Moyes So Far!

[Stack]

Got sacked from Juventus after winning a title but not conviencing... In my books this a good example of why clubs should be paitent. However our blind faith in Moyes is not.

Blind faith?. Its only been 6 months, thats not long enough to have shown any patience.

 

[Ixion]

Do you really want to try and criticise his achievements with Everton?

It's a complete and utter turnaround - which was made, and sustained, with little investment.

Someone said he instantly turned them around. I was merely pointing out they finished 17th in his second season so it wasn't instant.

But I stand by that Everton are a top 10 club, thats exactly where they should be.

 

[Stack]

Well he finished finished 17th with 39 points, the lowest total in the club's history the following season.

And then turned that around to finish 4th, or are you conveniently ignoring that or the overall record he had at Everton compared to what went before???.

 

[Sixpence]

Do you really want to try and criticise his achievements with Everton?

It's a complete and utter turnaround - which was made, and sustained, with little investment.

Everton Pre Moyes,
97 - 15th
98 - 17th
99 - 14th
00 - 13th
01 - 16th
02 - 15th

Everton After Moyes,
03 - 7th
04 - 17th
05 - 4th
06 - 11th
07 - 6th
08 - 5th
09 - 5th
10 - 8th
11 - 7th
12 - 7th
13 - 6th

He turned them from perennial underachievers and threatened by relegation most seasons to one of the most hard-working and respected outfits in the league. They had 2 last day escapes in the 90's before he got there. Top flight longevity if you like but they were a fecking whisker from being relegated twice, in 94' and then in 98'.

There's that one 17th place which was poor, but look at how they responded the very next season, 4th. In what was the start of the traditional top 4's dominance of the Champions League scene. Some feat. He did a remarkable job at Everton, can't believe some are now doubting his work there based on how it's started at United for him, his work at Everton was absolutely stellar.

 

[Siorac]

Someone said he instantly turned them around. I was merely pointing out they finished 17th in his second season so it wasn't instant.

But I stand by that Everton are a top 10 club, thats exactly where they should be.

But it was an instant turnaround. He kept them up after he was appointed in March 2002 and then achieved their second best finish in the history of the PL. That the next season was a bit shit changes nothing.

Criticise him for what he'd doing now, there are so many things to find fault at. But his record at Everton isn't one of them.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

You're embarrassing yourself.

Really? he did end up 17th on his second full season though, he managed to keep Everton 7th for so many years is all everybody says,on a tight budget, but playing boring football,never managed to beat his biggest rival Liverpool has an awful record against the top 4 , never won a cup has no record in Europe, and as far as spending goes did he really spend that much less than the teams that finished below him?

 

[Sixpence]

Someone said he instantly turned them around. I was merely pointing out they finished 17th in his second season so it wasn't instant.

But I stand by that Everton are a top 10 club, thats exactly where they should be.

Your argument that is based on "history". If that's the case, Notts Forest are a top 10 club in England too.

 

[Mainoldo]

Its not completely blind though Moyes was in effect appointed by SAF, while we can judge his motives (they are both Scottish, have similar upbringings....) I don't think we cant question his judgement to ensure United is left in the right hands.

Sure we can look at SAFs long list of failures in the transfer window and say hes made mistakes but he appears to be a good judge of character and I honestly feel this appointment was not made for the here and now but for the future. SAF would often say when giving youth a chance that the media/fans don't see United 3-4 years down the line but that's a job for the manager. He probably felt the same way about Moyes

That's the only reason why anyone believes. That goes for you and anyone else here. I haven't seen a good argument to suggest otherwise. If he wasn't SAF man and he came out tomorrow saying "I didn't have a say in who our next manager was". We would all want him sacked.

I still can't for the life of me understand why we believe losing 6 games in the Premier League in January sitting 7 or 8th where ever we are is treated so calmly.

3-4 years down the line? what do we need a new youth policy? is the structure of the club wrong?

 

[Stack]

Really? he did end up 17th on his second full season though, he managed to keep Everton 7th for so many years is all everybody says,on a tight budget, but playing boring football,never managed to beat his biggest rival Liverpool has an awful record against the top 4 , never won a cup has no record in Europe, and as far as spending goes did he really spend that much less than the teams that finished below him?

