Moyes So Far!
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Add to that, Inter's main team (that who was on final) was on average around 3 years older than United's main 11 players of last year. And the depth on it. Mourinho won the Champions with 15 players or so, while we constantly used all the team.
Also, Leonardo fixed things on the league and Inter made a return against Bayern (to get humiliated by Schalke anyway though).
Actually we were pretty tumescent after the Madrid game in March, and if we all look at the situation without bias, like we were last season, deep down we know we weren't very good last season. We were occasionally, like against Madrid, but in general not really. Yeah, whatever, Benitez is actually a good manager but you keep on believing he isn't.
No. I'm just curious whether it has happened before.
I dont understand half of you lot. So far this season you have blamed the players, the board, the fans and our ex staff just to excuse moyes shortcomings. All for some deluded concept of loyalty. Look at thr players you guys want sold, their medals the amount of games they have played for the club and compare it to moyes record. Show some support for those players ffs.
Sacking moyes won't make us a lesser team, leave this more than a club bs to barca. If someone sucks at their job they deserve the sack. He would have been sacked at every other top club and there is a reason for that. Not all those chairmen fans are deluded.
Oh and has any manager turned it around after such a disappointment? Seeing as that's the only argument in his favour. Ship out half the team and give him time. It will work.
Sacking moyes won't make us a lesser team, leave this more than a club bs to barca. If someone sucks at their job they deserve the sack. He would have been sacked at every other top club and there is a reason for that. Not all those chairmen fans are deluded.
Oh and has any manager turned it around after such a disappointment? Seeing as that's the only argument in his favour. Ship out half the team and give him time. It will work.
They lost the only manager they ahve knows, so it is important that the next manager to be any good. The last line contradicts you by a bit, all Everton players have either been signed or promoted by Moyes, so while SAF was here 15 years before Moyes went there, still that doesn't change that for players (be it United's or Everton's) they only knew life under that manager.
Ironically enough you are mentioning only the players in decline. What about De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Evans, Smalling, Fabio, Cleverley *, Kagawa, Januzaj, Welbeck and Hernandez who supposedly should be improving. Doesn't that count?
* Screw him, he's a bit shit anyway
I think we lost three in a row on 2001.
Our general play wasn't exciting but we comfortably won the title. I'm not sure what your point is. Going from wining the league by 10 points to this shit is a pretty drastic and emphatic fall, no matter what you think our "actual" quality last season was.
Benitez was good at Valencia and at times at Liverpool. He was clearly shit at inter though. So yeah whatever indeed.
While I think there's slightly more to it than that, I do agree it's amusing to see how many fans who last year wouldn't hear a word against our squad suddenly decide the "correct way" to support United this season is to call all our players shit.
Big personalities need to be replaced by big personality. That counts for Mourinho as much as it does Fergie.
When players are used to someone that is larger than life, someone who uses the siege mentality and makes them feel like its them vs the world and then someone else comes in who isn't like that and who breaks that (and Rafa did at Inter, remember Materazzi and Sniejder's quotes about his coldness?) it can shatter a team.
Moyes' comments about the team early on, the public way we conducted ourselves in the summer, its all broken that sense of fortress Old Trafford where everything was kept in house, where it was us vs the world...
Thats just how it seems to me anyway.
When players are used to someone that is larger than life, someone who uses the siege mentality and makes them feel like its them vs the world and then someone else comes in who isn't like that and who breaks that (and Rafa did at Inter, remember Materazzi and Sniejder's quotes about his coldness?) it can shatter a team.
Moyes' comments about the team early on, the public way we conducted ourselves in the summer, its all broken that sense of fortress Old Trafford where everything was kept in house, where it was us vs the world...
Thats just how it seems to me anyway.
It's also amusing that the resident t0p reds blindly defend the Chosen One while viciously insulting the very players who gave us so many great memories.
If only Barca did the right thing all those years ago and sided with Rijkaard and sold Xavi & co after that season, we'd probably be sitting on at least 5 CL wins by now.
Chelsea should have sold Drogba on Scolari era (and resold him with all other players on AVB era). France's decision to stick with Domenech was justified too.
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I agree that thr blame lies with both as one party is never to blame but getting rid of moyes is a cheaper and better alternative for me. Rather than rebuilding the whole team and then realizing moyes is shit. All of them are winners so I wonder how moyes defensive first mentality sits with them.
Moyes. I think needed to make an instant impact. If he had more players would have follows him. Now doubts about his management have to be creeping in. As compared to the players he has won very little.
Didnt think this post went through as net wa being funny. Made a similar one above.
