because Im sure Rooney is off. Unbelievable pressure for Moyes to perform in the transfer window this summer in what will be a difficult summer to get business done. But he absolutely has to step up, his Manchester United career depends on it.
Stop making excuses. Those two were appointed then. Their contracts started from the 1st July just like Moyes. Moyes was appointed earlier than both.
Considering where we are, Moyes still has plenty of support. The Caf gets a lot of criticism but I imagine most would keep him even though defensively we are all over the place and unimaginative going forward.
Yep. Most fans would be at the gates with misspelled banners by now.
Moyes has dragged United down to his level. All that talk about him being let down by the financial situation at Everton is false. He's just not a winner. Avram Grant managed to take Chelsea to a 2nd place finish and a CL final. Di Matteo won a cup double. Dalglish for all the dinosaur talk still managed to get Liverpool to 2 cup finals and got them playing some decent football. Even Pardew who has smaller squad and no money has Newcastle punching above their weight. Imo he is in the same category of as Hughes, Mcleish, Allardyce, Holloway etc. Managers who stink of mediocrity but get a pass for simply being British. AVB got fired twice for far less. He has shown no signs of being up to the job. I don't understand how he continues to get the benefit of the doubt. The problems he inherited from Fergie or the injuries don't jusifty 7 losses with just over half the season gone.
Match going fans really have been fantastic. Moyes has had plenty of support as a collective.
I suspect if you speak to most of these fans privately though they would confess they have reservations.
He's part of the coaching staff as well, so he might get sacked.
No he won't.
Not all the coaching staff gets sacked, when a manager leaves. Brian Kidd has stayed at City.
Based on what does Giggs deserve to be the next manager? Has he done anything to deserve it?
People go on about Moyes never having done anything to deserve the top job here and here are you suggesting we make someone who doesnt even have the experience of managing an academy side the manager of Manchester United.
It was an idiot comment IMO, but in response to your reply to him, at least in regards to Giggs, people would grant him more time (I'd assume) as we have a soft spot for him I suppose, kind of like OGS or Neville, again not that I think its a good idea in any way
Correct. My problem with appointing Moyes was his lack of trophy winning credentials - why we would potentially appoint Giggs as manager is just purely based on romanticism (same goes for Ole).
If Giggs takes over and remains on the playing staff we get the chance to make "Sack Giggs, sell Giggs" banners. It's worth considering.
Purely speculative, however, if Moyes were to go...my suspicion would be Round and Lumsden would go. Giggs, Nev, and Woods (for a period of time) would stay
Perhaps your opinion will change when Gus Poyet takes a dump on Moyes on Wednesday.
14 goals in 11 home league games? Even Pogue Mahone at the helms of affairs at Old Trafford wouldn't churn out such a pathetic performance.
Yes, people would but as you correctly said, it wont be a good idea. Romanticism is good but people need to do something to deserve the job. Moyes didnt but was lucky that SAF picked his successor. The rules should be no different for someone like Giggs. If he wants to manage us, he has to earn it by doing well elsewhere first.
A club like ours cannot afford too many feckups. People dont realize how far back it can set us if we have 2-3 sackings in the next 4-5 years combined with giving each of them money to spend.
Its why I went on and on about getting Mourinho after SAF. Its huge shoes to fill and even if he fecked off after few years, he'd have given us the stability short term while making it easier for the next man. But naah, everyone wants a 20 year reign everytime.
Sound about right, and I don't think he was planning on buying another forward (after buying Kagawa) anyway but as SAF said, a "special talent" became available and he jumped at the opportunty.
I'd agree that other areas required investment much more though.
Yesterday's game has left me weirdly optimistic considering that overall it was a pretty damaging defeat, but I thought there were more positives than negatives. I genuinely thought we played really well and it was nice to see that Moyes went with the positive intention to let us impose ourselves rather than just setting out to contain and stifle Chelsea. We didn't set out just to not get beat, we went there to play our own game and to try to win, and although in this occasion we fell short on this occasion, I think the signs are positive and for me it shows that Moyes is getting what Manchester United is about.
I thought our passing through midfield was quick and incisive which shows big improvement from just a few weeks ago when our passing was painfully slow and unambitious. It's a small positive because we didn't make the most of that early dominance but it's progress. It unsettled Chelsea and had them on the back foot from the off. The didn't know how to deal with not only our intensity but also our passing in the early exchanges of the first half. For me it showed that tactically we had it spot on we just didn't have the players on the pitch that we needed to be able to convert the chances we created and ultimately get the result. It also shows that Moyes can be brave and gutsy, which he will need to be as the manager of Manchester United.
I'm not one of those who will blindly defend Moyes regardless of the performances or results (he wasn't my choice initially) but you seriously can't think Moyes could do much to prevent those defensive mistakes we made which lead to the Chelsea goals.
It was maybe a game too soon for Jones. He looked off the pace and not quite fit/match fit. Which is a shame because as it's a bigger profile game it will taint people's opinions of him this season, and before the injury he was excellent.