I am embarrassed for you. Cringeworthy.

 

[Ixion]

But it was an instant turnaround. He kept them up after he was appointed in March 2002 and then achieved their second best finish in the history of the PL. That the next season was a bit shit changes nothing.

Criticise him for what he'd doing now, there are so many things to find fault at. But his record at Everton isn't one of them.

How is saying Everton are a top 10 side criticising Moyes? They were winning the league when Sir Alex first came here, they're a big side and should be in the top half.

 

[Mainoldo]

Blind faith?. Its only been 6 months, thats not long enough to have shown any patience.

We are not going to finish 4th I don't need another 4 months to confirm this.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

And then turned that around to finish 4th, or are you conveniently ignoring that or the overall record he had at Everton compared to what went before???.

No I was responding to a post that said that he immediately turned them around.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

I am embarrassed for you. Cringeworthy.

Yeah like I fecking care what you think.

 

[Siorac]

How is saying Everton are a top 10 side criticising Moyes? They were winning the league when Sir Alex first came here, they're a big side and should be in the top half.

Well, you're underplaying his achievements at Everton for no reason at all.

Where they were in 1986 doesn't matter in the slightest; the fact is that they were perennial relegation candidates with a shoestring budget. Moyes, on that budget, made them into a top half team.

You can say that this alone should not be enough for the United job and that's worthy of discussion but you can't just say that Everton should be in the top half because they won stuff in the past. That's not how football works.

 

[Cal?]

Its not completely blind though Moyes was in effect appointed by SAF, while we can judge his motives (they are both Scottish, have similar upbringings....) I don't think we cant question his judgement to ensure United is left in the right hands.

Sure we can look at SAFs long list of failures in the transfer window and say hes made mistakes but he appears to be a good judge of character and I honestly feel this appointment was not made for the here and now but for the future. SAF would often say when giving youth a chance that the media/fans don't see United 3-4 years down the line but that's a job for the manager. He probably felt the same way about Moyes

I'm not doubting Moyes' character, just doubting his abilities as a manager.

 

[Stack]

We are not going to finish 4th I don't need another 4 months to confirm this.

Yeah but anyone with half a brain knows this season was going to be this tough and that finishing outside the top 4 was a distinct possibility.

 

[Bojan11]

Nobody should doubt Moyes record at Everton. It was decent. But he just screams another O'Neil or Hodgson like manager. He does a great job at mid-table, but not good enough for a top club.

 

[Ixion]

Well, you're underplaying his achievements at Everton for no reason at all.

Where they were in 1986 doesn't matter in the slightest; the fact is that they were perennial relegation candidates with a shoestring budget. Moyes, on that budget, made them into a top half team.

You can say that this alone should not be enough for the United job and that's worthy of discussion but you can't just say that Everton should be in the top half because they won stuff in the past. That's not how football works.

I've said repeatedly he did well. I am saying anytime Everton (and Spurs) don't finish in the top half they are under achieving. I expect Martinez to finish top half with them for the next few years aswell. I actually just dislike people making Everton out to be some minnows.

 

[Stack]

How is saying Everton are a top 10 side criticising Moyes? They were winning the league when Sir Alex first came here, they're a big side and should be in the top half.

The really ugly truth is that the only sides that can win the EPL are the ones with money. The days of the mid table sides being able to win the top league in England are long gone. No side in the history of the EPLY has won the title without having a big bank account or turnover. Aston Villa, Everton, West Ham etc etc etc will never win the EPL unless they get bought by some massively wealthy sugar daddy who is prepared to throw a ton of money at it. In the next 10 years the only sides with the bank roll to win this are Us, City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, unless someone throws a massive amount of money elsewhere. The EPL in terms of titles is not far off the other big leagues which get criticised for being 2 and 3 horse races these days.

 

[Siorac]

Yeah but anyone with half a brain knows this season was going to be this tough and that finishing outside the top 4 was a distinct possibility.

Yeah, right.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/so-what-would-be-success-for-moyes-next-season.370538/

Brwned - and he's usually not accused of being brainless - even says we're favourites for the title! Nobody really considered that we might finish outside the top four.

