A very good point.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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A very good point.
not just Phelan, but combine him with Rene and Steele and 2 or 3 others who are gone and its a huge loss.
Moral, bonding, trust, history, familarity, knowledge, friendship etc etc all gone.
I totally agree with you.
It would have provided consistency, thats about it. None of us know the full circumstances, politics, relationships etc that come into these things.
I think changing the coaching staff was probably the right move at the time, in hindsight it's obviously something that can easily be pointed to but I'm not sure how someone could be expected to walk into an organisation the size of Utd and not change anything and yet be expected to make his own mark.
Steele is not a very good example, though, is he? If anything De Gea looks a more complete keeper now than he ever did. I don't know who these two or three others are, to be fair. As for the last part - this is very intangible stuff, isn't it? Friendship and familiarity - well, people change jobs in football all the time, even when the manager remains the same, and every individual player will react differently to X, Y or Z leaving the club.
at a time when there were already enough changes, we didnt need anymore.
bringing in the backroom team, was a step he didnt need to do and could have done gradually.
I think we do know a fair bit don't we? Didn't one of Rene or Phelan give it the "you're used to managing a rowing boat and you're now managing a yacht" or something similar? I get the impression that Phelan and Rene somewhat made it impossible for Moyes to keep them on realistically. We've heard enough from the two of them to conclude they had an inflated sense of self worth here at Old Trafford (or, indeed they did actually do as much as they say they did which would equally have no place under a new manager).
I think Moyes would be sensible enough to give himself the best situation in which to try and manage United and if he in any way felt that those two would make it more difficult then he was right to get rid. I think had they been more ready to step down and work under and for Moyes it would have been stupid to get rid of them but from everything we've heard since it sounds very much like they weren't ready to do that.
Yes, well - but it seems like you're assuming the staff could have been easily retained in their old functions, unproblematic and smooth: and it clearly doesn't work that way.
It's the staff,along with the transfer saga, which gripes me more then anything.
No problem bringing his own men in. That's fine. But the likes of Phil Neville and Giggsy should not be there. If he wanted to bring them, put them in charge of the under age groups to gain experience and learn
I bet Giggs is a great coach. He knows everything there is to know about the game. No doubt Phil Neville is good too. These guys have grown up at United and witnessed a lot of different methods. I'm sure they know what they're doing
that was an Everton problem, not ours. many set ups/clubs/business etc etc dont need a complete overhaul when the top man is changed...normally he makes changes one by one over time and puts in his own stamp.
Even though Phil Neville has said he is "learning on the job"...Sorry but I don't buy it.
They're are just starting their careers in this field of work and shouldn't be learning at United's first team. Giggs is still their team mate!
No doubt, they will be great coaches in time but, I still feel he should have brought more experienced people in for them roles
I always saw their appointment to the coaching staff as little mroe than a sop to the fans, a bit of window dressing for Moyes and Round.
The current inflexibility of tactics and weak intensity on the field must ultimately have its source in place.
The current inflexibility of tactics and weak intensity on the field must ultimately have its source in place.
They did bring in more a experienced coach - Moyes. He takes all training sessions. Giggs and Neville probably run individual drills for him or something. I'm sure they're more than capable of that.
If only he spelled his name Moyez instead of Moyes...none of this would be happening.
Maybe so...It's all speculation really. None of us know
Moysiah
Moysty Moist Moyes Girls who like Moyes, who like Moyes to be girls, who do Moyes like they're girls, who do girls like their Moyes
(Best user name ever btw!!!)
Maybe so...It's all speculation really. None of us know
Moysiah
Girls who like Moyes, who like Moyes to be girls, who do Moyes like they're girls, who do girls like their Moyes
(Best user name ever btw!!!)
You're right, none of us know. So why do you always take such an extreme and critical view all the time? Surely your intelligent enough to know you don't really know what you're talking about on these matters.
