Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Was it Twiggie who said "hopeful"?
If I am not mistaken, Everton had the eighth highest wage bill on the league (on average). I am not 100% sure but I think I have read it on the past.
On transfers they were much lower, I don't think that they were on top 10.
While that is a fantastic and instantaneous improvement, it looks like a case of a manager capable running the ship aground to save it from sinking. Trouble is, it won't sail any more, it'll just sit there for years until someone more crafty comes along and gets it to sea again. Typical dime-a-dozen mid-table manager in the Hodgson, Pulis and O'Neill mold.
Some managers just lack that little extra something that brings trophies. Most of the managers who go on to become notorious for their ability to win do so very early in their careers. You either have it or you don't. I'd say Moyes is one of those who are very capable, but lack the extra oomph of the truly top class managers. To prove a point, here's a list of the leading managers today and the amount of time it took them to win anything of note:
Hiddink: Took over PSV in 1987 at the age of 41. In a three-year stint he won three league titles, two Dutch cups and a UEFA Cup.
Mourinho: Started managing with Benfica in 2000, at the age of 37. Two years later he took over Porto. With them he won two leagues, a Portuguese Cup, the UEFA cup and the Champions League in two seasons.
Guardiola: Managed Barcelona B for a season (where he won the Tercera Division) starting in 2007, at the age of 36, before being bumped up to the top job. In four years there he won three league titles, two cups, two Champions Leagues and two Club World Cups.
van Gaal: Took over Ajax in 1991 at the age of 40. In six seasons he won the league three times, the Dutch cup once, the UEFA cup once and the Champions League once.
Blanc: Took over Bordeaux in 2007 at the age of 42 and finished 2nd in the league in his first season, before winning it the year later, thus ending Lyon's seven year reign as undefeated champions. Bordeaux hadn't won the league in nine years, and had only finished top three twice in that time before Blanc took over.
Klopp: Took over Mainz as a 34-year old and spent seven seasons with them, getting them up to the Bundesliga for the first time ever and staying there for three straight seasons. Klopp then got hired for the Dortmund job, and his achievements there should be fairly well-known, with a couple of leagues, a cup and a Champions League final being the main points.
Simeone: Started out in 2006 at the age of 36 and won the Argentine league that year with Estudiantes. Won it again with River Plate in 2008. Has managed Atletico since late 2011 and has won the Copa del Rey and the Europa League with them. 2nd in the league so far this season and on the same amount of points as leaders Barcelona.
Capello: Took over Milan at 45 in 1991. Won four league titles and a Champions League in his five years there.
Ancelotti: Started managing in 1995 as a 36-year old with Reggiana. Did a good, albeit trophyless job with Parma from 1996 to 1998 before having an equally trophyless two-year spell with Juventus. In 2002 he started an eight-year stint with Milan, where he won a league, a cup, two Champions Leagues and a CWC.
Wenger: Took over Nancy at 35 in 1984. Three years later he took over Monaco, winning a league and a cup in seven seasons.
I bet there's more that I've forgotten. The common ground is they all won something in the first 10 years of their careers, regardless of how shit the club they started out at was. Sir Alex did it too. Ole has done it. Even bloody Benitez has. Moyes hasn't even managed to fluke a League Cup at Everton. Wigan managed the FA Cup and they have a fanbase that would struggle to fill a phone booth and an even smaller budget than Everton. I can't see anything in Moyes so far that says he has the ability to win silverware, barring the free Community Shield that SAF practically gifted him.
Good points, but might also be worth mentioning how the game has changed on and off the field since SAF's days at Aberdeen to Moyes time at Everton.
Good post. Interesting info on those managers too. Like you said he hasnt even won a Carling Cup.
I think in his best season at Everton when they were 4th his team had the least goals scored and most conceded of the top ten teams. We put something like 11 goals past them home and away.
They also failed to win 12 of their games in 2005 (losing 9 of them).
Chelsea lost one, United and Arsenal lost 5 each (which is somewhat respectable) then Everton and Liverpool lost 13 and 14 respectively. Everton had a negative GD and made top 4. What a clusterfeck of a season.
