Moyes So Far!

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Ish84045 said:
feck me, I'm sure this stat has been posted before (a friend sent it to me, so I have no clue re the accuracy):


Sympathy may be rare for David Moyes, but let's end with some. One has to point out the manager's misfortune over the loss of both Robin Van Persie and Wayne Rooney. Last season, of the 24 matches that the pair both started in all competitions, United won 19, drew four and lost just one.

This season, Moyes has been without one or both of his striking options for 14 league games out of a possible 22. United have taken just 17 points from these 14 games. Conversely, in the 8 league games in which the two have featured, United have won six and drawn two. That's a difference of 1.3 points per games, or 59 points over a season. Sink or swim, effectively.
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Crazy.

I'm starting to agree with something Brwned said before (which I'm not sure was serious or not), I don't think SAF should've bought RvP, he should've sorted out our problem areas instead of buying a quick-fix he knew would get him another trophy before retiring.

People will largely disagree and laugh at me for that, but I don't care!
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I said in another thread that it needed a bit of tinkering in the summer and that wasn't done. I think it is coming home to roost now. The players, if they are downing tools want their arses kicking. If they don't like the manager, OK, but they are short changing the fans who will stick with them through thick and thin.
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I would say that what goes on in training, what the manager says to the players, and the plans he tries to execute during a match can lead to a very demoralised and under-confident squad. I would also say that when you're being instructed to constantly get the ball out wide and mindlessly cross it to strikers who aren't good cross-converters (only Hernandez has the natural instinct to cut across a defender at the near post, only Hernandez is going to bust a bollock to try and get his head on an aerial ball and yet Moyes doesn't play him) you're going to lose faith after the umpteenth repetition of something that is clearly not working.

Heads are going to drop more so than players simply downing tools. Whatever we want to call them, they're humans with feelings and confidence issues that a good manager is constantly on top, or in control of, which is part of being a good manager and what Fergie was the undisputed best in the world at. Psychologically, that mental arm around the shoulder has gone now and I wouldn't be surprised if a few of our players are in proper shock and don't have the coping mechanisms to sort themselves out in such short order, which is where the manager again is supposed to come in and rattle the cages by whatever manipulation is neccessary to get what he needs out of them. Moyes is showing he cannot do that.

There's a whole lot wrong with us at the moment, but our bottom level should be no less than 4th.
 
Cina said:
Crazy.

I'm starting to agree with something Brwned said before (which I'm not sure was serious or not), I don't think SAF should've bought RvP, he should've sorted out our problem areas instead of buying a quick-fix he knew would get him another trophy before retiring.

People will largely disagree and laugh at me for that, but I don't care!
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I was saying that at the time and Ive never stopped thinking it for a single second. As much as I love RVP, as much as it feels absurd to identify him as, effectively, part of the problem, I always thought it was the wrong move. People said his goals fired us to the league but I think Rooney would have done the same if he had been playing in RVP's position. Kagawa would have settled into the position he was originally bought to play and if we had spent a bit of money on the midfield instead we would have better balance.
 
Ish84045 said:
feck me, I'm sure this stat has been posted before (a friend sent it to me, so I have no clue re the accuracy):


Sympathy may be rare for David Moyes, but let's end with some. One has to point out the manager's misfortune over the loss of both Robin Van Persie and Wayne Rooney. Last season, of the 24 matches that the pair both started in all competitions, United won 19, drew four and lost just one.

This season, Moyes has been without one or both of his striking options for 14 league games out of a possible 22. United have taken just 17 points from these 14 games. Conversely, in the 8 league games in which the two have featured, United have won six and drawn two. That's a difference of 1.3 points per games, or 59 points over a season. Sink or swim, effectively.
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And of the 19 matches in which only one of them featured last season we won 14, drew two and lost three, in all competitions. Clearly, we coped a lot better with missing either or both of them last season.

Also, the stat is all wrong anyway. It says that in the 8 league games in which the two have featured United have remained unbeaten this season. Not true: both played against West Brom.
 