And I could easily say the exact same thing to you...How do you know Ryan Giggs and Phil Neville are great coaches? You don't! How do you know how hands on they are and if they do drills or not? You don't!
The place would be boring and uninteresting if we were all mindless and all agreed on the one thing or never speculated on anything in regards the goings on at the club.
I appreciate you don't agree with me or share my views and thats great. The discussion on such things is all the better for it but, the tone of your post seemed a bit harsh. I'm sure it wasn't, just how it came across to me.
Anyway, you have your views, I have mine so enjoy it. It's great being able to debate and discuss these things whether we agree or not
He's right on that Pocco. Just because Giggs and Neville know that club upside down it doesn't necessarily make them good coaches. Giggs could be an awful coach. Just like many other great players have made woeful coaches and managers.
It also becomes a question of necessity. I can see the point of bringing Round and I guess Lumsden but Woods as well? I'm not so sure. Even though there are people still at the club who know about the players, it's clear that Rene and Mike worked with the players more directly than anyone else other than SAF. By your logic above, the fitness coach should be able to provide important information on each player but how far does that go? He's a fitness coach. Not a football coach so in my eyes, the level of information he's providing to Moyes only goes so far.
What cant be denied is that with the exodus of Rene and Mike, we lost something. We dont know the full extent of it as all relevant details surrounding their time at the club were not revealed but enough was that we know they played a vital role. You just cant rubbish what they did because they come across as bellends in the public sphere.
You said you have huge question marks on them. I'm curious what these are.
These question marks are mainly about how well they would've - actually - worked with David Moyes. That's the most important question here. Rene could not have gone on in his old role - that seems quite obvious. And he wasn't interested in a lesser role. So, what would people have Moyes do, then? Offer him an even more influential role than the one he had?
It's not a matter of rubbishing their contribution. The staff is always important - but not nearly as important as the man in charge. And whether these people are compatible with him is the only question that matters at the end of the day.
Right. Based on the fact Moyes chose to stick to his guns and say "I want to run training". Nothing inherently wrong with that but it's a choice Moyes has to live with. He didn't have to do that. That's what people forget. He could have chosen to learn from Rene for a period of time and then take over from there. Moyes had options as well in terms of choosing how training would be run and who would work with him. Some people are acting like it's a one-way street. That's what I disagree with.
Good point though. Compatibility is important. I think continuity was as well. I think it was wrong to assume Giggs & Neville could provide similar insight to Phelan & Rene and dress that up as continuity.
Well, as has been said before, De Gea doesn't seem to have suffered much from working with Woods. Quite to the contrary. This is a case in point, in fact: the main concern at the time was that De Gea and Steele had such a great relationship, that De Gea trusted him and so forth. Same argument that was brought up just now in this thread regarding the staff in general: friendships will be broken up, the sense of familiarity lost, etc. Well, nobody likes it when a trusted colleague moves on, that's human nature - but this is the game: these are professional people, sudden changes in the personnel you work with is part and parcel of football.
Moyes could have adapted himself rather than changing things for everyone else. With the transition from Fergie to Moyes, it would have been better for Moyes to adjust and then readjust over time instead of forcing everyone else to change for his benefit. He should have let Rene continue handle training and worked with him to adapt it somewhat or just leave it alone since it seemed to work well. It wasn't broken so it doesn't need an overhaul. One person, even the manager, adjusting to changes is far easier than 30 people having to adjust to a new regime. In a year or two, he could have made his changes and done whatever he wants once the team is stable and the players have had time to adjust. In the process, Moyes could have learned a lot from having other staff he's never worked with before. And it's evident there is a lot he needs to learn from his first 6 months.
It would be unreasonable, surely, to expect the man to bow to Rene's authority on the training field? That just wouldn't work. Fergie delegated from a certain position, as a grand old man. Moyes is twenty years younger. It's his style to be in charge of the training, in a hands-on way. We can't expect him to give up that just to accommodate Rene - that's not reasonable at all in my view.
