This is what I want to know as well.
If so, I'll be less inclined to not like totally diss his stupid hats in the future.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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This is what I want to know as well.
If so, I'll be less inclined to not like totally diss his stupid hats in the future.
I imagine most wanted or would've liked Mourinho. Certainly polls on here and other forums seem to bare that out. The objections to him have always seemed like a minority of purists (usually a bit blinkered ones too IMO)
Yes, but that isn't an objective POV, mate. Some (like me) fear that JM would've made United all about him...and the media certainly would have.
Blinkered in what way?
There were valid criticisms - I don't think that can be doubted - and the fact that the board, Ferguson and Gill decided not to hire him bears that out. They must have had their objections, which I suspect would be the same criticisms that have been levelled at him by the purists, as you say.
And Fergie's United wasn't all about him? This is what I've never got about the anti-Jose arguments. Ask fans of any other club, they all hated him & thought he was a manipulative, bullying egotist.
True. But...but...José doesn't convince that he truly loves any of his former clubs; what he seems to love is the fact that they found success together. Ok, so that's a bit of a desperate point...
If the story was the opposite, that all the United players wanted Moyes, it would be far more surprising. More than surprising, I would see it almost as evidence that there was something mentally wrong with them. What kind of player would choose Moyes over Mourinho, if they had that choice? Someone who has won nothing versus someone who has won titles in 4 countries now? Someone with virtually no experience of the CL, versus someone who has won it with two different clubs? Someone who has travelled all over Europe and is experienced in many different styles of coaching, or something who has travelled from Scotland to Liverpool via Preston?
There must be a logic to the Moyes appointment but I dont understand it myself and it doesnt surprise me in the least that the players didnt have that preference either. I guess a manager, like a parent, sometimes sees things that his underlings dont. And sometimes the wisdom of a decision takes a long time to reveal itself. Though it is also true that a parent can be spectacularly wrong, so it is also possible that is the case with SAF's decision here as well.
The idea he wasn't "classy" enough for United. A view that depended on a) the weird romantic (and subjective) view of "class" as any kind of important quality when hiring a manager and b) taking the entirely subjective outside view of a rival opposition manager (he's a dick/classless/can't stand him/makes it a circus etc) whilst ignoring all of Fergie's very similar traits with a rose tinted inside view (he's right/protecting the players/love him/I dont care what anyone thinks of us)
If Jose had been our manager, he'd have got us all behind him, like he did at his other clubs, and just like Fergie did. This much is as undoubtable as your "valid criticisms"
A moot point in football today. How many managers genuinely love their current or former club? Heck, how many of our players love the club? You think RVP and Rooney would stick around to play in the Europa league should we not finish in the top 4? Unfortunately its just the way of the world with football's increasing mercenary tendencies.
Who's to say Moyes loved Everton? He didn't hesitate the second we offered him the job, and if other top clubs came sniffing around you could be certain he would have taken those jobs too. Its possible Moyes spent 11 years at Everton because of no one offering him another job (not even the likes of Spurs) and because Everton have a patient chairman.
I honestly couldn't care less if Mourinho loves or is loyal to the club so long as we can get a few years out of him of winning things and keeping the players motivated. Once he leaves we find the next top manager. SAF is unfortunately one of a kind, most managers don't stick around for 6 years nevermind 26.
I think only the most stubborn and 'romantic' supporters when it comes to this club would ever have really thought Moyes was a better choice than Mourinho.
Without wishing to confuse you all with technical jargon, I have to say that he's a horrible self-obsessed twit who'd throw anyone or any club under the bus in order to avoid personal criticism. Nice clothes though.
Its a slippery and somewhat intangible point but I feel it in my bones as well. Partly about the expectation he would win his CL, get whatever other record he wanted out of us and then declare he wanted to be the first manager to win the league in England, Spain, Italy, Portugal and .... [add country here: Japan? America? Who the feck knows.] Or he wanted to be the first manager in 1000 years to win the SPL with Hibs. Or whatever other challenge he decided to add to his collection. It was a question of longevity I think, Mockney has pointed out we get a bit obsessed by that but it is surely a crucial point: he always fecks off after a few years.