What I find more interesting about Mainoldo's post is how does he know that we won't? We're five points behind Liverpool, hardly insurmountable. And it's not like they have a world-class team.

 

[Mainoldo]

Yeah but anyone with half a brain knows this season was going to be this tough and that finishing outside the top 4 was a distinct possibility.

Why? Because we had Moyes or because we don't have a good enough team to be better than Arensal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle and Everton? We have Wayne Rooney and Robin Van Persie what half a brain idiot really thought this?! Well you being one.

 

[Bojan11]

Everyone on here I can guarantee you predicted us to finish in the top 3. Please quote me one person who said we won't make the top four at the start of the season.

 

[OneUnited24]

That's the only reason why anyone believes. That goes for you and anyone else here. I haven't seen a good argument to suggest otherwise. If he wasn't SAF man and he came out tomorrow saying "I didn't have a say in who our next manager was". We would all want him sacked.

I still can't for the life of me understand why we believe losing 6 games in the Premier League in January sitting 7 or 8th where ever we are is treated so calmly.

3-4 years down the line? what do we need a new youth policy? is the structure of the club wrong?

The structures not wrong but the squad is woefully unbalanced. We need time to build a new squad and that will take time. Whether he's given that time is yet to be seen - personally I think if we don't make the top 4 he's out because by that point we would have had enough bad games for him to be shown the door but right now we need players to get for and new blood to bloster the squad.

Unfortunately our failure in the summer window will probably cost him a job but our current CEO should hold some of that blame

 

[Bojan11]

The structures not wrong but the squad is woefully unbalanced. We need time to build a new squad and that will take time. Whether he's given that time is yet to be seen - personally I think if we don't make the top 4 he's out because by that point we would have had enough bad games for him to be shown the door but right now we need players to get for and new blood to bloster the squad.

Unfortunately our failure in the summer window will probably cost him a job but our current CEO should hold some of that blame

Our CEO should take the blame for the silly Fabregas bids. But why didn't we identify our targets sooner? Moyes said back in July that we needed two CMS. Yet for some reason decided to pay over the odds for Fellaini.

 

[Stack]

Why? Because we had Moyes or because we don't have a good enough team to be better than Arensal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle and Everton? We have Wayne Rooney and Robin Van Persie what half a brain idiot really thought this?! Well you being one.

Because of all the flaws in our squad. Because we have a new manager taking over from a legend. Because a decent number of key players are a year older and were last season showing signs of being on the downward slide. We have had people complaining about our midfield for 4 seasons now, its not new. Carrick is 32, not much running left in those legs in terms of being the heart of a midfield. Rio is past it. Evra was showing last season he was on the wane, its really there for all to see now. Our wide players for a couple of seasons have been getting worse, not much difference between our wide players performances and this seasons.
If you couldnt see any of that well.....

 

[Mainoldo]

Because of all the flaws in our squad. Because we have a new manager taking over from a legend. Because a decent number of key players are a year older and were last season showing signs of being on the downward slide. We have had people complaining about our midfield for 4 seasons now, its not new. Carrick is 32, not much running left in those legs in terms of being the heart of a midfield. Rio is past it. Evra was showing last season he was on the wane, its really there for all to see now. Our wide players for a couple of seasons have been getting worse, not much difference between our wide players performances and this seasons.
If you couldnt see any of that well.....

De Gea-Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Welbeck.. Thats 5 players out of a first team of 11 that should be the structure of our future I assume that is how Fergie seen it.

We had Rio, Carrick, Evra Vidic, Rooney and RVP which held our experience and quality to be classed as a top 2 premier league side and top European side. If i was a manger coming into this team i would see we have
1) lack of quality in the middle
2)two aging centre backs and
3)left back on his last legs.

Now are you telling me he needs 3 years to get atleast two of these points sorted? Our wingers are pretty shit but no team except for Bayern Munich is perfect.. Out of those 3 easy points which took my 10 seconds to identify the man fixed non. That is our problem not time!

 

[MikeUpNorth]

He turned them from perennial underachievers and threatened by relegation most seasons to one of the most hard-working and respected outfits in the league. They had 2 last day escapes in the 90's before he got there. Top flight longevity if you like but they were a fecking whisker from being relegated twice, in 94' and then in 98'.


