Moyes So Far!

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I bet there's more that I've forgotten. The common ground is they all won something in the first 10 years of their careers, regardless of how shit the club they started out at was. Sir Alex did it too. Ole has done it. Even bloody Benitez has. Moyes hasn't even managed to fluke a League Cup at Everton. Wigan managed the FA Cup and they have a fanbase that would struggle to fill a phone booth and an even smaller budget than Everton. I can't see anything in Moyes so far that says he has the ability to win silverware, barring the free Community Shield that SAF practically gifted him.

That's an interesting list you put together.

One thing that comes out of it is that many of them got to a certain level with a team and then stepped up to the next challenge - usually to the next grade up, a club with enough money to compete at the top. Some of them moved abroad to get more experience, a bigger club. They chased trophies as well as lifting their teams to their best level. That's where the equation: loyalty Vs lack of ambition, kicks in.

It's actually what bothered me about Moyes. No trophies for Everton, not a League Cup or much to look at in the Europa - OK, the League was beyond then, they didn't have the squad depth to fight in Europe, luck's a significant factor in Cups. All fair enough.But still, he was the one who stayed there.

He never tried to make the leap to a club that could win things and yet now he's jumped straight to a club where he has to win things. You wonder if that spark of ambition, aggression, ruthlessness to get to the top is really there or is it just dogged determination. Fortunately SAF knows him better than I do, and he's been hiding that extra something, waiting for us - lets hope he's read him right.
 
Perhaps Moyes thought that his loyalty would be seen as a very positive attribute when it came to being considered for a job he really wanted?
 
Perhaps Moyes thought that his loyalty would be seen as a very positive attribute when it came to being considered for a job he really wanted?


Indeed. He also had a very good thing going at Everton and he was respected throughout the league for his work there.

It didn't hurt that he was also one of the highest paid managers in the league - IIRC he was on around £5million per year
 
I wonder what would really happen if we end up without a trophy and end up in 7th or 8th place in the league.

It's an interesting time to support United because now we're really going to find out what the Glazers are all about
 
Separated this into the three different points you make.

1 - Nonsense. The inability of Everton to crack the Top 4 has nothing to do with lacking a 'crafty manager' - more than anything else it is down to their finances. They have hit a clear ceiling which won't be broken through on their current budget and that is a fact. Martinez is gaining plaudits for his current successes at Everton but he won't break the Top 4 - in fact I would be surprised if he equals - let alone beats - Moyes' 6th place finish last season.

A comparison to show what I am talking about. Since Moyes took over in 2002 this is his net spend compared with Liverpool, a team he finished higher than last season,

Everton - £22 million
Liverpool - £268 million

Liverpool have spent over ten times as much as Moyes in the period he has been at Everton. Yet you want to blame Everton's inablity to crack the Top 4 on not being 'crafty'... Really?

2) This point links with number 1) as more than half of those managers were at clubs capable of winning things. Capello winning things with AC Milan has no relevance to Moyes' career at Everton. No shit the manager of AC Milan will win some trophies. It's the same with Van Gaal at Ajax, Guardiola, Ancelotti or Hiddink taking over the reigning Champions in PSV. None of those are good examples at all - though they all did great jobs its not at all comparable to Moyes.

3) This is a fair point. The lack of a Carling Cup/FA Cup win is a clear blotch on his record.


1) Everton cracked the top four in 2005, albeit getting robbed of the Champions League because of Liverpool's Fluke of the Century. Getting into the top four has become more difficult now that Manchester City add to the list of contenders, but fact of the matter is that Everton look far more likely to take the step up now that Martinez has taken over, even though I'll agree with you that doing that is nigh-on impossible with their current budget. Moyes' record against the top clubs at Everton speaks for itself. He was great at getting results against lower sides and winning the points necessary for a high finish, but his style of football isn't good enough to take points from those ahead of him on the table.