I agree that thr blame lies with both as one party is never to blame but getting rid of moyes is a cheaper and better alternative for me. Rather than rebuilding the whole team and then realizing moyes is shit. All of them are winners so I wonder how moyes defensive first mentality sits with them.
Moyes. I think needed to make an instant impact. If he had more players would have follows him. Now doubts about his management have to be creeping in. As compared to the players he has won very little.
Exactly, the right thing to do is to stick with the manager regardless of his shortcomings.
Am probably exaggerating a bit but that's the only argument I have seen from most of the posters. We are united, we dont sack managers. Do you want us to be like Chelsea, etc etc.
What's annoying/funny is that it's the same posters who are now calling the majority of our players shit who were having a heart attack at the thought of a weaker league being one of the reasons for our success last year.
Also, I read a lot here that we dont know what's happening behind the scenes but the players do. And their reaction to moyes is there for all to see.
I don't get the whole 'keep a manager regardless of how he does' belief we have going on here. SAF was in the job for so long because he did so well at it. Its a very volatile industry that we're in. Big mistakes are instantly capitalised by your competition and getting back to the elite level can become extremely difficult, even for the greatest of managers. Seriously lads, what makes our policy on managers so much better than the likes of Bayern and Barca? I can fully understand not trying to turn into a chelsea or a real but those aforementioned clubs give chances to those managers who do well at the job. You earn what you get in this life and us bending the rules isn't going to get us anywhere.
We can give Moyes the money, but Dalgish has proven that money in the wrong hands is basically useless. Judging by Moyes' first big money signing if I were the Glazers I'd be reluctant to give him and exorbitant amount of money to spend.
This club is in a precarious position. The squad isn't as good as some will have you belief. Its riddled with problems in basically every position apart from the keeper. We need someone who's capable of coming in and making changes and so far Moyes hasn't looked like that man from the very beginning. From when he came in he waxed lyrical about our squad and so on, and only realised some way into the season that it really isn't as good as advertised.
We aren't a club that can do what they want and have the money to sort it out despite how drastic the conditions. We have a budget, our owners are shrewd business who are in it to win, not lose. We continue this holier than thou attitude we're going to find ourselves heading in the wrong direction. The only way for us to be part of the elite is to manage the club better than everyone else and if we don't do that then we'll suffer the consequences.
The mans gotta go, never the right man for the job and with each passing day this is being proven. Even if we do stumble on some positive form I don't see him leading us to a lot of success.
We can give Moyes the money, but Dalgish has proven that money in the wrong hands is basically useless. Judging by Moyes' first big money signing if I were the Glazers I'd be reluctant to give him and exorbitant amount of money to spend.
This club is in a precarious position. The squad isn't as good as some will have you belief. Its riddled with problems in basically every position apart from the keeper. We need someone who's capable of coming in and making changes and so far Moyes hasn't looked like that man from the very beginning. From when he came in he waxed lyrical about our squad and so on, and only realised some way into the season that it really isn't as good as advertised.
We aren't a club that can do what they want and have the money to sort it out despite how drastic the conditions. We have a budget, our owners are shrewd business who are in it to win, not lose. We continue this holier than thou attitude we're going to find ourselves heading in the wrong direction. The only way for us to be part of the elite is to manage the club better than everyone else and if we don't do that then we'll suffer the consequences.
The mans gotta go, never the right man for the job and with each passing day this is being proven. Even if we do stumble on some positive form I don't see him leading us to a lot of success.
All I've heard is how great these players are and how they coasted to the title last season. If they're that great then why can't they perform? I'm pretty sure that Moyes isn't telling them to go out there and play like shit. If they're not up for the fight, which I'm guessing is probably only a small number at most, then they know where the door is.
Moyes had vastly inferior Everton players playing better than this, what excuse do our players have for not even showing any fight? These guys are supposed to be winners and some top quality footballers. They have no excuse.
I'm guessing you'll come back with some bollocks about Moyes needing to inspire them etc, but thats bullshit. If these players don't have all the motivation they need from their own pride right now then there's something wrong. Any bloke with a pair of bollocks would be giving it their all right now, regardless of how much they dislike their manager.
I've mentioned most of them, I said previously that De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Evans and Smalling are the only players in this squad who don't have question marks over them, only De Gea is currently world class though. Januzaj is an 18 year old kid, the fact he's even first choice shows how utterly shit our other options are. What about Fabio? It seems like he isn't good enough, he was fit at times with QPR who finished bottom and Redknapp preferred Bosingwa over him. I love Danny, hopefully he becomes the player some of us think he can, and he's improved this season, but I don't see what relevance he has. He's 22, nowhere near his peak, and Hernandez has got a lot of weaknesses in his game, again I don't understand your point? All you're doing is proving that this side is full of younger players years from their peak and older players who are past their peak, Rooney age wise is an exception but the Rooney today isn't as good as the Rooney of a few years ago in my opinion.