There's that one 17th place which was poor, but look at how they responded the very next season, 4th. In what was the start of the traditional top 4's dominance of the Champions League scene. Some feat. He did a remarkable job at Everton, can't believe some are now doubting his work there based on how it's started at United for him, his work at Everton was absolutely stellar.

Moyes' average finishing position with Everton was 8th. That seems about what you'd expect from Everton - they are probably the 6-8th biggest club in England.

 

[Ash_G]

Moyes' average finishing position with Everton was 8th. That seems about what you'd expect from Everton - they are probably the 6-8th biggest club in England.

You're name doesn't mean anything really though does it otherwise Liverpool would have been competing more than they have. He got Everton on average 8th (which includes his first few years where he was settling in to the PL), but I'd be willing to bet that they didn't spend as much proportionally to get there.

 

[Sixpence]

You're name doesn't mean anything really though does it otherwise Liverpool would have been competing more than they have. He got Everton on average 8th (which includes his first few years where he was settling in to the PL), but I'd be willing to bet that they didn't spend as much proportionally to get there.

I remember seeing something that said he was top of the £'s spend to points gained ratio for years. Sad to think but this shoestring working might have been one of the reasons behind his appointment here.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I remember seeing something that said he was top of the £'s spend to points gained ratio for years. Sad to think but this shoestring working might have been one of the reasons behind his appointment here.

Transfer fees don't really mean a whole lot below the top few clubs - the main correlation is between wage bill and league position. From memory, Everton were the 7th highest spenders on wages for most of Moyes rein, though I would need to look up the exact stats.

For me Moyes did a good, if unspectacular, job at Everton. He was good enough not to be sacked despite plateauing for about the last 6 years, but not good enough for a top club to take a chance on him. Ask yourself this, if Fergie had spent over a decade managing Everton, what would he have achieved (bearing in mind he broke the dominance of the Old Firm in Scotland with Aberdeen on a shoestring and even beat Real Madrid to win a European Trophy)? That's the kind of managerial performance at a smaller club which makes it worth taking a chance on them.

 

[Stack]

De Gea-Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Welbeck.. Thats 5 players out of a first team of 11 that should be the structure of our future I assume that is how Fergie seen it.

We had Rio, Carrick, Evra Vidic, Rooney and RVP which held our experience and quality to be classed as a top 2 premier league side and top European side. If i was a manger coming into this team i would see we have
1) lack of quality in the middle
2)two aging centre backs and
3)left back on his last legs.

Now are you telling me he needs 3 years to get atleast two of these points sorted? Our wingers are pretty shit but no team except for Bayern Munich is perfect.. Out of those 3 easy points which took my 10 seconds to identify the man fixed non. That is our problem not time!

Where exactly have I said he needs 3 years to sort it out?. Theres your big problem there, the voices in your head are telling you shit thats not happened.

Moyes hasnt had the chance to fix the problems you mention and replace those players. If you think the transfer window just gone gave a brand new manager to a club the time to sort out even the first 2 points you made then you have seriously unrealistic expectations of reality.

I think we need a left and right back, we have no quality in depth in either of those spots. We need 2 wide players, we have a couple of players there we need to move on. We need 2-3 cm midfielders, we seriously lack depth there.

 

[Stack]

Transfer fees don't really mean a whole lot below the top few clubs - the main correlation is between wage bill and league position. From memory, Everton were the 7th highest spenders on wages for most of Moyes rein, though I would need to look up the exact stats.

For me Moyes did a good, if unspectacular, job at Everton. He was good enough not to be sacked despite plateauing for about the last 6 years, but not good enough for a top club to take a chance on him. Ask yourself this, if Fergie had spent over a decade managing Everton, what would he have achieved (bearing in mind he broke the dominance of the Old Firm in Scotland with Aberdeen on a shoestring and even beat Real Madrid to win a European Trophy)? That's the kind of managerial performance at a smaller club which makes it worth taking a chance on them.

Long time Aberdeen fan here, went to games when Fergie was in charge. He didnt do it on a shoe string budget relative to the Scottish top division.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Long time Aberdeen fan here, went to games when Fergie was in charge. He didnt do it on a shoe string budget relative to the Scottish top division.

