It's not a myth at all. All he said is that stability is 'a' key element to success - so one of many factors which are important for clubs to succeed. I don't think that is even debatable, stability is a clear benefit.
Moyes So Far!
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It's not a myth at all. All he said is that stability is 'a' key element to success - so one of many factors which are important for clubs to succeed. I don't think that is even debatable, stability is a clear benefit.
Its not but getting rid of a manager at this time just seems stupid.
After SAF we need to get someone who will rebuild and Moyes built a competitive, well organised team at Everton and managed to rebuild after losing their best players. That's where we are at the moment.
Have many of Moyes' Everton players had their say on how Moyes is doing with us? They all seem pretty quite...
It's not a matter of blindly persevering with any randomly hired git, though. The idea is that Moyes has some of Fergie's qualities when it comes to managing the whole United beast, from top to bottom, which is a very different job from what most other top club managers do. The perseverance is with the model as much as with the manager, i.e. retaining a system in which the manager is the Big Daddy of the whole bloody thing - it's within such a system Moyes is regarded as a great candidate. Maybe the board was wrong about this - maybe we should just restructure the whole club and change our approach to how it should be run and managed. We'll just have to wait and see. But the idea is to keep a certain (winning) culture alive, not just to hand out six year contracts to people in the hope they'll get it right sooner or later. There's some thought behind it.
Wenger, as Ixion pointed out, has gone trohpyless almost as long as Moyes at Everton.
Moyes built them into a steady top half club, looks like plenty of new managers do that everywhere, I'm talking about some real success.
Ancelotti took over a Milan in a bit of disarray and took them onwards and upwards.
True, certainly in other leagues consistency doesn't seem to offer much. Within our league though without a big spending purse (still no guarantee), staying steady has seemed to yield the best results. Chelsea came with all their cash and caught us cold and won two titles back to back, since then we've won 5 titles, missing out on the others by almost the smallest amount we could. For all their investment they've underachieved only winning one more in that time and fluking the CL. Arsenal may not have been challenging for titles but Wenger has kept them performing above what others around them have been investing. Liverpool are starting to see the benefits of sticking with BR. Everton have performed a lot better relatively speaking that Spurs have with the consitency from Moyes with Martinez now benefiting from the foundations he left.
It's not conclusive or anything but I think in our league anyway giving somebody time does have its benefits, provided of course they show potential and ambition.
On a side note we shouldn't forget that we're only eleven points of the top. Now whilst I don't expect us to challenge this season anymore, with better luck with injuries and Moyes doing better himself we could easily be right up there and given we've dropped 12 points at home alone, points that we shouldn't have dropped, we could quite easily be top of the table again. I mean are others really so much better than us because for me we've been pretty uninspiring in most games yet this isn't even the biggest defeciet we've ever had to claw back. I haven't been watching other teams so don't know if they're playing really well or just decent but for us I don't think we could realistically be playing a whole lot worse with the talent we do have in the team and yet we're really not as far of the pace as you'd think. Still no telling whether that will increase or decrease though I guess.
Sorry, the last thing we need after Sir Alex is a period of uncertainty, we needed someone who knows how to hit the ground running and keep the club competitive.
I know it's ridiculous, but I wished I lived in a parallel world where Jose got the job to see where we are....and then compare.......
But Wenger looks to be bearing the fruits of his labour. We (as fans) make fun of asnl for going so long without a trophy but Wenger brought them stability during a time when that was vital and the board noticed it.
I'll be honest I was really livid when we lost at the weekend but looking back at it I have accepted that hes going to need time and new players to stamp his authority onto the club. Right now hes trying to make sense the squad and failing BUT lets remember that it took one of the best manager of all time (who built this squad) to know how to cover the teams failing - namely how to cope without a midfielder.
Moyes did a good job at Everton, but they are a historically successful club. They've spent more time in the top division of English football than anyone else and haven't been relegated for 60 years. Moyes did very well on a tight budget, but a top 10 side is exactly what they are and where they should be. He never pushed them on to be more than that.
So basically your big example is still Sir Alex who managed to see off Chelsea after Mourinho's first reign.
The problem is that we're miles behind lots of teams right now, when we caught the likes of Newcastle and Arsenal from 10+ points back, we were already in 2nd place. Also, I'd argue City & Chelsea have underperformed so far to allow us to be only 9, 10pts behind.
The problem for me is that it seems the squad are trying to make sense of Moyes and failing....this the bascially the same team that won the league...
We'll see about Wenger, personally I expect they'd finish a distant 3rd come May, one place better than last season after finally abandoning his ideology and signing Ozil.
Personally I agree we don't need uncertainty but having someone hit the ground running was hopeful at best. I'm actually starting to think even Jose would have trouble getting this squad to play, not because they are bad but because he wouldn't know how to cover for its short comings
Not true.