Adebesi said:
I was saying that at the time and Ive never stopped thinking it for a single second. As much as I love RVP, as much as it feels absurd to identify him as, effectively, part of the problem, I always thought it was the wrong move. People said his goals fired us to the league but I think Rooney would have done the same if he had been playing in RVP's position. Kagawa would have settled into the position he was originally bought to play and if we had spent a bit of money on the midfield instead we would have better balance.
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Yeah I said it too, and then the thought quickly diminished after a month when he was winning us game after game, but reflecting back, it wasn't the right decision, for me. SAF knew he was 29, injury prone and would cause Rooney to get upset and Kagawa/Welbeck to get less games in their best positions, but he bought him anyway. Maybe you could argue he deserved the right to buy him to get one more title, but I said before we bought him we'd win the title anyway, I don't think RvP had so much of an impact that we won the title by nine points because of him. I think we'd have won it anyway.

We're fecked without him this season, really. I don't think we're actually playing any worse this year, we just don't have him to bail us out, or Rooney.
 
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Cina said:
Crazy.

I'm starting to agree with something Brwned said before (which I'm not sure was serious or not), I don't think SAF should've bought RvP, he should've sorted out our problem areas instead of buying a quick-fix he knew would get him another trophy before retiring.

People will largely disagree and laugh at me for that, but I don't care!
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I've said that before (I think it was in the newbies) part of me thinks he knew he was going to retire long before he made it public, I also believe he would have retired in 2012 had City not beaten us by that last second goal.
Rightly so a Fergie wanted to out as a winner and he knew RVP would get him the goals he needed.
 
Cina said:
Yeah I said it too, and then the thought quickly diminished after a month when he was winning us game after game, but reflecting back, it wasn't the right decision, for me. SAF knew he was 29, injury prone and would cause Rooney to get upset and Kagawa/Welbeck to get less games in their best positions, but he bought him anyway. Maybe you could argue he deserved the right to buy him to get one more title, but I said before we bought him we'd win the title anyway, I don't think RvP had so much of an impact that we won the title by nine points because of him. I think we'd have won it anyway.

We're fecked without him this season, really. I don't think we're actually playing any worse this year, we just don't have him to bail us out, or Rooney.
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But we do have Rooney available more often than last season. He made 31 starts last season, he's at 22 this season and we still have at least 19 games to go.

At one point we won seven league games in a row last season with RvP scoring only once. And he was playing poorly during that period. I can't see us winning seven consecutive league games without Van Persie firing on all cylinders this season.

I didn't want RvP at the time either because it did come across as a luxury buy - I think, however, that SAF wouldn't have bought a midfielder anyway. Had RvP not become available, he'd have ended that transfer window with Kagawa as his only signing.
 
If RVP hadn't joined us he would have joined City and they would have most likely won the title with him in the team last season.
 
Siorac said:
But we do have Rooney available more often than last season. He made 31 starts last season, he's at 22 this season and we still have at least 19 games to go.

At one point we won seven league games in a row last season with RvP scoring only once. And he was playing poorly during that period. I can't see us winning seven consecutive league games without Van Persie firing on all cylinders this season.

I didn't want RvP at the time either because it did come across as a luxury buy - I think, however, that SAF wouldn't have bought a midfielder anyway. Had RvP not become available, he'd have ended that transfer window with Kagawa as his only signing.
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I think we'd have won it even without a midfielder though, but I'm just saying that he could have used that £24m to go get one!
 
Siorac said:
I didn't want RvP at the time either because it did come across as a luxury buy - I think, however, that SAF wouldn't have bought a midfielder anyway. Had RvP not become available, he'd have ended that transfer window with Kagawa as his only signing.
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Hard to deny this, any "what if" scenario that presumes SAF bought a midfielder is a fanciful one indeed.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
So a new manager is going to magic our midfield into something fabulous, make it that Valencia can actually cross a ball. That he is some sort of faith healer who can make Rio fit and 5 years younger, make Rooney, RVP and Nani fit. That Vidic didn't actually get sent off yesterday. He will still have to deal with the same players as he would have no time to replace them.
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In which case what is the mangers job? By this logic you don't need a manager.

Surely the manager's job is to get the best out of the players he has at his disposal, pick the right team to get the best possible result, to motivate the team? That's clearly not happening. It should be the easiest job to motivate a squad of winners to carry on winning, but we've gone substantially backwards. A drop off in performance was expected, to not this extent.
 
