That makes for more comforting reading, cheers.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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That makes for more comforting reading, cheers.
I really want to support Moyes, but aside from giving Januzaj an opportunity, can anyone name any positives that he's done so far that would give them much hope going forward?
The reasons given for why Moyes has lead us to where we are today are a bunch of excuses that have been obstacles we have faced many times before under Sir Alex. It's not like we haven't had an injury crisis before and while I wholewheartedly agree alot of players have underperformed this season, I will argue that Valencia (while still shit), Young and Rooney have been a hell of alot better for Moyes than they were for Sir Alex last season where we actually won games.
If he had completely changed our tactics, I'd have a lot more understanding and patience as to why things haven't gone so well. But the fact that we are the exact same team, with the same tactics just must shittier and more apt to losing, leave me very concerned about where Moyes is taking us.
The reasons given for why Moyes has lead us to where we are today are a bunch of excuses that have been obstacles we have faced many times before under Sir Alex. It's not like we haven't had an injury crisis before and while I wholewheartedly agree alot of players have underperformed this season, I will argue that Valencia (while still shit), Young and Rooney have been a hell of alot better for Moyes than they were for Sir Alex last season where we actually won games.
If he had completely changed our tactics, I'd have a lot more understanding and patience as to why things haven't gone so well. But the fact that we are the exact same team, with the same tactics just must shittier and more apt to losing, leave me very concerned about where Moyes is taking us.
We are joint bottom of the 'attacks through the centre' list, too. Again, horrifying, and as I always say, a consequence of unimaginative, uncreative coaching that I can't see changing unless Moyes sacks his current staff and drafts in some help. We need to do work on playing as a unit, passing the ball and then moving into correct positions.
just for shits and giggles I ended up looking at things Ive said on here about the possibility of Moyes succeeding Fergie over the last few years:
"I have seen nothing from Moyes to suggest he has what it takes to make the step up to manage us.
It is difficult for him though as he has taken Everton about as far as they can go - without more cash behind him he cant really progress."
"To have any chance of succeeding Fergie, a manager will need to have a winning pedigree - Moyes has never won anything so is not even in contention as far as I am concerned."
"Im continually baffled at why Moyes is ever linked to being our future manager - there is no chance whatsoever, he probably wouldnt even make a shortlist of 10."
"I have seen nothing from Moyes to suggest he has what it takes to make the step up to manage us.
It is difficult for him though as he has taken Everton about as far as they can go - without more cash behind him he cant really progress."
"To have any chance of succeeding Fergie, a manager will need to have a winning pedigree - Moyes has never won anything so is not even in contention as far as I am concerned."
"Im continually baffled at why Moyes is ever linked to being our future manager - there is no chance whatsoever, he probably wouldnt even make a shortlist of 10."
I'm definitely not for sacking managers on the fly, and all for giving managers enough time, but right now I'm looking at the Chelsea experiment, the Liverpool experiment (with Benitez), and our latest results, I have to admit I'm starting to have some doubts...
I really want to give Moyes a chance till at least the end of the season, but the way things are going it looks like the price is going to be very high...
Hope he changes things in January (whether he buys somebody or not)...
I really want to give Moyes a chance till at least the end of the season, but the way things are going it looks like the price is going to be very high...
Hope he changes things in January (whether he buys somebody or not)...
just for shits and giggles I ended up looking at things Ive said on here about the possibility of Moyes succeeding Fergie over the last few years:
"I have seen nothing from Moyes to suggest he has what it takes to make the step up to manage us.
It is difficult for him though as he has taken Everton about as far as they can go - without more cash behind him he cant really progress."
"To have any chance of succeeding Fergie, a manager will need to have a winning pedigree - Moyes has never won anything so is not even in contention as far as I am concerned."
"Im continually baffled at why Moyes is ever linked to being our future manager - there is no chance whatsoever, he probably wouldnt even make a shortlist of 10."
