Moyes So Far!

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Arruda said:
Sorry, your best midfielder is Michael Carrick who's having the best time of his career, and even him would have a hard time gaining a first team spot in the top 10 European teams. I don't think for a club of United's stature calling your midfield ridiculous is that absurd. You don't even need to reach out to other clubs supporters to hear this opinion.
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Oh no, I understand that, you read it on here all the time, Im not saying your opinion is out of the blue, I was talking about this exact issue a couple of hours ago in another thread. Out midfield is certainly our Achilles heel, the weakest part of our team, to borrow from that post. I just think the point is overdone a lot of the time.
 
The grave concern with Moyes would have to be that with a finish outside the top 4 at the end of the season and with Rooney and RVP possibly wanting out.......are the likes of Gundogan and Barkley etc going to want to come and play for David Moyes.....very doubtful you'd have to imagine
 
Arruda said:
Disclaimer: This post was written for the Moyes: Stick or Sack thread, but it was closed before I finished it. It may look a bit out of context here as I've not read the discussion going on the previous pages, but I didn't want the time I took writing it to go to waste.

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Even though from an outside perspective Moyes doesn't seem like anywhere close to having justified such an high profile job, it's hard not to feel some sympathy for the man in the middle of all this. I think many here severely overrate United's squad because Sir Alex Ferguson could squeeze so much out of them. From a blatantly simplistic perspective you have an ageing defence, a ridiculous midfield and underwhelming wingers (relatively speaking to your rivals). Two wonderful forwards, but one is and has always been an injury prone player whose two great consecutive seasons were the exception to this rule. Yes, there are some exciting young players at United, but your rivals aren't lacking in this department either, if anything they're young players are more experienced than yours, so that's an advantage they have and that time alone will not cover.

It doesn't look like this is a remotely good enough team for most managers to work with given your rivals quality. I reckon Mourinho could make something out of this cocktail, but it would probably be something more à la Inter with lots of adaptations and some negative tactics against strong opponents, not what he's done with Chelsea or his best season at Madrid. Guardiola? Judging by what was seen at Barcelona and is now being seen at Munich I don't think he would even accept this job unless he was given 150m to splash on midfield so he could raise it to the level of his other teams. Even at Bayern he felt the need to strengthen the midfield and have enough world class options to cover any problems or under-performing players.

The suggestions that Ferguson left a good squad for Moyes to build upon seem exaggeratedly optimistic to me. The squad was good enough for SAF and no one else. That's a testament to how good he was, not to how bad Moyes is. The later could and should have done better so far, but adding injuries and lack of luck it seems to me he's underperfoming a bit in a terribly difficult context, not being atrociously bad, unless you could point a dozen managers who could undoubtedly do a lot better. I can only think of one. There are many managers with high pedigrees out there, but all of them also had bad seasons here and there and there's no reason to be sure they would have an easy time at United as well. Mourinho on the other hand had one underwhelming (not terrible) season in his entire career.

It's easy for a fan to fall into this kind of part. We Porto supporters also thought we had a world class team when Mourinho left. But apart from Deco, Ricardo Carvalho, and ageing Jorge Costa and Vitor Baía, the rest ultimately proved throughout their careers that they were average player punching above their weight under one of the best managers ever (Maniche, Costinha, Nuno Valente, Benny McCarthy, even Hélder fecking Postiga looked excellent under him).
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Thanks for this perspective, mate. Some very good and valid points.
 
I really wish he would stop saying that we have been playing "pretty well." We haven't.
 
Adebesi said:
Oh no, I understand that, you read it on here all the time, Im not saying your opinion is out of the blue, I was talking about this exact issue a couple of hours ago in another thread. Out midfield is certainly our Achilles heel, the weakest part of our team, to borrow from that post. I just think the point is overdone a lot of the time.
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I couldn't agree more. The squad Fergie left Moyes isn't nearly as poor as people make out. The major issue with it is that it wasn't strengthened at all in the summer when there was a clear necessity to do so. Bringing in two quality CMs (and there were some available had we acted) and a winger and get rid of a couple who hadn't made an impact in previous seasons and the squad would have been refreshed and the new signings would have boosted the players and fans. As it stands zero improvement was made and the players are less confident in themselves so we've regressed whilst those around us strengthened. That's the problem.
 
He did not stroll into the Carrington training complex and fire Ferguson’s entire coaching staff. He sat down with all of them individually, more than once, and offered Meulensteen the assistant manager’s position that had belonged to Mike Phelan for the previous five years. Promotion, essentially, for the Dutchman.

But Meulensteen didn’t like the idea of Moyes being more hands-on than Ferguson and decided, instead, to pursue his ambitions in management.