It's difficult to say what Everton will do in the 18 remaining games, but they have a four point buffer in terms of staying top six and sure as hell look more likely to finish above us than vice versa based on current form. They're also just one point behind Liverpool in 4th. I think a 5th place finish is looking likely for them now, in arguably the most competitive Premier League ever. Fifth is more than Moyes has managed since City became filthy rich and started gelling as a team. Ironically the team that has gone down for Everton to be bumped up is the team Moyes has taken over. In any case, Martinez has the look of a manager who isn't content with finishing around 6th or 7th every year, which is more than I can say about Moyes.

Liverpool's inability to get results that reflect their budget is as much down to the stream of piss they've had managing them. Benitez was a bit hot and cold while Hodgson and Dalglish were just shite. Lo and behold, now that they've got a manager who looks even remotely capable, they're back to challenging the top four.

2) A lot of those players were at good clubs right from the beginning, but the top clubs don't give the job to anyone without them having done something to get the vote of confidence. They also started winning trophies right away with their clubs. Moyes is doing the opposite of that at his first big club.

I also made a point of saying that those managers won something in their first 10 years regardless of how poor their first club was. Even if they didn't win trophies at Reggiana or Nancy or Mainz, they quickly proved themselves good enough to manage great clubs and took the step up quite early in their careers, all winning trophies not only within their first 10 years, but also well before the age of 50. Why hasn't Moyes gotten the vote of confidence from a bigger club than Everton, considering the great job he's done there? If SAF and Moyes hadn't both come from the same town in Scotland he still wouldn't be a top club. I'm fairly sure of that, having read SAF's biography. That shows me that Moyes' abilities as a manager are too limited to merit any sort of top job. His performance with us so far hasn't done much to change my opinion.

3) Nothing to say here. We agree.
 
1) Everton cracked the top four in 2005, albeit getting robbed of the Champions League because of Liverpool's Fluke of the Century.

No, they were knocked out in the qualifiers by Villarreal who went on to reach the semi-finals. Liverpool had nothing to do with it.
 
Has anyone actually got the figures for Everton's wage bill relative to Liverpool, or other clubs? Wages tend to be a better barometre than net spend. Which is not to say the stats Theon posted above are not interesting.
 
1) Everton cracked the top four in 2005, albeit getting robbed of the Champions League because of Liverpool's Fluke of the Century. Getting into the top four has become more difficult now that Manchester City add to the list of contenders, but fact of the matter is that Everton look far more likely to take the step up now that Martinez has taken over, even though I'll agree with you that doing that is nigh-on impossible with their current budget. Moyes' record against the top clubs at Everton speaks for itself. He was great at getting results against lower sides and winning the points necessary for a high finish, but his style of football isn't good enough to take points from those ahead of him on the table.

It's difficult to say what Everton will do in the 18 remaining games, but they have a four point buffer in terms of staying top six and sure as hell look more likely to finish above us than vice versa based on current form. They're also just one point behind Liverpool in 4th. I think a 5th place finish is looking likely for them now, in arguably the most competitive Premier League ever. Fifth is more than Moyes has managed since City became filthy rich and started gelling as a team. Ironically the team that has gone down for Everton to be bumped up is the team Moyes has taken over. In any case, Martinez has the look of a manager who isn't content with finishing around 6th or 7th every year, which is more than I can say about Moyes.

Liverpool's inability to get results that reflect their budget is as much down to the stream of piss they've had managing them. Benitez was a bit hot and cold while Hodgson and Dalglish were just shite. Lo and behold, now that they've got a manager who looks even remotely capable, they're back to challenging the top four.


You haven't addressed the point. You said that Moyes did not take Everton up a level from their top 6/7 status because he wasn't crafty enough, or in general not good enough a manager. Do you still stand by that, despite me showing you the spending required to get there?

I think it is incredible if you do and you need to get some perspective. It looks like you are just looking to criticise Moyes, the third paragraph for example dismisses the relevant, actual comparison with Liverpool as if it means nothing when in reality it is a great emphasis of the challenge Moyes faced in making Everton a the Top 4 side.

You don't like Liverpool because all their managers were a "streak of piss"? Look at Chelsea or look at Spurs.