Bad times
Yeah I think I remember that wage wise they were towards the high end, still though he likely did better compared to what was being spent. tbf again if you take out those first 2 seasons he had at Everton or look at the last 7 seasons or so then his average position to total spent on wages and transfers would I imagine be impressive.
Fellaini?
All interesting stuff reading other managers achievements compared to Moyes. The fact is I doubt Sir Alex will have pushed for his appointment regardless of previous record of not winning a trophy, and others doing fantastically well in their respective jobs. There's nothing we can do but support the manager during his tenure. All this negativity will not be helping the club, players, and Moyes. Thankfully match going fans have been fantastic during games.
How do you think of the "reputation factor" of Moyes as a manager? Is the 'fear factor' a crucial missing component in the way players/media treat him?
For example, Fergie had a no nonsense in your face attitute to both his own team and to media. If the media asks bad question, they feel the wrath immediately. If a players does not do his job, he faces the infamous hairdryer. From the time Fergie took over he had set of break the norm attitude of stopping the drinking culture even if meant firing popular players. I don't get any such vibe under Moyes. I mean, he does get animated at times, but he does not have the same effect as Fergie. I think players think they can get away with more under him.
He also does not come across as a character to 'impose' his will or anything over the team. More like a caretaker of what Fergie has done, rather than a dyanmic new manager.
Don't feel it's worth a new thread, so disucss here. Should Moyes 'make a statement'? Maybe kick a boot at Anderson?
For example, Fergie had a no nonsense in your face attitute to both his own team and to media. If the media asks bad question, they feel the wrath immediately. If a players does not do his job, he faces the infamous hairdryer. From the time Fergie took over he had set of break the norm attitude of stopping the drinking culture even if meant firing popular players. I don't get any such vibe under Moyes. I mean, he does get animated at times, but he does not have the same effect as Fergie. I think players think they can get away with more under him.
He also does not come across as a character to 'impose' his will or anything over the team. More like a caretaker of what Fergie has done, rather than a dyanmic new manager.
Don't feel it's worth a new thread, so disucss here. Should Moyes 'make a statement'? Maybe kick a boot at Anderson?
Think people will need to realise that he'll probably be here till the summer before the 2015/16 season. Fergie and Charlton will see he's given time, and he'll most likely have funds to invest in the summer... but i doubt the Glazers will put up with him screwing up there business plans if he misses out on CL two seasons in a row.
He likes having the "bold" soup for lunch at Eat.
Anyone see BeardedGenius' "Saving Mr Moyes" gif?
Thought its quite funny, with Woody next to him.
Can't upload pictures
Thought its quite funny, with Woody next to him.
Can't upload pictures
I think last season showed what a good understanding Ferguson had over his squad. I didn't watch much of you but have family who are die hard fans and all said it was very uninspiring football at times but you were ruthless. Important to play the best football that suits the players rather than try to play a brand of football which leaves them exposed. Kept things tight enough at the back but were super efficient in attack. I suppose having RvP & Carrick put in 34+ league games helped as they reckoned those two by far were the stand out players.
IMO Moyes biggest mistake was getting rid of key staff and trying to change too much too quickly. Could of bought his own people in as well but should of kept existing people on one season minimum, he had no previous experience of managing at such a high level and should of kept people around who do and know the players inside out. Ferguson imo wasn't tactically the most astute manager going but last 10 years he kept people like Queiroz & Rene around who advised him well in that department. Ferguson's biggest strength imo was his man management skills and getting the very best out of his players but also realising his own limitations. He is called stubborn but I do believe behind the scenes he knew where he needed more help and wasn't afraid to bring that in, that is one of they key reasons his success lasted so long, he changed with the times. Ferguson admitted himself the changes Queiroz made could not be understated.
But I do think in the long term Moyes will be alright for the club, might have to show patience and I think Moyes needs to quickly realise his own faults but he will get there eventually.
