Moyes So Far!

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Sir Matt said:
:lol: ******* alert!

I think most fans are upset, not because we won't win any trophies this season, but because we aren't even competitive or entertaining.
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:lol: Ha I was wondering who would be the first to reel that one out... It's OK, I'm fully aware that certain view aren't allowed on this forum without being attacked under this banner. Is the censoring your own, or has it now become one of those automatic things?

I'm not questioning why fans are upset, they have every right to be - I'm fecking upset. The results are apalling and the football is dire. The question is how we address this, and especially how best to address it in the long term.

The question is whether we go down the route that the likes of Chelsea and City take, of desperately chasing success by firing the manager every year, or whether we see if our own method can work. I approved of the choice when it was made in May, because it was in line with what has made us different from those clubs for the last couple of decades, and I still approve of it now.

And it is more important to stick with it now than it was back then, as changing tack would not only put us int he same boat as them, but make us look worse, having postured at doing things differently, only to panic and give up on our chocie within a few months. That would make the club and its supporters look weak, incinsere and foolish, without giving us any guarantee of future success.

Don't think that if we fired Moyes today, his replacement would suddenly turn things round and we'd be fine. The experience of every other club tells us that the more likely scenario is that he becomes just the first of a constant stream of failed managers.
 
niMic said:
And maybe he shouldn't have been, since it turned out to be such a good idea to fire him in the end.
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Without going into the details of Big Ron's tenure (which wasn't a horrible one all things said and done) I think the key term here is "time". If we had fired Big Ron after six months it is highly unlikely we would've replaced him with Fergie - for instance. Well, no matter. Some things are meant to be, others simply ain't. But it's usually wise not to do things in haste. Sacking a man who is yet to come to terms with an immensely difficult job after six months - is impatient and potentially very foolish. In my humble, that is.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
It's simple. Buck stops with the manager. He picks the team, prepares the team for games, comes up with the tactics and ultimately the players try and apply his methods and instructions. While in charge he has the power to move them on.

Plenty seem happy to give Fergie all the credit for the league win last season without much credit going to the players to give Moyes even more benefit of the doubt, so it cuts both ways.
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Ultimately the players try... So if they're fecking that bit up, it's still on their shoulders too.


Plenty seem happy to give Fergie credit because he was genuinely the best manager ever. The reason those same people are willing to give Moyes benefit of the doubt is because they realise that one of the reasons Moyes is struggling to get the same levels of performance out of this team as Fergie did is simply because Fergie was so good. No one would be able to get this team to get the sort of results SAF did. Moyes and the players have to look at themselves and realise that while the manager certainly isn't as good as last season, the final ball and the general play from individuals hasn't been as good either.
 
Sir A1ex said:
:lol: Ha I was wondering who would be the first to reel that one out... It's OK, I'm fully aware that certain view aren't allowed on this forum without being attacked under this banner. Is the censoring your own, or has it now become one of those automatic things?

I'm not questioning why fans are upset, they have every right to be - I'm fecking upset. The results are apalling and the football is dire. The question is how we address this, and especially how best to address it in the long term.

The question is whether we go down the route that the likes of Chelsea and City take, of desperately chasing success by firing the manager every year, or whether we see if our own method can work. I approved of the choice when it was made in May, because it was in line with what has made us different from those clubs for the last couple of decades, and I still approve of it now.

And it is more important to stick with it now than it was back then, as changing tack would not only put us int he same boat as them, but make us look worse, having postured at doing things differently, only to panic and give up on our chocie within a few months. That would make the club and its supporters look weak, incinsere and foolish, without giving us any guarantee of future success.

Don't think that if we fired Moyes today, his replacement would suddenly turn things round and we'd be fine. The experience of every other club tells us that the more likely scenario is that he becomes just the first of a constant stream of failed managers.
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We don't

If we fire Moyes, it's because he deserves it for purely "performance not up to standard"

City sacking mancini after finishing 2nd is classless, so does Chelsea with their previous sacking (AVB, Grant, RDM, Mourinho part I), they haven't done that bad and deserves to be given time, but Moyes..... oh dear.....

THe same with Madrid, they fired a CL winning Coach in Del Bosque, that is classless. Sacking Moyes for getting us 7th is not classless, it is expected. And the reason he's still here so far is our persistence of being houllier and thou thinking it's not the united way.
 
Sky1981 said:
We don't

If we fire Moyes, it's because he deserves it for purely "performance not up to standard"

City sacking mancini after finishing 2nd is classless, so does Chelsea with their previous sacking (AVB, Grant, RDM, Mourinho part I), they haven't done that bad and deserves to be given time, but Moyes..... oh dear.....