Ok, maybe not a shoestring budget, but certainly not megabucks! Fergie won Aberdeen 3 of the 4 titles they've won in their history and their only European success. Oh, and four Scottish Cups as well. I'd say he did a tad better than Moyes at a smaller club.

 

[Sixpence]

Transfer fees don't really mean a whole lot below the top few clubs - the main correlation is between wage bill and league position. From memory, Everton were the 7th highest spenders on wages for most of Moyes rein, though I would need to look up the exact stats.

For me Moyes did a good, if unspectacular, job at Everton. He was good enough not to be sacked despite plateauing for about the last 6 years, but not good enough for a top club to take a chance on him. Ask yourself this, if Fergie had spent over a decade managing Everton, what would he have achieved (bearing in mind he broke the dominance of the Old Firm in Scotland with Aberdeen on a shoestring and even beat Real Madrid to win a European Trophy)? That's the kind of managerial performance at a smaller club which makes it worth taking a chance on them.

But that was the 80's, the money in the modern English Prem makes it physically impossible for anyone to achieve the equivalent of what Fergie did at Aberdeen or even anywhere close to that, so you have to use a different measuring stick. Fergie or no manager on god's earth could have won the league with Everton's budget there in the last 10 years and they never will unless they receive a huge takeover like City or somehow the financial playing field gets levelled out with the top clubs.

Though I do think Moyes should have won a cup or 2 in his time there, lesser managers than him have. That's a blot on his CV for sure.

 

[Ash_G]

I remember seeing something that said he was top of the £'s spend to points gained ratio for years. Sad to think but this shoestring working might have been one of the reasons behind his appointment here.

Well I'm sure it played a part but it also showed an ability to get a lot out of a small group of player and wise use of cash. Unfortunately we've not seen him really show those skills for us yet.

 

[Mainoldo]

Where exactly have I said he needs 3 years to sort it out?. Theres your big problem there, the voices in your head are telling you shit thats not happened.

Moyes hasnt had the chance to fix the problems you mention and replace those players. If you think the transfer window just gone gave a brand new manager to a club the time to sort out even the first 2 points you made then you have seriously unrealistic expectations of reality.

I think we need a left and right back, we have no quality in depth in either of those spots. We need 2 wide players, we have a couple of players there we need to move on. We need 2-3 cm midfielders, we seriously lack depth there.

Hasn't had the chance? Who's fault is that? Every club needs about 5 players if you really look at it. Chelsea need a centre midfielder, Striker 2 left and right backs too realistically however they are way ahead of us. They are not unrealistic expectations we still finished top with all the problems you mentioned above. What is unrealistic is to spend a whole summer and buy well you might as well say no players.

 

[Mainoldo]

Long time Aberdeen fan here, went to games when Fergie was in charge. He didnt do it on a shoe string budget relative to the Scottish top division.

Well everything requires money. he got more money at United than anyone else did in this league too.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

But that was the 80's, the money in the modern English Prem makes it physically impossible for anyone to achieve the equivalent of what Fergie did at Aberdeen or even anywhere close to that, so you have to use a different measuring stick. Fergie or no manager on god's earth could have won the league with Everton's budget there in the last 10 years and they never will unless they receive a huge takeover like City or somehow the financial playing field gets levelled out with the top clubs.

Though I do think Moyes should have won a cup or 2 in his time there, lesser managers than him have. That's a blot on his CV for sure.

It's tough sure, but you have to win something with a club like Everton if you're there for 11 years. Mourinho won the Champions League and Uefa Cup with Porto; Benitez won two La Liga's and a Uefa Cup with Valencia; Klopp won the Bundesliga twice with Dortmund etc. These are the kinds of things you should have to achieve with the 'smaller' clubs to be considered for the biggest jobs.

 

[Mainoldo]

It's tough sure, but you have to win something with a club like Everton if you're there for 11 years. Mourinho won the Champions League and Uefa Cup with Porto; Benitez won two La Liga's and a Uefa Cup with Valencia; Klopp won the Bundesliga twice with Dortmund etc. These are the kinds of things you should have to achieve with the 'smaller' clubs to be considered for the biggest jobs.

Fair point except for Porto... They had money to spend.

 

[Amir]

They also had the ability to attract some of the best local talent.