Even though Ferguson was of the opinion, in his recent autobiography, that of all his assistants only Steve McClaren was really cut out for the top job.
Moyes wanted to bring his people in but Steve Round became No 2 only after Meulensteen (now in charge at Fulham) opted to leave. To suggest — as some have this week — that the new manager ‘broke up the family’ would appear to be a one-eyed view of events.
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Well, there's a different take.

The entire article seems to fit into what I see happening, though others are sure to disagree.
 
I remember reading about that around the time, and a few others did too:

Carl said:
It's very rare that a manager comes in and keeps the old back room team. Also, Fergie handed off a lot of coaching responsibility to Rene and Mike but Moyes gets himself involved a lot more than Fergie so they weren't necessarily required.

Also, from what I gather Rene was given the chance to stay but chose to move on.
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Varun_Utd said:
Much ado about nothing.

Rene- He was in charge of training and with Moyes conducting it himself, a change of role was inevitable. Moyes gave him another role but he wanted to move. Fair fecks to him, not Moyes's fault.

AM- No surprise at all that the new manager brought his own assistant. Most managers would have done the same.

GK coach- Only one that is contentious as Steele was very good.
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It's unfortunate that he chose to move on but understandable that he might have wanted to branch out into management which he has done.

Steele being replaced by Woods was a change I was worried about (even though Woods was highly regarded) for various reasons but that seems to have gone well.

Which leaves Phelan. I don't see anything wrong in letting him go. At the time Moyes had planned for Rene to be his assistant instead but that didn't work out.

There are some issues with the coaching staff as it is (I don't really get the point of Lumsden), but from the three that left the club in the summer, like Varun said, it's much ado about nothing. From the three, Rene and Steele would have been the only two most would have wanted to have kept, and Woods seems to have done ok replacing Steele, while Rene was someone Moyes wanted to keep but he decided to move on.
 
I'm iust wondering. Moyes keeps saying he talks quite abit with fergie for advice and what not. We haven't seen a change in system and strategy in how we play. It's still 442 with that poor midfield, and it's still spread it to the right and cross. Is he being influenced by fergie?
 
Freak said:
I'm iust wondering. Moyes keeps saying he talks quite abit with fergie for advice and what not. We haven't seen a change in system and strategy in how we play. It's still 442 with that poor midfield, and it's still spread it to the right and cross. Is he being influenced by fergie?
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It's been 4-2-3-1 this season to be fair, not 4-4-2.
 
Interesting article. Tbh, it reads like United PR, preparing the fans for Rio & co's phasing-out and possibly some high-profile departures (Wayne's in particular).
 
This article is somehow contrary to the reports of the time that Rene was offered a job on the academy (essentially a downgrade). If he was really offered the job of assistant manager, well Moyes couldn't have offered him anything more and of course, can't be blamed for replacing the staff. I had worries about Steele leaving but as Damo said it looks that De Gea hasn't suffered at all from that. And Phelan was Phelan.
 
Whoever is in charge PR is doing bad job. How is blaming everything on senior players going to help Moyes? The last thing Moyes needs is a pissed off lockerroom just ask AVB. Also they've absolved Moyes of all the blame but neglected to mention anything positive he's done since he took over. If he was doing such a great job they'd have been players praising his approach to training, tactics, camaradrie etc. More important than players who have let Moyes down they should have given names of players who are happy with him. The whole point of PR is to project a positive image of someone and provide examples of great things they've done.
 
mic.m said:
Whoever is in charge PR is doing bad job. How is blaming everything on senior players going to help Moyes? The last thing Moyes needs is a pissed off lockerroom just ask AVB. Also they've absolved Moyes of all the blame but neglected to mention anything positive he's done since he took over. If he was doing such a great job they'd have been players praising his approach to training, tactics, camaradrie etc. More important than players who have let Moyes down they should have given names of players who are happy with him. The whole point of PR is to project a positive image of someone and provide examples of great things they've done.
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Huh? Read it again. They mention the training as something that the players enjoy, contrary to popular belief on here.

And why do you thing it's got anything to do with our PR people? Journalist offers different insight that poster doeant agree with = Must be a PR piece?
 
Kid Cunto said:
It's been 4-2-3-1 this season to be fair, not 4-4-2.
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It hasn't been that though, it's been a rigid 4-4-2, similar to Fergie's, but with Rooney operating higher up (earlier in the season). Moyes has been cautious and rightfully so, hence he's now using three midfielders.
 
Maybe this unified opposition to Moyes provides the platform to pull together, siege mentality.

Though I doubt he is the man for the job there are many other factors holding us back, and they've been well documented. IMV it's not only Moyes who should be looking to prove himself. The owners, the board, the coaching staff, senior players and those accused of being passengers. I wonder if a top class manager had accepted the job without a commitment of a huge ambition by the board/owners.
 