THe same with Madrid, they fired a CL winning Coach in Del Bosque, that is classless. Sacking Moyes for getting us 7th is not classless, it is expected. And the reason he's still here so far is our persistence of being houllier and thou thinking it's not the united way.
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Agree with this. Chance of Moyes getting sacked if we finished 2nd and reached a FA Cup final - 0%, and rightly so. We've already displayed more patience than anyone else would have done. It's not wrong to get rid of a manager who is fast approaching the point of no return.
 
You know what's weird? My mum pronounces his name Moy-Es... as if it's two syllables... I have no idea why.

Maybe she's been hanging around with Barry Davies...
 
Sky1981 said:
We don't

If we fire Moyes, it's because he deserves it for purely "performance not up to standard"

City sacking mancini after finishing 2nd is classless, so does Chelsea with their previous sacking (AVB, Grant, RDM, Mourinho part I), they haven't done that bad and deserves to be given time, but Moyes..... oh dear.....

THe same with Madrid, they fired a CL winning Coach in Del Bosque, that is classless. Sacking Moyes for getting us 7th is not classless, it is expected. And the reason he's still here so far is our persistence of being houllier and thou thinking it's not the united way.
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No it's because sensible people understand that five months isn't enough time to conclusively know that someone isn't up to the task, much less in a role as big as this and in succession to Fergie. "Overseeing seismic organisational change" is how they'd put it in industry. I doubt very many people are wiling to say conclusively that they believe Moyes will be hugely successful at United but he, or any other manager, deserve the time to at least have a good go at the job rather than being drummed out at the first sign of trouble.

If this forum had been around when Fergie was hired you'd have had people saying "Why are we hiring some no mark? Yeah, he's won some leagues but it's only Scotland. And he won then Cup Winners Cup, not the European Cup. Why didn't we hire Venables?"
 
I'd be shocked if this hasn't already been brought up but what the feck was that sub about last night? We go 2-1 down and he brings on Fletcher. It was almost as if he were saying "losing 2-1 isn't bad. make sure they don't get a third though, if possible"

I do admit, I hate his lack of winning mentality. I'd love it when Fergie had his meltdowns because it showed he cared, how hungry he was to win. Moyes just doesn't seem capable of it. He's too nice.

I recon behind the scenes Fergie is actually second guessing his decision.
 
Sir A1ex said:
:lol: Ha I was wondering who would be the first to reel that one out... It's OK, I'm fully aware that certain view aren't allowed on this forum without being attacked under this banner. Is the censoring your own, or has it now become one of those automatic things?

I'm not questioning why fans are upset, they have every right to be - I'm fecking upset. The results are apalling and the football is dire. The question is how we address this, and especially how best to address it in the long term.

The question is whether we go down the route that the likes of Chelsea and City take, of desperately chasing success by firing the manager every year, or whether we see if our own method can work. I approved of the choice when it was made in May, because it was in line with what has made us different from those clubs for the last couple of decades, and I still approve of it now.

And it is more important to stick with it now than it was back then, as changing tack would not only put us int he same boat as them, but make us look worse, having postured at doing things differently, only to panic and give up on our chocie within a few months. That would make the club and its supporters look weak, incinsere and foolish, without giving us any guarantee of future success.

Don't think that if we fired Moyes today, his replacement would suddenly turn things round and we'd be fine. The experience of every other club tells us that the more likely scenario is that he becomes just the first of a constant stream of failed managers.
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You would think if the football was better we would be getting better results. The football we are playing is impacting on the results. Do we have the players to play better football is for yet another thread.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
You would think if the football was better we would be getting better results. The football we are playing is impacting on the results. Do we have the players to play better football is for yet another thread.
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I don't think it is for another thread... if we don't have the players to play better football, then there's defintiely no point firing him at the moment.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I don't think it is for another thread... if we don't have the players to play better football, then there's defintiely no point firing him at the moment.
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Of course we have the players to play better football. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
 
Brophs said:
If this forum had been around when Fergie was hired you'd have had people saying "Why are we hiring some no mark? Yeah, he's won some leagues but it's only Scotland. And he won then Cup Winners Cup, not the European Cup. Why didn't we hire Venables?"
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There's Straw-man, waiting in the sky....He'd like to make an point, but he knows he cannot try.
 
Sir A1ex said:
If he does, can we register Fergie as assistant manager and stick him on the sidelines barking out abuse for a couple of matches?
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Let the resident Caf eManagers have a crack at it. 3-2-1-2-1-2 formation with false centre backs, a reverse goalie overlapping 2 1/2, 3 1/2 fullbacks, a number 8/4 style defensive creative holder in the middle and two inside strikers up top. Easy.
 
Mockney said:
There's Straw-man, waiting in the sky....He'd like to make an point, but he knows he cannot try.
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Straw man my hole. It's a simple fact that fans judge managers before the arrive, or before they've had time to fail at the job. None of which is suggesting that Moyes will necessarily turn out the same as Fergie.
 