Colin129 said:
In which case what is the mangers job? By this logic you don't need a manager.

Surely the manager's job is to get the best out of the players he has at his disposal, pick the right team to get the best possible result, to motivate the team? That's clearly not happening. It should be the easiest job to motivate a squad of winners to carry on winning, but we've gone substantially backwards. A drop off in performance was expected, to not this extent.
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You're right about the manager but the bolded part is simply not true. Motivating people who already won plenty of stuff is difficult unless they're absolutely model pros or obsessed lunatics like Ronaldo. It's a delicate thing, this is one of the factors which separate good and great managers from the rest.
 
Siorac said:
You're right about the manager but the bolded part is simply not true. Motivating people who already won plenty of stuff is difficult unless they're absolutely model pros or obsessed lunatics like Ronaldo. It's a delicate thing, this is one of the factors which separate good and great managers from the rest.
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It should be relatively easy, though, surely.
 
Siorac said:
You're right about the manager but the bolded part is simply not true. Motivating people who already won plenty of stuff is difficult unless they're absolutely model pros or obsessed lunatics like Ronaldo. It's a delicate thing, this is one of the factors which separate good and great managers from the rest.
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Correct - this is a famously obvious point, and one whihc has tripped up countless sports-people before.
 
No doubt buying RVP was the right thing to do. We should have spent another 70-80mil on Midfield. If we didnt have the money we should just have borrowed it. Whats another 70-80mil on our debt anyway?
 
The worry is that he appears to not be able to work with what he has. If he's going to be a manager that constantly needs to buy to sustain (once it improves) performance then that could be a worry as we have, are and never will be a club like that. He inherited a team that wasn't our greatest but still champions and one that had every right to challenge for the title this season, if not win it.

If he is unable to work with what he's got if what he has are the same team that strolled to the league championship last year, then it doesn't bode well for how we'll do every year without bank-busting transfer spends each season.
 
fecking hell. When we joked about Moyes making us into Everton, I didn't mean it in quite as literal a sense as we're seeing now. When do we change our badge and kit colours ffs.
 
Plugsy said:
The worry is that he appears to not be able to work with what he has. If he's going to be a manager that constantly needs to buy to sustain (once it improves) performance then that could be a worry as we have, are and never will be a club like that. He inherited a team that wasn't our greatest but still champions and one that had every right to challenge for the title this season, if not win it.

If he is unable to work with what he's got if what he has are the same team that strolled to the league championship last year, then it doesn't bode well for how we'll do every year without bank-busting transfer spends each season.
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That isnt my reading of his problems. He wouldnt necessarily need to buy to improve, he would just need the squad to be "his" squad. Which definitely means making some acquisitions but it doesnt mean a clear out is absolutely necessary, once he has won the dressing room around it will be his squad and he wouldnt lose it, but the problem looks to me like this isnt his squad yet. It feels like the players are pining for SAF, like a man out on a date with some bird who cant stop thinking about his ex.
 
Also regarding if we didn't sign RVP. We wouldn't have a signed a CM anyway.

Fergie wanted Lewandowski too. So it's quite clear that he wanted to sign another striker rather than a CM.
 
Also you cant just take RVP out in a vacuum. If he hadnt been there Rooney would have been up top and he would have banged in a shit load more goals than he did. Impossible to quantify the difference RVP made, but just subtracting his goals gets you nowhere near.
 
But it's not just RvP. This year we're missing Rooney and RvP. Carrick for large parts. Rafael for most. Vidic for large parts, Jones etc etc.
 
Adebesi said:
Also you cant just take RVP out in a vacuum. If he hadnt been there Rooney would have been up top and he would have banged in a shit load more goals than he did. Impossible to quantify the difference RVP made, but just subtracting his goals gets you nowhere near.
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Yeah you could argue one of the reasons Rooney is so impressive is due to Van Persie's lack of games/motivation as well. It makes Moyes' initial comments on Rooney has being needed "in case Van Persie breaks down" slightly nostradamus like or even more insulting to a player already keen to leave.
 
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