I also sympathise with Moyes over our ridiculous injuries to key players this season. Losing Rooney, RvP, Rafael, Carrick and Jones for prolonged periods this season is bound to have an effect. I can't see how anyone wouldn't think that the game yesterday may have panned out differently had Rooney and RvP been fit. We're bound to improve when they return if we continue to play with the same character and intensity as yesterday.
A lot of our problems this season come from the fact that we didn't strengthen the squad at all in the summer. We sat still whereas our rivals all strengthened. That was to our detriment and last summer has to be seen as a bug missed opportunity. I like that Moyes seems to be of the view that there's no point getting ok players in this window, he rather wait for the top players that we really need and try to get them in the summer. I just hope we are fast out the blocks in the summer and get the players we really need to elevate us. We are not that far off and we don't need a load of new players, but a bit of quality in the right areas will take us to where we need to be imo.
I thought our passing through midfield was quick and incisive which shows big improvement from just a few weeks ago when our passing was painfully slow and unambitious. It's a small positive because we didn't make the most of that early dominance but it's progress. It unsettled Chelsea and had them on the back foot from the off. The didn't know how to deal with not only our intensity but also our passing in the early exchanges of the first half. For me it showed that tactically we had it spot on we just didn't have the players on the pitch that we needed to be able to convert the chances we created and ultimately get the result. It also shows that Moyes can be brave and gutsy, which he will need to be as the manager of Manchester United.
I'm not one of those who will blindly defend Moyes regardless of the performances or results (he wasn't my choice initially) but you seriously can't think Moyes could do much to prevent those defensive mistakes we made which lead to the Chelsea goals.
It was maybe a game too soon for Jones. He looked off the pace and not quite fit/match fit. Which is a shame because as it's a bigger profile game it will taint people's opinions of him this season, and before the injury he was excellent.
I also sympathise with Moyes over our ridiculous injuries to key players this season. Losing Rooney, RvP, Rafael, Carrick and Jones for prolonged periods this season is bound to have an effect. I can't see how anyone wouldn't think that the game yesterday may have panned out differently had Rooney and RvP been fit. We're bound to improve when they return if we continue to play with the same character and intensity as yesterday.
A lot of our problems this season come from the fact that we didn't strengthen the squad at all in the summer. We sat still whereas our rivals all strengthened. That was to our detriment and last summer has to be seen as a bug missed opportunity. I like that Moyes seems to be of the view that there's no point getting ok players in this window, he rather wait for the top players that we really need and try to get them in the summer. I just hope we are fast out the blocks in the summer and get the players we really need to elevate us. We are not that far off and we don't need a load of new players, but a bit of quality in the right areas will take us to where we need to be imo.
Without a doubt. But even with doubts, its more important to show a brave face and get behind him and support him publicly.
Even the ones on here, myself included, who stick up for him, have big doubts. There's no crystal ball that says he's going to be a success. But he's our manager for a while by the looks of things, so we back him, almost in blind faith, and hope he improves. There's just no point in moaning and saying he should be sacked now, because it's just not going to happen.
It's looking like 4th spot at best now. So if we can get Rooney and van Persie back and playing for the rest of the season, there's no reason we can't get into the top 4. Then we see what happens in the summer. Moyes in fairness, has at least identified what we all know we need, a midfielder and a left back. If he bags them then we go into next season with a much better chance considering Moyes himself will have a year under his belt. Woodward too.
If on the other hand, we miss out on top 4, Rooney and RvP leave, and we have another disasterous summer. Well...
I don't see why it HAS to be two years of Moyes. No job comes with silly guarantees such as that and for good reason.
I haven't got an issue with Chris Woods, the goalies seem to be happy with him. We aren't losing because of our goalies. I would keep him, if he wanted to stay.
Aren't they saying that it looks like it will be two years of Moyes no matter what? That's not the same as 'should or has to be two years'.
Had we lost to Swansea and then Chelsea he would have been sacked, probably. I mean that's five defeats in a row. Four out of five isn't much prettier but at least we had some good vibe for a week after that good performance against Swansea.
Youre spot on - as soon as there are public showings of dissatisfaction, then its over.
I said a month ago that if he didnt get money in January, the Glazers may already have decided to let him go. None of us really accept that there are no players that would improve us available - Matic being prime example. There are players - and plenty of them.
Purely speculation, but i dont think the owners will be as patient as people believe. Talk about the influence of SAF and Charlton all we like, but the basics are:
1. The business plan was based on a minimum 3rd place finish.
2. Share price has been impacted.
3. CL qualification is/was a necessity
I think we all like the idea that we do things differently at our club i.e. the right way. But our owners are in it for cash - pure and simple. Moyes is affecting that (whether he is to blame or not, they will blame him) and i can see them acting.
I started off in the mindset that it had to be 2 years but it has crept down due to the extremity of the situation. I anticipated a bumpy transition but this has surpassed my expectations. I would say if things arent markedly better next Christmas is going to be D Day. And that assumes he manages to bring some big names in who we have to give time to bed in, if we start next season without some quite significant reinforcements then Ill lose patience before then.
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