IMO Moyes biggest mistake was getting rid of key staff and trying to change too much too quickly. Could of bought his own people in as well but should of kept existing people on one season minimum, he had no previous experience of managing at such a high level and should of kept people around who do and know the players inside out. Ferguson imo wasn't tactically the most astute manager going but last 10 years he kept people like Queiroz & Rene around who advised him well in that department. Ferguson's biggest strength imo was his man management skills and getting the very best out of his players but also realising his own limitations. He is called stubborn but I do believe behind the scenes he knew where he needed more help and wasn't afraid to bring that in, that is one of they key reasons his success lasted so long, he changed with the times. Ferguson admitted himself the changes Queiroz made could not be understated.
But I do think in the long term Moyes will be alright for the club, might have to show patience and I think Moyes needs to quickly realise his own faults but he will get there eventually.
If thats true how has he got Rooney to perform so well again?
Would Yorke have rediscovered his form had Fergie left in 2001? Just because Rooney is glad Ferguson is gone and playing like the weight of having to deal with the old manager is off his shoulders, it does not mean there has been a net benefit effect on the whole United side. I think its quite obvious that most the players are finding it difficult to connect with Moyes. The body language of the players does not suggest they have full confidence in Moyes and what he is asking them to do.
That Pallister article is a classic example of how easy it is to be a football journalist. Honestly, it must be the easiest job in the world. All you have to do is get a footballer, any footballer, to say literally ANYTHING at all. As long as they speak, you can write a story that will be publishable. Its no better in the national papers.
Ryan Giggs believes United will be more determined than ever to win their next game.
Henry admits he still has a soft spot for Arsenal.
Pallister baffled by champions' poor form.
Absolutely any mundane comment at all can be turned into a story.
Ryan Giggs believes United will be more determined than ever to win their next game.
Henry admits he still has a soft spot for Arsenal.
Pallister baffled by champions' poor form.
Absolutely any mundane comment at all can be turned into a story.
He's probably playing for a transfer, more clubs will want a Rooney at his best.
Ferguson earned his right to be a forceful and know it all character in terms of dealing with the media before he even arrived at United. He had already been a winner in Scotland and had broken the Celtic Rangers monopoly. Moyes has won nothing..he has it all to prove...it must be rather daunting. Not to forget that Journalists have been so used to the Fergie way, that to see this wide eyed slightly overawed new manager sitting there must have got them salivating. Having said that, the press have bee quite kind to Moyes, although after the Swansea result there is proof that they are shapening their knives...
Manchester United transfer options: Five areas that David Moyes has to strengthen in January
Right-back
Ideal signing: Lukasz Piszczek / Kyle Walker
Best January option: Mathieu Debuchy
Centre-back
Ideal signing: Eliaquim Mangala
Best January option: Joleon Lescott / Thomas Vermaelen
Right-back
Ideal signing: Lukasz Piszczek / Kyle Walker
Best January option: Mathieu Debuchy
Centre-back
Ideal signing: Eliaquim Mangala
Best January option: Joleon Lescott / Thomas Vermaelen
Manchester United transfer options: Five areas that David Moyes has to strengthen in January
Right-back
Ideal signing: Lukasz Piszczek / Kyle Walker
Best January option: Mathieu Debuchy
Centre-back
Ideal signing: Eliaquim Mangala
Best January option: Joleon Lescott / Thomas Vermaelen
sweet JesusWow that is an appalling article
"Despite Rafael’s development into a highly-rated attacking full-back, there remain concerns over his defensive capabilities, particularly when dealing with high balls into the far post.
Chris Smalling is only viewed as a stop-gap in that position, but although Moyes believes Antonio Valencia can become a right-back, the winger’s lack of defensive awareness was borne out by Christian Eriksen’s winner for Spurs at Old Trafford last week.
Right-back is not a ‘must-do’ in January, but long-term targets would be Borussia Dortmund’s Lukasz Piszczek and England right-back Kyle Walker."
Rafael is a defensive liability.. So we should get Walker?
"Despite Rafael’s development into a highly-rated attacking full-back, there remain concerns over his defensive capabilities, particularly when dealing with high balls into the far post.
Chris Smalling is only viewed as a stop-gap in that position, but although Moyes believes Antonio Valencia can become a right-back, the winger’s lack of defensive awareness was borne out by Christian Eriksen’s winner for Spurs at Old Trafford last week.
Right-back is not a ‘must-do’ in January, but long-term targets would be Borussia Dortmund’s Lukasz Piszczek and England right-back Kyle Walker."