And I could easily say the exact same thing to you...How do you know Ryan Giggs and Phil Neville are great coaches? You don't! How do you know how hands on they are and if they do drills or not? You don't!
The place would be boring and uninteresting if we were all mindless and all agreed on the one thing or never speculated on anything in regards the goings on at the club.
I appreciate you don't agree with me or share my views and thats great. The discussion on such things is all the better for it but, the tone of your post seemed a bit harsh. I'm sure it wasn't, just how it came across to me.
Anyway, you have your views, I have mine so enjoy it. It's great being able to debate and discuss these things whether we agree or not
I don't know any of that, as I said. But I don't think I could ever find it within myself to consistently criticise someone over something I know nothing about.
I'm more than willing to trust the likes of Moyes and Fergie on this. I don't think Moyes would bring in incompetent people and he hopefully did run this by Fergie.
I do remember the likes of Fergie and Scholes, just last year, talking about Giggs going on to become a top manager. Obviously they rate his credentials for this type of role.
When you are in the position we are in, it is always hard to find the positives. And I've said plenty positive about Moyes. Especially regarding the CL and I'm not advocating for his sacking..Least now anyways
I'm sure Giggs has the ability to be a top manager some day. I don't question that. I just find it hard to swallow that Moyes appointed him, when he has no experience as a coach and Moyes had no clue what he is like in the role. Moyes never worked with him nor has anyone, while Giggs has been a coach. It would have been great if he was put working with the reserves. Considering thats apparently where Moyes wanted to put Rene
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He doesn't get rid of them, he probably won't be able to change anything, put his stamp on the team. He does, he can lose the backroom.
He was in a no win situation.
Again, this sounds fine in theory. In practice, however, these people have to be compatible with the man in charge. It's not realistic - nor reasonable - to expect Moyes to let Rene handle the training. If you want to put your stamp on a team and take it in your own direction, it's not advisable to let another coach keep on keeping on in the image of the manager you're replacing, is it?
Looking at us right now it's easy to conclude that every decision Moyes has made - has been the wrong one. He still hasn't turned it around, still hasn't come to grips with the whole business, it's too early to tell precisely what he has done wrong and what will turn out to be right moves on his part in the end.
taking the piss
Not really.
December:
Dec 4 United 0 Everton 1
Dec 7 United 0 Newcastle 1
Dec 15 Aston Villa 1 United 3
Dec 21 United 3 West Ham 1
Dec 26 Hull 2 United 3
Dec 28 Norwich 0 United 1
Yeah that's a fair point as well but I think it shows de Gea's mental strength to deal with that because him and Steele were close. Perhaps it's different for a goalkeeper because you're just working with one coach on a one-on-one basis. Whereas for the other players, the dynamics arent the same.
Well if they're compatible then why would it matter? I dont think it's bowing to Rene's authority per say. If Rene is handling training with Moyes' ideals in mind, is that diminishing Moyes' authority? When I said "learn from" I meant "work with" as in a sort of joint partnership. A sort of compromise if you will. It seems you're assuming if Rene handled training, it would mean everything he did would be geared towards the work he did under Ferguson. If that's teh case, then there's no point in him being an AM for Moyes because Moyes obviously has to impart his ideals. But what Rene does have is the knowledge of the players and the club and what I am trying to say is that he could help Moyes impart his vision onto the players that he knows very well.
You said yourself you had huge question marks over Rene and Mike in terms of compatibility. If Rene was to stay, where would you have seen him fit?
I just edited that post chester so apologies if you're already responding to it.
From what's been said Moyes wanted to keep him on as a youth coach, mainly - developing players, etc., perhaps working with individual senior players as well. I'm sure he would have done a good job there - but he clearly felt this would be a demotion of sorts, and I can't blame him for that.
The first point - well, it all comes down to the same old thing: Moyes is hands-on, wants to be in charge of the training, wants to do things his way. To me that seems perfectly incompatible with Rene's old role. Would we have benefited from it IF he had decided to change his own approach, i.e. do things more like Fergie in this respect? Perhaps - but that is pure speculation. Is it reasonable to expect him to do this? No - I'm adamant it isn't.