Take City as another example. They came 14th in 2006/07 before cracking the top 4 in 2010/11. To make that jump they spent £400million... £400 fecking million. Yet you want Moyes to do it on a net spent of £22million over the whole decade he was at the club. Laughable.

Disagree on Martinez getting 5th. Everton won't come higher than United, and I doubt they will beat Spurs either. But we'll see.
 
It is very interesting how different are opinions on Moyes job at Everton. Some hail him as being very succesful while some others dismiss the idea that he did that well there.

Looking at them before Moyes, they were a team who was underachieving (for their status and their finances) and was in constant danger of relegation. After Moyes came, they fight against relegation only one time, finished one time in top 4 which was a great achievement (though it was worth nothing considering that they got beaten by Villareal for UCL and then by Bucurest IIRC on UEFA) and if I am not mistaken they under Moyes finished on average on eighth position. Which isn't that far off when Everton was supposed to finish. They have the eighth biggest wage on the league though they were much worse when it came to transfers (probably somewhere on 12-15 positions). That he did a very good job on Everton is undeniable. That he was very good at regenerating teams is also undeniable. That his teams were strong, and at home were difficult to beat with very astute tactics is also a fact. However this can't even be compared with what the likes of Mourinho, Klopp, Guardiola and the others on that list did. They were winners, Moyes is not. Will he win or not titles is something that we can speculate, but until now you can't compare him with the people who have more Cups than Moyes has away wins against top teams.

I also think that his style of play wasn't good at Everton (a thing that even our resident Everton fans agreed years ago) and while Martinez is playing much better, it is impossible that Everton will get a four position finish on this or the next 10 years (unless they get a sugar dady). That is not because Moyes/Martinez is not good enough, but because the finances of Everton are considerably lower than those of City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs. Every top 6 finish is a massive achievement for them considering the money they invest compared to the teams I mentioned, be it on wages or especially on transfers.

Also, his lack of success on Cups (which to be fair is extremely bad) will be held forever against him. While for us a Carling Cup isn't nothing, for Everton fans it would have been almost as winning UCL, simply because despite their name, they haven't won anything as long as they can remember. He spectacularly failed there. As much as he failed on Europe. The loyalty is a good and precious thing, but I am not sure that Moyes had any choice on that. I don't remember any of the team I mentioned before (except us) being interested on him and I don't remember a report that a big team from outside of England was interested on him. He is loyal, he never criticized the owner but let's also look at the other side, where he could have gone if he left Everton? Bolton, Blackburn or perpaps AZ Alkmaar. Sure as hell Madrid or Barca weren't interested on him. I think that it isn't very difficult being loyal if there isn't a bigger club asking for your services, and as far as I know they were not. I also don't think that he knew that United will choose him after SAF sometime will retire, so I don't suppose he was waiting for this job. That it was his dream job, that is pretty sure, but I doubt he would have refused Spurs or Chelsea if they offered him the chance.
 
Is the Cups thing so important though? I mean, people rave about Martinez (for example) but he got his team bloody relegated, fer Gawd's sake...
 
Eh? They only stuck with him when he was winning. It started to go sour when he lost the league.

Yeah and maybe if they stuck with him, he could have repeated his success. Barca also stuck with Guardiola which brought them success however bring in a decent manager would keep Barca in top 3 anyway because the competition is not that great in that league.
 
Is the Cups thing so important though? I mean, people rave about Martinez (for example) but he got his team bloody relegated, fer Gawd's sake...


Yep, with all our resources we've not won the FA cup in ten years, always need a bit of luck in the cup. Plus end of the day whilst the fans would love a trophy no doubt finishing with Everton as high as he was, was probably more important for the club. They were always unlikely to get there but most recent years he had them pushing hard for that fourth CL spot which if they qualified would have been great for them.
 
Yep, with all our resources we've not won the FA cup in ten years, always need a bit of luck in the cup. Plus end of the day whilst the fans would love a trophy no doubt finishing with Everton as high as he was, was probably more important for the club. They were always unlikely to get there but most recent years he had them pushing hard for that fourth CL spot which if they qualified would have been great for them.