And Moyes is good, he proved that at Everton, whether he's good enough is the question nobody knows the answer to yet. And Moyes wasn't a sporting institution was he? He wasn't a figure who will go down in history. Those players never won anything under him, they never experienced what players under Ferguson did, they owed everything to Ferguson, he enabled them to achieve so much, it's not really the same as finishing 7th a few times.
And then came to life again for like 26 odd years?
Most jobs sensibly come with a probation period so you can quickly get rid of someone if they prove to be disastrous and not up to the job. There is a reason for that - it's very difficult to know if someone can do a job before they try, and usually it is better to correct a mistake as soon as possible. The longer you leave it, the more entrenched the problem will become.
Your material seems to be better than mine judging by the amount of laughs everyone has had from you tonight.
It's amazing how incredibly easy it has been this season for the opposition to shatter the confidence and belief in the team. We are now one which is completely drained of confidence and conviction in what it is trying to achieve.
Also, I watched the class of 92 movie a while back and one section stuck with me. It's when all those guys were comparing what was the best excuse sir Alex gave for dropping them. And Gary remembers how he was told that he was really needed for a game in two weeks so was being rested so he could prepare for that.
Compare this with moyes completely freezing some of the players and you get an idea why performance levels are dropping.
Compare this with moyes completely freezing some of the players and you get an idea why performance levels are dropping.
So, we go again to the 'a good team can play even without a manager' bullshit that has been proven false every time.
If the manager isn't good enough, even the best players will seriously underachieve. It is a fact and I can give you as many statistics that support it. I used Barca before, what about Juve under Conte versus Juve before. Or how Roma from title challengers became a bit shit after Capello left them. You may deny it, of course, but the players won't play well under a not that good manager.
Everton had better players for Moyes tactics than us. Kagawa is a better No.10 than Fellaini, but Fellaini is a better No.10 for Moyes tactics than Kagawa.
You also said, if the majority of them, not only a small number of them. If they are only a few of them who don't want Moyes and their are ruining the balance then of course it makes sense to show them the door. However as you said on that post, if the majority of them (also it depends who are them) are against Moyes, then he should go.
Also (not a dig on you but genuinely I don't remember), what did you thought about the quality of our players last season?
Ok so what about the players that are playing regularly? What's their excuse? Or are they underperforming because of how Fabio and Zaha have been treated?
That isn't true though, player threads were constantly being bumped full of criticisms. Carrick, Rafael, Evans, De Gea and RVP aside, everyone got slagged off. And I'm not sure if people are calling players shit, I'm certainly not, I just think most of our key players are now are in decline. Do you disagree that Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand and Carrick, all 32 or older, have perhaps given as much as they can give? Do you disagree that Valencia, Young and Nani aren't good enough to be first choice at a club wanting to compete at the level we do? And that Kagawa has been a big disappointment? I was on the fence last week, and criticised Moyes quite a bit, but now I've decided I want him to be given the chance to completely overhaul the squad, I don't think there's a manager on the planet who isn't retired that would win the title with it.
Will respond to this tomorrow. Its 6 am here and am off to sleep. In short our tactics have been horrible(pass to Valencia-cross it in), wrong player selections (playing CBS at fbs) , poor transfer window and most of them have lost faith in moyes.
Last season I said that any manager that was to inherit this team would have problems. A year down the line ans look at what's happening. I also said that Fergies influence was probably worth 15 points a season alone with this current group of players.
With regards to the rest of your post, I can give you examples of teams that have performed without a top manager. I'm not really concerned about that though, because I'm judging this situation based on my beliefs prior to the appointment of Moyes. I'm not going to pretend to know what Moyes is asking the players to do or guess as to what players like Moyes. All I know is that these players are performing well below what we've seen in the past and I don't believe it can all be blamed on the manager.
People want to talk about the amount of long balls we play but I don't think it's necessarily tactical. For years we have struggled on the ball when under pressure from the opposition. There was a thread about how we'd set up if we were playing against United and that was the first on the list for me and many others. This is playing a large part in the amount of long balls we're playing, not the fact that Everton used to hit long balls to Fellaini all the time. feck, we've even signed Fellaini and I've not even seen us resort to this as our go-to tactic.