Well naturally they are similar and much depends upon the emphasis the managers puts on the team from the start or events in the game.
What you ask of your wide players is surely important, you're not going to have such a fixation with crossing alone and the dispiriting type served up by Valencia these days at that. After having given him a new contract i'd have liked to see Moyes try to restore the Nani was voted POTS a couple of years ago. Januzaj and Zaha should have been phased into the side in tandem rather than creating a dependency on a teenager at the expense of better tactics.
Moreover we've the seen team press opponents in specific fixtures and parts of games, it's a question of instruction for they must be up to the task in terms of fitness. Fletcher is *cliche altert* like a new signing and would help to implement such a system also.
What it boils down to however, is that repeating some half-baked version of a 4-4-2 has brought the side little certainty and erratic results.
Agree with pretty much every word.
And Fergie took the owners of the club to court over a horse and nearly forced our best player out once he'd already retired as a final "parting blow". The phrase "but he's our cnut" springs to mind.
Excellent point Mockney - a successful club and successful manager become synonymous anyway... For those who say JM would have overshadowed the club, well... SAF was the club too
Heck look at the papers atm they're all about DM anyway, it's bound to happen because the manager is the figurehead
If anything, JM's tendency to draw attention to himself deflects a lot of pressure away from the team and that could've helped the team during adverse spells
Heck look at the papers atm they're all about DM anyway, it's bound to happen because the manager is the figurehead
If anything, JM's tendency to draw attention to himself deflects a lot of pressure away from the team and that could've helped the team during adverse spells
Aye, he's also proven, and great at motivating players and getting them to operate under him, something our new, non-cnutish manager has failed at so far.
Mockney said:
Oh come on. Rooney was hardly behaving like an angel himself. And that horse had it coming.
Certainly not, but you could argue that around the time SAF decided to retire (January) he stopped giving a feck about him and didn't care how pissed off he made Rooney.
How dare you dispute my footballing knowledge - don't you know that I won...er....Best Use of Stupid Smilies as recently as 2010?
Don't think it's a desperate point at all, man. The fear that Mourinho would've turned United into another chapter in the story of...Mourinho - is legitimate enough in my book. And then the question becomes in what fashion he would've done this. I doubt anyone minds a manager with a huge ego (Fergie clearly had that too in his own way), but a manager who has a history of turning things ugly when they aren't going his way? That's something else entirely.
I don't mind Maureen - not really. But he has never looked like a United manager to me. That's not rational and pragmatic, I know. But I agree with Charlton, who famously claimed that he "pontificates too much".
Mourinho 'cried' after missing out on United job
Mourinho wanted the job his behaviour made that clear.
I genuinely think making Rooney's position untenable with the fans (and misleadingly according to Rooney) was entirely personal. What benefit could it possibly have to the club?
I do get the anti-Mourinho thing, he is a prick, but I never gave two shits about that. SAF was a prick when he wanted to be, Wenger is a prick when he wants to be, many great managers will go to any length to ensure success. if Moyes had a few more eggs in that ballsack of his he'd have pulled off some more gutsy moves than we've seen from him so far, which by all accounts has been to play it safe , keep all his players and try replicate what SAF did last season, 'cept Moyes isn't SAF, he can't terrify the players into playing well and yielding results like SAF did, and it's backfiring massively on him now.
Yes, I think everyone would have gotten behind him if he was appointed manager - as I expect our fans would for any successor chosen by Ferguson.
It was you who said the criticisms were not valid, when they were. They are the reason why he wasn't appointed despite his CV. If there were no genuine objections then he would have walked into the job, obviously.
Also the idea that he wasn't 'classy' enough is only one of many reasons people didn't want Mourinho at the club. It wasn't high on my list of objections. So whilst you might be able to dismiss that particular criticsm as not being legitimate there are plenty others which you haven't addressed - this has all been discussed before though.