Aye but I think it gets to what you were originally discussing: compatibility. Maybe you saw that has being willing to take a lesser role. I interpreted it as being willing to take on a different set of ideals but still using the experience and knowledge you have to impart these new ideals.
With less delegation of coaching duties comes great responsibility for what is then produced on the pitch in that aspect. I thought Steve Round was supposed to be this well regarded and innovative assistant, little evidence of it however.
I heard that De Gea spoke of extra training sessions to turn the team's fortunes around, do people have much confidence in new ideas being considered? A new formation or increased tempo in games for example? A reduced emphasis on the keeper lumping the ball up the pitch instead of passing it out to the defence?
I heard that De Gea spoke of extra training sessions to turn the team's fortunes around, do people have much confidence in new ideas being considered? A new formation or increased tempo in games for example? A reduced emphasis on the keeper lumping the ball up the pitch instead of passing it out to the defence?
I can see that - yes. But look at this from Moyes' point of view: He's taking over from the biggest authority imaginable - a man the players have a tremendous respect for. Perhaps he felt that it was imperative that whatever else was uncertain (and almost everything was!) it was at least no doubt whatsoever who was in charge: I think he wanted to - as others have suggested too - let the players know precisely this in no uncertain terms right from the beginning. Keeping Rene (or Phelan) on in roles that Fergie had given them through delegation would have made this more difficult. Fergie left people like Rene in charge of things to an extent that might be - again - incompatible with the managerial style Moyes felt was right. And then we're back were we started: Moyes did appreciate Rene's experience - but he couldn't (or wouldn't) keep him in on in the same function. So he offered him a position of less authority (let's put it like that), which was not good enough for Rene - which is perfectly understandable.
To me this all boils to one man: Moyes. If he is the right man for this job none of these details will matter. We won't be debating the wisdom of letting these people go a year from now. If he's not the right man for the job - well, I'm inclined to say it doesn't matter either. Rene and Phelan won't make a crucial difference if their boss is not up to the task.
I keep coming back to the same thing every time I consider such questions: 4-3-3. Some kind of 4-3-3. Drop the (traditional) wingers - who aren't performing anyway.
True but I feel there has also should be some flexibility on Moyes part. I think the idea that he had to it by himself (but with his yes men) is a bit flawed but like you said when the results go your way no one doubts you.
On the flip side, he also could have used Rene's previous authority as a way to win over the players. "Look, here's a man who has worked with you and Sir Alex and knows you very well. He stands by me as your new manager and I expect you do the same". Obviously I'm painting a skewed picture of reality here but just doing so to make a point.
I think what definitely holds some weight is that Moyes needs to get his own players in. I had some reservation towards this idea but I recently talked with a friend of mine who has watched United for a very long time and I highly respect him and his perspective. He told me that I should consider the fact that when Fergie first came to United, the experienced players didn't really take to his methods all that well. So he moved on the ones who werent complying, stuck with the ones who did, bought players who suited his ideals and the rest is history. After we spoke, I saw more sense in what people were trying to say when we hear "but he needs to get his own players in". For Moyes, it may or may not work out and it could drag the club's position even further down but since we gave him a 6 year contract, I think it's worth seeing how it goes if he gets his own players in the team. That's why I'm willing to give him until next January to sort it out. We have to draw the line somewhere but on current viewing, I think he should get that much time, even though in my book he hasn't really deserved/earned it.
The issue is that the Glazers up to this point have been seemingly tight on the pursestrings and still struggle with the concept of agent fees so there are concerns if Moyes will be fully backed as the media keeps projecting. Based on how the summer went, I'm a bit worried about this
Aye. I'm worried about this too. To me this is the key: He needs to get players in and at least some of these players are bound to be, well, bloody expensive. Without full backing from the owners he's facing an impossible task, really.
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