Is this true though? Is there a big difference on how fans would have feel if Everton finished 6th and Everton finished 8th. I guess that 90% of them would have preferred to finish on 8-10th position and get an FA/Carling Cup rather than finish on 6-7th position. Also, the difference on money between finishing 6th and 8th isn't that big on England. Of course going into extremes like finishing 6-7th or getting a Cup but being relegated is something else.

I als think that I have read somewhere that Kenwright said that he asked to Moyes to bring a Cup not a higher league finish, though if there is anything true on that I don't know.

And finally, we didn't won FA Cup on a decade because we were never interested that much on that. League and UCL was our priority. Everton wasn't fighting for title or UCL so getting an FA/Carling Cup was their only chance of getting some silverware.
 
Another article in the DT today.

Manchester United manager David Moyes told he can spend big to revive Premier League champions' hopes

David Moyes has the backing of the Glazer family to spend big in order to revive Manchester United in the wake of the FA Cup defeat to Swansea City




By Mark Ogden, Northern Football Correspondent
10:30PM GMT 06 Jan 2014

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David Moyes has been given free rein to dictate Manchester United’s transfer business this month, with the Old Trafford hierarchy handing the manager sole charge of club funds in an attempt to avoid a disastrous failure to qualify for the Champions League.
Despite a dreadful run of form that has left United in seventh position in the Premier League – five points adrift of Champions League qualification – and endure a third-round exit in the FA Cup, United’s owners, the Glazer family, remain fully supportive of Moyes and his decisions.

The Scot, who delivered a furious dressing down to his players following the FA Cup elimination at home against Swansea City on Sunday, admitted in the wake of United’s 2-1 defeat that it was “doubtful” he would add to his squad during the transfer window due to the difficulties of securing the best players in January.
But with Moyes yet to overcome a reputation for indecision and caution in the transfer market, forged during a decade of managing with budgetary restrictions at Everton, there is a desire within Old Trafford for the manager to adjust to a new reality of genuine financial muscle at United and embrace it by asserting the club’s heavyweight status.
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Although the Glazers back Moyes’s determination to target only top players with a long-term value to the club, the Americans have made it clear that no restrictions will be placed on his recruitment plans should he identify players he deems capable of improving his squad.
Moyes is keen to avoid the acquisition of players he does not consider to be top-class performers, but with some at United referring to the Scot being handed a ‘hospital pass’ by Sir Alex Ferguson with the squad he inherited, the former Everton manager has also been told that he will be backed should he feel the need to add experience and manpower to a squad ravaged by injuries and a loss of confidence.
Moyes is understood to have handed a list of priority targets to Ed Woodward, the executive vice-chairman, with the likes of Luke Shaw, Marco Reus, Eliaquim Mangala and Ilkay Gündogan all highlighted as players wanted by the manager, who regards the addition of players in their mid-20s as crucial in rectifying an imbalance in a squad loaded with players in their thirties and emerging youngsters.
There is an acceptance, shared by Moyes and Woodward, that most or all of those targets will prove hugely difficult to sign this month, with clubs reluctant to sell and some of the players keen to wait for the summer in order to assess United’s state of health at the end of the season.
With Moyes and Woodward being criticised by supporters following the outcome of the summer window, in which £27.5 million was spent on the under-performing Marouane Fellaini following failed attempts to sign Cesc Fabregas, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale, senior figures at United are keen to work quietly this month in an attempt to conclude deals behind the scenes.
But after identifying key weaknesses in the squad when he succeeded Ferguson last summer, Moyes believes his concerns are now being realised with four defeats in six home games during the past month highlighting the problems in the team.
The 50-year-old’s frustration with recent results and performances boiled over, with the manager warning players that many of them were fighting for their future at the club following Sunday’s defeat against Swansea.
At least 10 players are believed to face uncertainty beyond this summer, with Rio Ferdinand, Shinji Kagawa and Javier Hernández the most high-profile. Ryan Giggs, at 40, is also expected to depart the scene at the end of the season and become a full-time member of Moyes’s backroom team. The likes of Anderson, Fabio da Silva, Alexander Buttner, Federico Macheda and Bebe are also likely to be cleared off the wage bill.
Resolving the future of Wayne Rooney is an issue that will not be addressed until the closure of this transfer window, however, with neither the club nor the player making moves to instigate negotiations over a new contract this month.
With his contract due to expire in June 2015, a failure to qualify for the Champions League this season would leave United vulnerable to another summer of uncertainty over the 28-year-old, particularly with Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho ready to renew his efforts to sign the player after lodging two failed bids last summer.
It is understood, though, that United are prepared to allow the England forward to run his contract down in order to keep him at Old Trafford should they be involved in a battle to reclaim Champions League status next season, with the view being that retaining the player and risk losing him for nothing would make more financial sense than selling him without securing an adequate replacement.
Rooney is doubtful for the Capital One Cup semi-final first leg against Sunderland at the Stadium of Light on Tuesday due to an ongoing groin problem.
Robin van Persie, who has been restricted to two appearances in two months due to a series of injuries, will not figure on Wearside after only resuming light training following a period of fitness work at PSV Eindhoven in his native Holland