In the six years before Moyes took over Everton came - 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th, 15th
He immediately and completely turned the club around, turning them into a Top 6/7 side. He achieved this, and maintained it, whilst being outspent and having a far smaller budget than his competition.
Well not really, if you're measuring success in trophies than sure, but in terms of exceeding expectations based on what you're spending to what you're bringing in then the likes of Wenger and Moyes have done very well and Arsnela and Everton have benefited from that stability. Where as Chelsea have surely not had the success their financial spending may have yielded them and I think it's a fair point that giving one of their managers more time might have done more for them than simply throwing money at the problem.
If you think in our league the teams that have done well in relative terms then it's United, Arsenal, Everton who have consistently over performed against what they're spending. Liverpool I'd say had done their best recently after having given first Benitez (before the takeover) and now BR a good amount of time to get things as they want it.
What success have Chelsea and Real had in recent seasons apart from here and there. You could argue Chelsea's best seasons were when they stuck with Mourinho before.
Got sacked from Juventus after winning a title but not conviencing... In my books this a good example of why clubs should be paitent. However our blind faith in Moyes is not.
You could say that Everton drastically underachieved before appointing Moyes who steadied the ship and took them to their true level and kept them there. That what he achieved was just "on par".
I wouldn't agree if someone said that though because he regularly outperformed clubs that spent far more than Everton, like Newcastle or Tottenham.
No he didnt, his first full year was awful. Everton finished 17th with 39 points, the lowest total in the club's history. And which teams that finished below him had a far larger budget than him?
They had one bad season where they nearly went down under him though, think it was his second season. But on the whole he did the absolute maximum he could possibly do with them without big investment, which was generally 6th. He could do no more there. They needed a City style takeover to break that top 4. Before anyone says Martinez will get top 4 with them, I guarantee he won't.
Eh? They only stuck with him when he was winning. It started to go sour when he lost the league.
I too wished they have kept AVB.. We probably would have had Hazard in a Manchester United shirt right now
Chelsea did win the CL not so long ago. Real managed to break the stranglehold of the greatest team in the world ever ever.
I am talking historically, not the years just before Moyes arrived. I think in an all-time English football league table they are 7th, that is in the history of the football here. They've spent more time in the top division than anyone else. They're a big side and should be in the top 10 (of course some seasons they will fluctuate).
We they be where they are now if Moyes had stayed? Would he have brought that striker that they desperately needed? Would Anichabe have been sold?
Ancelotti was sacked from Juve after they finished second to Roma in 2001 (and to Lazio in 2000). Though they did it in a fecking insane way, they sacked him at half time of the final game when they still had a chance of winning the title.
They finished seventh in his first season.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
He came 7th in his first season in charge.
Sense.
I would echo that guarantee, he won't do it.
Edit - Not because he is a poor manager, he clearly isn't, but that Everton have hit a ceiling which they won't break through without significant investment which they don't have.
And 17th in his second season.
And he won the Manager of the Year award!
We beat them home and away though, scoring three times in the last five minutes at OT. Scholes
Erm, not sure why I brought that up. Nice memories I guess.
Do you really want to try and criticise his achievements with Everton?
It's a complete and utter turnaround - which was made, and sustained, with little investment.
Everton Pre Moyes,
97 - 15th
98 - 17th
99 - 14th
00 - 13th
01 - 16th
02 - 15th
Everton After Moyes,
03 - 7th
04 - 17th
05 - 4th
06 - 11th
07 - 6th
08 - 5th
09 - 5th
10 - 8th
11 - 7th
12 - 7th
13 - 6th
I don't know, nobody does but I'm convinced they'd be around 6th or 7th as was generally their way under him. Goodison Park became a fortress under him in the past few seasons. Martinez has got the loan signings in with the money we gave him but I very much doubt he'll better Moyes' 6th place last season. In fact I am certain he won't. They'll finish 6th or lower. Martinez is just the name at the moment so I say let's see him sustain that top 6/7 place for years like Moyes did.
Well he finished finished 17th with 39 points, the lowest total in the club's history the following season.
Well he finished finished 17th with 39 points, the lowest total in the club's history the following season.
Its not completely blind though Moyes was in effect appointed by SAF, while we can judge his motives (they are both Scottish, have similar upbringings....) I don't think we cant question his judgement to ensure United is left in the right hands.
Sure we can look at SAFs long list of failures in the transfer window and say hes made mistakes but he appears to be a good judge of character and I honestly feel this appointment was not made for the here and now but for the future. SAF would often say when giving youth a chance that the media/fans don't see United 3-4 years down the line but that's a job for the manager. He probably felt the same way about Moyes
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