Rafael is a defensive liability.. So we should get Walker?
I also don't understand why he has Reus as an alternative to Herrera, Moutinho or Cabaye. They aren't alternatives.
Wow that is an appalling article
"Despite Rafael’s development into a highly-rated attacking full-back, there remain concerns over his defensive capabilities, particularly when dealing with high balls into the far post.
Chris Smalling is only viewed as a stop-gap in that position, but although Moyes believes Antonio Valencia can become a right-back, the winger’s lack of defensive awareness was borne out by Christian Eriksen’s winner for Spurs at Old Trafford last week.
Right-back is not a ‘must-do’ in January, but long-term targets would be Borussia Dortmund’s Lukasz Piszczek and England right-back Kyle Walker."
Rafael is a defensive liability.. So we should get Walker?
Yeah, it really is ridiculous. It's almost as though Mark Ogden is trolling, but he's not. Rafael is key to the team.
Manchester United transfer options: Five areas that David Moyes has to strengthen in January
Right-back
Ideal signing: Lukasz Piszczek / Kyle Walker
Best January option: Mathieu Debuchy
Centre-back
Ideal signing: Eliaquim Mangala
Best January option: Joleon Lescott / Thomas Vermaelen
What the feck
Ogden must be trolling with that tripe.
Christ!
Christ!
The media can't honestly believe Debuchy and Kyle Walker are better than Rafael?
Maybe Ogden is mates with Walker?
Manchester United transfer options: Five areas that David Moyes has to strengthen in January
Right-back
Ideal signing: Lukasz Piszczek / Kyle Walker
Best January option: Mathieu Debuchy
Centre-back
Ideal signing: Eliaquim Mangala
Best January option: Joleon Lescott / Thomas Vermaelen
Geezus, it is possibly the most retarded article I have read on a while. From talking nonsenses like Rafael being shit on defense, especially dealing with high ball and we should replace him with some very average player (Walker and Debuchy), to Gundogan as defensive midfielder and Cabaye/Herrera/Moutinho as attacking midfielders. Don't understand how these idiots have a job.
Nothing beats the 2005 article...
It was about our empire crumbling and how Fergie needed to sign these players to get us back to winning ways....The players included:
Steve Finnian
Stephen Carr
Gareth Barry
Kevin Nolan
Ledley King
Olof Melberg
And Nigel Reo bloody Coker
It was about our empire crumbling and how Fergie needed to sign these players to get us back to winning ways....The players included:
Steve Finnian
Stephen Carr
Gareth Barry
Kevin Nolan
Ledley King
Olof Melberg
And Nigel Reo bloody Coker
Separated this into the three different points you make.
1 - Nonsense. The inability of Everton to crack the Top 4 has nothing to do with lacking a 'crafty manager' - more than anything else it is down to their finances. They have hit a clear ceiling which won't be broken through on their current budget and that is a fact. Martinez is gaining plaudits for his current successes at Everton but he won't break the Top 4 - in fact I would be surprised if he equals - let alone beats - Moyes' 6th place finish last season.
A comparison to show what I am talking about. Since Moyes took over in 2002 this is his net spend compared with Liverpool, a team he finished higher than last season,
Everton - £22 million
Liverpool - £268 million
Liverpool have spent over ten times as much as Moyes in the period he has been at Everton. Yet you want to blame Everton's inablity to crack the Top 4 on not being 'crafty'... Really?
2) This point links with number 1) as more than half of those managers were at clubs capable of winning things. Capello winning things with AC Milan has no relevance to Moyes' career at Everton. No shit the manager of AC Milan will win some trophies. It's the same with Van Gaal at Ajax, Guardiola, Ancelotti or Hiddink taking over the reigning Champions in PSV. None of those are good examples at all - though they all did great jobs its not at all comparable to Moyes.
3) This is a fair point. The lack of a Carling Cup/FA Cup win is a clear blotch on his record.
I stopped reading the Telegraph because the sports writing is so poor. It's a shame because a few years ago they used one of the best sports sections going. The drivel they come out with, considering it's supposed to be a quality newspaper, is embarrassing at times.
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