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...to-revive-Premier-League-champions-hopes.html
 
The more Moyes spends this month the more pressure he will be under to deliver not next season, but this. So if this article is accurate and the Glazers are basically saying do whatever it takes, it suggests to me they also see anything less than 4th this season as unacceptable. Time will tell. Ill still be surprised to see a huge amount of transfer activity in this window, but I hope Im wrong. I think SAF said he didnt like getting people in Jan because they dont settle in straight away but what I like about it is it means they hit the ground running next season - as opposed to getting someone in over the summer and then requiring a bedding in period until October / November time. Hopefully he can bring people in who will make an immediate impact, the good thing is we dont have to worry too much about people being cup tied because what we need people for is league games.
 
Ogden must be trolling with that tripe.

Christ!

"United currently have five centre-halves, but they are either injury-prone or too inexperienced to be trusted as regulars, so Moyes needs a fit and experienced defender to provide reliability.

Porto’s French defender Eliaquim Mangala is top of the list, but he is also interesting clubs in stronger positions that United, so he will be tough to get."

Mangala is 22....
 
Yeah and maybe if they stuck with him, he could have repeated his success. Barca also stuck with Guardiola which brought them success however bring in a decent manager would keep Barca in top 3 anyway because the competition is not that great in that league.

So your point is? Stick by Moyes and we'd finish 7th consistently.
 
"United currently have five centre-halves, but they are either injury-prone or too inexperienced to be trusted as regulars, so Moyes needs a fit and experienced defender to provide reliability.

Porto’s French defender Eliaquim Mangala is top of the list, but he is also interesting clubs in stronger positions that United, so he will be tough to get."

Mangala is 22....


It's such a dross of an article. :lol:
 
The team are not playing for him. After what Fletcher said I think everyone was entitled to expect a big response....not happened at all.
 
Staring yet another defeat in the face and he's sitting on the bench, wringing his hands whilst looking around like a lost child. Christ.

I want him to succeed so bad, but he just doesn't seem up for it.
 
Who fell behind 14 times last season but had RVP on fire to get us out of trouble not to mention had rivals in crisis and disarray. Now without Wazza and Rvp the vast majority of our squad is being shown up for what it is, mainly average.

Hate it when trolls attack MUFC like that. Support the team FFS.
 
Says the guy who came into the thread attacking Moyes. Support the manager, perhaps?

The players have done so much for MUFC in the past few years yet they are the ones who get attacked by the trolls. What has Moyes ever done?
 
Staring yet another defeat in the face and he's sitting on the bench, wringing his hands whilst looking around like a lost child. Christ.

I want him to succeed so bad, but he just doesn't seem up for it.


We all do mate, but it's surely becoming difficult for even the most stubborn of fans to see the light.
 
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