When I saw this in the article it hurt. A) Because its true and B) Because under Ferguson what happened in team meetings stayed in team meetings.
But then we didn't broadcast our failures in the transfer market back then either...
Ironically (perhaps), SAF might've felt that "the club comes first" thing meant nothing to Wayne.
And we didnt lose three games in a row. Except when we had already won the league. And even then, that was years ago.
the truth is that Moyes would dominate Woody and other board members bard Fergie.
Maybe some key figures were afraid on losing their influence on club's matters.
Maybe some key figures were afraid on losing their influence on club's matters.
The problem is less the system and more the intensity of our game. We play at far too slow a tempo. Throwing an extra central midfielder in isn't going to help as we've seen. People put too much emphasis on the formation for me. It's the mentality of the team that needs to change.
Perhaps things would have been different if Gill was still around, and I believe any previous comments made by Ferguson and Gill regarding the situation after his retirement are rendered null and void by the fact that they both quit at the same time. I doubt that this was ever part of the plan, and I believe that this outcome went a long way to our choosing Moyes over Mourinho.
I can't help but fear for what a character like Mourinho would have done to our club. We weren't hiring a new manager this summer so much as handing someone the keys to the club, and I believe that some of the key traditions that we should all value about United simply do not match up with what we would be getting from him.
Mourinho is almost certainly a better tactician than Moyes, but I think Moyes is head and shoulders a better option to manage the club.
I can't help but fear for what a character like Mourinho would have done to our club. We weren't hiring a new manager this summer so much as handing someone the keys to the club, and I believe that some of the key traditions that we should all value about United simply do not match up with what we would be getting from him.
Mourinho is almost certainly a better tactician than Moyes, but I think Moyes is head and shoulders a better option to manage the club.
It'd have been ridiculous if Moyes got it.
It wasn't over the horse, it was over its sperm.
I think it is both, particularly so in recent months. The defence requires the protection and team's all round resilience is a shadow of what it once was. Of course just throwing on another midfielder won't be of great use if he is auditioning for the part of a wheelie bin with one wheel.
My sperm is me.
Disclaimer: This post was written for the Moyes: Stick or Sack thread, but it was closed before I finished it. It may look a bit out of context here as I've not read the discussion going on the previous pages, but I didn't want the time I took writing it to go to waste.
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Even though from an outside perspective Moyes doesn't seem like anywhere close to having justified such an high profile job, it's hard not to feel some sympathy for the man in the middle of all this. I think many here severely overrate United's squad because Sir Alex Ferguson could squeeze so much out of them. From a blatantly simplistic perspective you have an ageing defence, a ridiculous midfield and underwhelming wingers (relatively speaking to your rivals). Two wonderful forwards, but one is and has always been an injury prone player whose two great consecutive seasons were the exception to this rule. Yes, there are some exciting young players at United, but your rivals aren't lacking in this department either, if anything they're young players are more experienced than yours, so that's an advantage they have and that time alone will not cover.
It doesn't look like this is a remotely good enough team for most managers to work with given your rivals quality. I reckon Mourinho could make something out of this cocktail, but it would probably be something more à la Inter with lots of adaptations and some negative tactics against strong opponents, not what he's done with Chelsea or his best season at Madrid. Guardiola? Judging by what was seen at Barcelona and is now being seen at Munich I don't think he would even accept this job unless he was given 150m to splash on midfield so he could raise it to the level of his other teams. Even at Bayern he felt the need to strengthen the midfield and have enough world class options to cover any problems or under-performing players.
The suggestions that Ferguson left a good squad for Moyes to build upon seem exaggeratedly optimistic to me. The squad was good enough for SAF and no one else. That's a testament to how good he was, not to how bad Moyes is. The later could and should have done better so far, but adding injuries and lack of luck it seems to me he's underperfoming a bit in a terribly difficult context, not being atrociously bad, unless you could point a dozen managers who could undoubtedly do a lot better. I can only think of one. There are many managers with high pedigrees out there, but all of them also had bad seasons here and there and there's no reason to be sure they would have an easy time at United as well. Mourinho on the other hand had one underwhelming (not terrible) season in his entire career.