No dressing room mutiny at United, insists Fletcher

10 Jan 2014 17:21
The Scottish midfielder says the Reds squad accept that it will take time to adapt to the new methods deployed manager David Moyes.

Darren Fletcher insists United’s squad are buying into manager David Moyes’ plan for a new-look Reds – and he dismisses rumours that there is mutiny brewing in the Old Trafford camp.
The champions’ fall from grace in the Premier League title race, FA Cup exit and Capital One semi-final first-leg defeat at Sunderland has opened a can of worms at Old Trafford with reports of disenchantment in the dressing room.
But a decade ago the knives were similarly out for Sir Alex Ferguson with question marks over United’s future as a dominant power.
In 2004-05 midfielder Fletcher was into his second term as a fully-fledged United senior but ended the campaign without a trophy. The Reds had been deposed as champions by Arsenal the season previous in 2003-04 and followed that up empty-handed.
Even the following season in 2005-06 they lost the league again to Chelsea and finished with just the League Cup as a consolation prize.
However, 29-year-old Fletcher became part of a squad who overcame that three-season setback to win nine more trophies in the ensuing years.
“That was a transitional period,” said the Scot. “The manager was building a new team and I think it’s the same situation now, albeit a new manager.
“You have to give him time to get his own style, his own team, whatever he wants to try to implement. It can’t just happen where he comes in and makes gung-ho changes, rip everything apart. You’ve got to do it subtly and he’s done that.
“He’s made subtle changes on general things. And ultimately it’s all gearing the plan of how he feels he can achieve success at Manchester United.”
The speculation that the new strategies are not finding favour with the Reds dressing room was knocked back by Fletcher.
“I’ve not seen that at all, to be perfectly honest,” he added. “I’ve seen a group of players who are trying to take on board new ideas and trying to support the new manager.

“Yes it’s a little bit different, it always is when a new manager comes in – they are always different and bring their own style.
“You can see the manager’s ideas and it’s up to us players to start applying them on the pitch.
“When you’ve been used to something so long and something comes in to change it, it does take time - it’s not going to happen over night.This is a time for character more than anything to do with tactics or style. At times like this it is down to character.
“I’m a great believer that, yes, tactics, formations and certain players can make big differences but I think players’ attitudes, determination and character can count for more than that at times like this.
“We feel we have that character but it’s easy talking about it. We have to go out there and do it. The players are determined to do it, I know that for a fact. I’ve seen it in the dressing room. I see how much they are hurting.
“I see the hurt in the dressing room, I see players determined to do well, training extra hard and trying to put things right. I don’t think it’s a lack of effort.
“But we need a little bit more. That’s the thing we’ve always got to reiterate to them. We are doing everything we can but can we dig and produce that little bit more like we have done over the years.
“We’ve had spells where we haven’t played well, we haven’t won games in the past and we’ve always come through it. So we have to look back to that.
“I’ve been in situations where we’ve not won the league and we’ve been a bit off it towards the end of the season. But we always came good, we always believed in ourselves as a team as a squad and got on with whatever plans the manager had for us.”
United haven’t lost four consecutive matches in a season since 1961 when they suffered four league defeats on the trot against Birmingham, Arsenal, Bolton and Sheffield Wednesday in October and November.
The 2014 spate of defeats against Spurs, Swansea and Sunderland has put the side on red alert as they face FA Cup conquerors Swansea in the league today at Old Trafford.
“It is a must-win game without a shadow of a doubt,” said Fletcher. “It is a very unusual situation to have lost three games on the run. We have to get back to winning ways and although we feel things aren’t going our way we have to turn it round ourselves. We are good enough players, we are a good enough team, we are at home and we can overcome anything.”
Old Trafford, however, has been anything but a fortress with five visitors winning there this term.
“It’s unheard of to have lost this many times at Old Trafford. Usually that’s our strength at home,” added Fletcher.“The more you lose, the more confidence it gives to visiting teams. We have to put that right. We need the fans to be on our side.
“It’s easy to say they will be but we have to perform to get them on our side. And that will be a massive help. They have been fantastic. After the FA Cup defeat on Sunday the Stretford End were still singing for United as we walked off.
“The players have got to look to that and see that they are still behind us and wanting us to do well. Hopefully we can repay them but a bit of patience would be nice.
“Fans have expectations - and rightly so.”
Darren Fletcher was speaking at the launch of Aperol Spritz as Manchester United’s new global spirits partner.
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From MEN: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...manchester-united-players-not-against-6496806
 
mic.m said:
There's no player in the squad who's going to say he's clueless and incompetent in an interview. We will get the full picture after Moyes leaves or from anyone of the players who are leaving in the summer.
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Right but you can't just dismiss players coming out and supporting what he's doing. Consider what happened at Chelsea with AVB. Here, Fletcher is doing the opposite for a reason.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Right but you can't just dismiss players coming out and supporting what he's doing. Consider what happened at Chelsea with AVB. Here, Fletcher is doing the opposite for a reason.
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"Darren Fletcher was speaking at the launch of Aperol Spritz as Manchester United’s new global spirits partner."
 