Brophs said:
Straw man my hole. It's a simple fact that fans judge managers before the arrive, or before they've had time to fail at the job. None of which is suggesting that Moyes will necessarily turn out the same as Fergie.
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This is true and the narrative is fed by everything, regardless. Today on the radio in one breath a radio presenter bemoaned the lack of continuity with new backroom staff and also poured scorn on Robbo being around the training ground.
 
Brophs said:
Straw man my hole. It's a simple fact that fans judge managers before the arrive, or before they've had time to fail at the job. None of which is suggesting that Moyes will necessarily turn out the same as Fergie.
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So, the made up Caf poster who dismissed Fergie's trophy haul to make your point about Moyes wasn't a strawman?
 
Sir A1ex said:
Good point. we definitely shouldn't discuss anything anybody said before the internet, as there's no way to use the quote function.
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Eh?

If you can't make your point without using a patent strawman, then your point isn't very good. Frankly I think using Fergie as a bullet proof vest for Moyes doesn't work. Or at the least is a poorly thought out argument.

The Fergie situation was so different as to not really be applicable. He took over a club fourth from bottom who hadn't won the league in 19 years. A club with a debilitating drinking culture and a poor youth system. The reasons he deserved time aren't the same ones Moyes does. People imagining time as a mystical constant of success because Fergie was given it is not remotely sensible IMO. It's perfectly fair to say that Liverpool's decline was due to giving their bad managers too much time. Souness & Evans were both there for 3-4 years.

As it happens I agree that Moyes deserves time (to at least built a team in a summer transfer window) but I disagree sacking him if this season ends without improvement would be analogous with Chelsea or Madrid sacking proven winners. It wouldn't.
 
Mockney said:
So, the made up Caf poster who dismissed Fergie's trophy haul to make your point about Moyes wasn't a strawman?
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Given that my obvious intention wasn't to make a point about Moyes, but rather the fact that the only difference is the visibility and accessibility of those views that I believe we're held by real fans, no.
 
When we went 2-1 down, there was a shot of Moyes slumped in his seat doing naff all. That shot will stay in my memory when looking back at Moyes' time here.
 
UnitedBoy said:
When we went 2-1 down, there was a shot of Moyes slumped in his seat doing naff all. That shot will stay in my memory when looking back at Moyes' time here.
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A lot of what a manager does is before kick off. If they are playing the way they are because he told them to then he has to go now. If they are playing like that despite what he tells them, I can understand his frustration. But saying that, it's TV, like Bobby's shake of the head, it can be portrayed as much more meaningful than it is.
 
Brophs said:
If this forum had been around when Fergie was hired you'd have had people saying "Why are we hiring some no mark? Yeah, he's won some leagues but it's only Scotland. And he won then Cup Winners Cup, not the European Cup. Why didn't we hire Venables?"
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I think that's stretching it. Moyes' lack of success is a valid concern.
 
UnitedBoy said:
When we went 2-1 down, there was a shot of Moyes slumped in his seat doing naff all. That shot will stay in my memory when looking back at Moyes' time here.
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Also the shot of Bobby Charlton shaking his head in the direction of Fergie, gave me the impression they are not happy too whether that is with Moyes or the fact we lost or even both remains to be seen.
 
Mockney said:
Eh?

If you can't make your point without using a patent strawman, then your point isn't very good.

The Fergie situation was so different as to not really be applicable. He took over a club fourth from bottom who hadn't won the league in 19 years. A club with a debilitating drinking culture and a poor youth system. The reasons he deserved time aren't the same ones Moyes does. People imagining time as a mystical constant because Fergie was given it is not remotely sensible IMO. It's perfectly fair to say that Liverpool's decline was due to giving their bad managers too much time. Souness & Evans were both there for 3-4 years.

As it happens I agree that Moyes deserves time, but I disagree sacking him if this season ends without improvement would be analogous with Chelsea or Madrid sacking proven winners. It wouldn't.
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It is that simple that I don't see how people can't understand that. Chelsea sacked Mourinho after 3.5 years when he won 2 League Titles (after half a century or so) and were still fighting in all competitions. Ancelotti was sacked on his second season when they finished second on the league and reached the quarters of UCL (in the previous year he won the league and the Cup). Madrid sacked Del Bosque after he won the league because he 'only' reached the semi of UCL. They sacked Capello on the season they won the league after 4 years (the season Del Bosques was sacked). They sacked Pellegrini on his first season cause he didn't won the title and got 'only' 96 points on the league.

Sacking Moyes now - or in the summer if things don't improve - isn't even remotely similar to that madness. It is similar to Liverpool sacking Hodgson, Bayern sacking Klinsmann or Inter sacking Benitez. All of them were justified decisions that in one way or another payed dividends.
 
If we look like this in May, then he has to go. I'm not one for sacking, but I need to see something that indicates improvement. This window is his chance. Unless of course there is no more money and he was hired to keep a side in the division on a shoestring. In which case, he's our man.
 
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