It's easy for a fan to fall into this kind of part. We Porto supporters also thought we had a world class team when Mourinho left. But apart from Deco, Ricardo Carvalho, and ageing Jorge Costa and Vitor Baía, the rest ultimately proved throughout their careers that they were average player punching above their weight under one of the best managers ever (Maniche, Costinha, Nuno Valente, Benny McCarthy, even Hélder fecking Postiga looked excellent under him).
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Even though from an outside perspective Moyes doesn't seem like anywhere close to having justified such an high profile job, it's hard not to feel some sympathy for the man in the middle of all this. I think many here severely overrate United's squad because Sir Alex Ferguson could squeeze so much out of them. From a blatantly simplistic perspective you have an ageing defence, a ridiculous midfield and underwhelming wingers (relatively speaking to your rivals). Two wonderful forwards, but one is and has always been an injury prone player whose two great consecutive seasons were the exception to this rule. Yes, there are some exciting young players at United, but your rivals aren't lacking in this department either, if anything they're young players are more experienced than yours, so that's an advantage they have and that time alone will not cover.
It doesn't look like this is a remotely good enough team for most managers to work with given your rivals quality. I reckon Mourinho could make something out of this cocktail, but it would probably be something more à la Inter with lots of adaptations and some negative tactics against strong opponents, not what he's done with Chelsea or his best season at Madrid. Guardiola? Judging by what was seen at Barcelona and is now being seen at Munich I don't think he would even accept this job unless he was given 150m to splash on midfield so he could raise it to the level of his other teams. Even at Bayern he felt the need to strengthen the midfield and have enough world class options to cover any problems or under-performing players.
The suggestions that Ferguson left a good squad for Moyes to build upon seem exaggeratedly optimistic to me. The squad was good enough for SAF and no one else. That's a testament to how good he was, not to how bad Moyes is. The later could and should have done better so far, but adding injuries and lack of luck it seems to me he's underperfoming a bit in a terribly difficult context, not being atrociously bad, unless you could point a dozen managers who could undoubtedly do a lot better. I can only think of one. There are many managers with high pedigrees out there, but all of them also had bad seasons here and there and there's no reason to be sure they would have an easy time at United as well. Mourinho on the other hand had one underwhelming (not terrible) season in his entire career.
It's easy for a fan to fall into this kind of part. We Porto supporters also thought we had a world class team when Mourinho left. But apart from Deco, Ricardo Carvalho, and ageing Jorge Costa and Vitor Baía, the rest ultimately proved throughout their careers that they were average player punching above their weight under one of the best managers ever (Maniche, Costinha, Nuno Valente, Benny McCarthy, even Hélder fecking Postiga looked excellent under him).
From the press conference today:
RVP won't be back "for a little while yet".
Rooney is off for some warm weather training and the club hope he'll be back for the Chelsea match.
RVP won't be back "for a little while yet".
Rooney is off for some warm weather training and the club hope he'll be back for the Chelsea match.
I cant count the number of times have had discussions with people in real life, usually non-United fans, arguing against the sentiments expressed by your post Arruda. I respect your opinion but I think the view that our squad is shit is massively overdone. The grain of truth within it, for me, is that it had no real right to win the league, man for man it is inferior to City's and Chelsea's. But the "ridiculous midfielders and wingers" is a massive exaggeration for me. The team isnt that bad and it has a lot of youthful potential in it.
Sorry, your best midfielder is Michael Carrick who's having the best time of his career, and even him would have a hard time gaining a first team spot in the top 10 European teams. I don't think for a club of United's stature calling your midfield ridiculous is that absurd. You don't even need to reach out to other clubs supporters to hear this opinion.
What playing for Chelsea?
When can we expect to see Hernandez tomorrow? The 88th minute if we're losing?
Sorry for the stream of cynical garbage I'm spewing out but the frustration has boiled over. Never be negative while we're actually playing but I can't keep up the act of positivity the rest of the time.
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