Arruda said:
Disclaimer: This post was written for the Moyes: Stick or Sack thread, but it was closed before I finished it. It may look a bit out of context here as I've not read the discussion going on the previous pages, but I didn't want the time I took writing it to go to waste.

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Even though from an outside perspective Moyes doesn't seem like anywhere close to having justified such an high profile job, it's hard not to feel some sympathy for the man in the middle of all this. I think many here severely overrate United's squad because Sir Alex Ferguson could squeeze so much out of them. From a blatantly simplistic perspective you have an ageing defence, a ridiculous midfield and underwhelming wingers (relatively speaking to your rivals). Two wonderful forwards, but one is and has always been an injury prone player whose two great consecutive seasons were the exception to this rule. Yes, there are some exciting young players at United, but your rivals aren't lacking in this department either, if anything they're young players are more experienced than yours, so that's an advantage they have and that time alone will not cover.

It doesn't look like this is a remotely good enough team for most managers to work with given your rivals quality. I reckon Mourinho could make something out of this cocktail, but it would probably be something more à la Inter with lots of adaptations and some negative tactics against strong opponents, not what he's done with Chelsea or his best season at Madrid. Guardiola? Judging by what was seen at Barcelona and is now being seen at Munich I don't think he would even accept this job unless he was given 150m to splash on midfield so he could raise it to the level of his other teams. Even at Bayern he felt the need to strengthen the midfield and have enough world class options to cover any problems or under-performing players.

The suggestions that Ferguson left a good squad for Moyes to build upon seem exaggeratedly optimistic to me. The squad was good enough for SAF and no one else. That's a testament to how good he was, not to how bad Moyes is. The later could and should have done better so far, but adding injuries and lack of luck it seems to me he's underperfoming a bit in a terribly difficult context, not being atrociously bad, unless you could point a dozen managers who could undoubtedly do a lot better. I can only think of one. There are many managers with high pedigrees out there, but all of them also had bad seasons here and there and there's no reason to be sure they would have an easy time at United as well. Mourinho on the other hand had one underwhelming (not terrible) season in his entire career.

It's easy for a fan to fall into this kind of part. We Porto supporters also thought we had a world class team when Mourinho left. But apart from Deco, Ricardo Carvalho, and ageing Jorge Costa and Vitor Baía, the rest ultimately proved throughout their careers that they were average player punching above their weight under one of the best managers ever (Maniche, Costinha, Nuno Valente, Benny McCarthy, even Hélder fecking Postiga looked excellent under him).
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Excellent post. Thank you. Honestly, the number of times I've read "Omg we finished top last season this squad must be the best". Ridiculous.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
"Darren Fletcher was speaking at the launch of Aperol Spritz as Manchester United’s new global spirits partner."
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Right. And he didn't have to go to those lengths. To just dismiss what he said is to want the other story, not to take this as a possibility.
 
Ryan's Beard said:
That guy is such a fecking spleen. Did he fancy himself for the United job or something? He's like a fecking child.
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No! He's a "smart, awesome man from Holland," dontcha know...

Someone made a very good post on him not too long ago - could've been in this very thread: Someone who had attended one his seminars. I'll try to dig it up.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
There's one thing in particular here which I find very interesting: Moyes offered Rene the AM job. If this is true it's certainly noteworthy. I had no idea this was the role Moyes had in mind for him - I've always assumed he was offered a lesser role.
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The reports at the time that Rene got offered a lesser role (something on academy or maybe just one of the coaches of the first team) which pretty much was a sack without sacking. If it is true that he got offered the Assistant Manager role then I think that Moyes has done well for doing so, and Rene simply wasn't interested on continuing. Anyway if that really happened, no on can blame DM for anything about the sacking of old staff *.

* Replacing Steele didn't look particularly wise at the time but De Gea hasn't suffered at all, while who the feck cares about Phelan. He went from zero to hero after he was sacked.
 
pocco said:
Yeah, because we'll get a much better perspective from a player that's just been flogged by the new manager. Well done.
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You're missing the point. It goes both ways with Moyes and the players. If, for example, Moyes left he would be able to give details about why he had a difficult tenure. Right now all he can say is "we are working on our performances. The players are training well. We have money but in the January window it's hard to close any deals." Same as the players all they can say is "he's a good manager and we are enjoying training" There are some things that may be holding Moyes and the team back that will be revealed when someone is able to speak freely.
 
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