I understand people wanting to avoid putting all the blame on the players (because it obviously isn't purely their fault) but why the feck are some people completely absolving them of any blame and pouring it all on Moyes? It's a fact the players have been shite this season. We've not been great for a few seasons now and lo and behold losing the greatest fecking manager of all time has obviously taken a toll on the team but that's still no excuse for some of the dire performances we've been seeing. Fletch, Januzaj and Rooney stick out as players who are giving it their best to crack on under what is clearly going to be a hard time but the entire club, board right down to playing staff has to shoulder some of the blame for what's going on.
All this "no it wasn't me it was him" blame diverting bollocks is what went on at the BBC and let Saville molest children and get away with it. If you're firmly in either camp (player's fault / Moyes' fault) and refuse to accept that the blame should be shared you are also directly responsible for paedophilia. I hope you're all fecking happy.
All this "no it wasn't me it was him" blame diverting bollocks is what went on at the BBC and let Saville molest children and get away with it. If you're firmly in either camp (player's fault / Moyes' fault) and refuse to accept that the blame should be shared you are also directly responsible for paedophilia. I hope you're all fecking happy.
It's a good point, when you look back at the old tape when Edwards was asked why they signed SAF, it was because he was the outstanding candidate, he achieved so much in Scotland with aberdeen, it's like going to spain now and winning trophies consistently with deportivo and breaking up the madrid \ baraca power, look at Moyes's cv, nothing. You can only assume that their thinking was that the right squad was in place so all it took was the best (long term and loyal) candidate to come in and take it over and continue on the success. Listening to some of the SAF interviews immediately after he retired backs that up, he "challenged" the squad to prove themselves as greats and go on and win 3 leagues in a row, which suggests the club believed immediate success was possible. There is a quality squad there to challenge, tweaks needed granted, but enough to at least stay "relevant" amongst change rather than a joke. Tonight was another in a string of poor attempts at creating chances in matches, BUT the first time I have heard Moyes afterwards focus solely on the ref as the cause of another failure, which followed a half empty OT even when it was 1-1 against swansea, it's bad. I have seen Rooney, RVP, Vidic and Carrick in this team, our talismen, World class players, and it still looks shit, people waiting on signings to change it are deluded.
Except of course, that simply doesn't happen any more. There's no analogue to that sort of situation these days, the gaps are just too big. I very much doubt we'll see a SAF's Aberdeen like achievement again unless a lot changes in football. I'm sure Fergie and the board genuinely believed Moyes was the best candidate to take the club forward in terms of managerial ability and general approach to the job (i.e. not a bell end or someone likely to ditch the job after 4 years). Potentially they got it wrong but it's too early to tell that for sure.
I don't see it as delusion more the only bit of hope we have of it turning things around. We can put ourselves in a false sense of security by believing Moyes' words that he will "turn it around", but the truth is there aren't any signs that he can accomplish this. Perhaps with the return of players like Rooney or van Persie we will see a resurgence from the team, but how do we know they will come back with fighting spirit and drag us through games like they have done this season and last?
The fact of the matter is: Moyes is very unlikely to be sacked this season. A signing of top quality would perhaps have the same effect that Ozil did on Arsenal, and that is what people are holding on for, because a change in management won't be done at this stage.
All fair points to be fair. Maybe the truth is somewhere on the middle (of your points and mine) and as of now it seems that we will put blame on different actors either because of our different opinions on the matter (for example I still think that our squad is the second best squad on the league, though it has some big problems) or where our loyalties hold.
Pass to Valencia and cross: We've played like this for a while. We've put together a team that relies solely on width. Our CM's are seemingly there to keep us solid and supply the wingers. Even Scholes used to feed that right wing constantly every game. The difference is that he was a more gifted footballer, he could put that ball on the toe of Valencia steaming down the wing. Carrick and Cleverly can't do that. Thats why Valencia is receiving the ball stood still on the half way line and can't do feck all from that position.
CB's at RB: Nothing new. Fergie did it a lot with Smalling and Jones. Previously with the likes of O'Shea. It's annoying, I agree, but we've one actual RB that seems to be injured all the time. There's obviously reasons why Fabio isn't trusted as Fergie didn't play him much either. Moyes obviously isn't averse to playing RB's as he plays Rafael.
Poor transfer window: Fair enough. It still doesn't excuse some of the performances we've seen.
Lost the dressing room: Judging by what players like Fletcher and Rooney have said, I don't think this is entirely true. Whether some players don't want to play for him is unknown. Your guess is as good as mine.
Fergie played Fabio in a champions league final. That is trust.
Following season he started getting injured. Then was loaned out to QPR to get games under his belt and fitness.
Following season he started getting injured. Then was loaned out to QPR to get games under his belt and fitness.
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