You could probably make a similar list to the majority on here. Really weird decision to give him the job in the first place. If he wasn't Sir Alex's friend, or scottish, then there would be no chance that he'd get the job. A bit sad really. Not saying he was given the job just because of that, but if he didn't have those 2 things going for him then he wouldn't have even come into Sir Alex's mind.
well he has always had his supporters actually and there were some United fans who did want him, but it was a minority - there was never any clear first choice amongst the fanbase.
Still I'm not writting him off just yet - there had been signs of improvements before the last couple of results so I hope he can turn it around before it is too late.
My apologies, took that from a Podcast - should have read up instead!
Pretty odd to see Southampton at the top of that list though...
We didn't always strengthen. We've needed new midfielders for about five years and never even tried to strengthen there. In fact, signing Van Persie aside, we haven't done anything to significantly strengthen in fecking ages.
I posted this in another thread, but in 2008, This was our CL final squad
VDS
Brown
Rio
Vidic
Evra
Hargreaves
Scholes
Carrick
Tevez
Rooney
Ronaldo
Subs:
Fletcher
Anderson
Nani
PIG
O'Shea
Silvestre
Giggs
There's not much strengthening been going on there. In fact, we've become significantly weaker in literally every single area of the pitch. Moyes isn't above criticism, but it's tiring seeing him blamed for issues which have been allowed to grow for years before he arrived. He even tried to address them in the summer, and the club failed to sign the players he wanted, barring one exception who they paid over the odds for after the season had already started.
I have more concern with the underperforming of the current players, and his constant swapping them around even when he does seem to find combinations that work. He doesn't exactly convince anyone that he has a plan. Things like, in recent weeks, it becoming obvious that we perform better with a young centreback pairing and Smalling in the middle, and first chance he gets, he starts shoving Rio and Vidic back in there and shunting Smalling out wide again...and then we go back to looking completely shit. It's becoming almost like watching someone try to solve a rubix cube whilst blindfolded.
Though I still think at this stage a lot of the blame still lies with the players. I mean, Chelsea have been lumbered with some god awful managers in recent years, and yet the players always have enough character to stand up and pull something meaningful from their season. Our lot are proving utterly pathetic by comparison. Almost as if they have zero character or belief within themselves because they were just borrowing it all from Fergie.
just for shits and giggles I ended up looking at things Ive said on here about the possibility of Moyes succeeding Fergie over the last few years:
"I have seen nothing from Moyes to suggest he has what it takes to make the step up to manage us.
It is difficult for him though as he has taken Everton about as far as they can go - without more cash behind him he cant really progress."
"To have any chance of succeeding Fergie, a manager will need to have a winning pedigree - Moyes has never won anything so is not even in contention as far as I am concerned."
"Im continually baffled at why Moyes is ever linked to being our future manager - there is no chance whatsoever, he probably wouldnt even make a shortlist of 10."
Tagline is apt.
I think we need to give Moyes at least 2 seasons to prove himself. His is a strong work ethic. Run till you drop pressing game. This is how he wants to build the team then so be it. But it also means that some of the better technical players who cannot cope will have to go. He will need to bring in players with technical and physical ability. There is likely to be a wholesale clear out but in this first season he will push the players to their maximum and see who makes the cut. We will come through this painful period stronger. In fact I am confident that with more taxing training we will also end the season stronger. Unfortunately I think a top 4 finish is unlikely.
I would say the number 1 problem is the Glazers looking for value instead of buying top class players we obviously need, and have needed for some time now to strengthen the midfield. Now the defence is obviously also in need of strengthening as well. If we fail to make the champions league I could see Rooney and Van Persie being not to happy. Then we would likely need some strengthening up front too.
I was almost certain these weren't significantly different from last season so I did a bit of research. Stats are for PL only.
Long balls per game (last season vs this season) 59 Vs 64
Average possession per game 56.2 Vs 55.5
Pass success per game 85.7 Vs 83.5
Short Passes per game 471 Vs 435
Shots per game 14.8 Vs 13.3
As a side note, last season 40% of our attacks came down the right side. This season it is 44%.
Some of those smallish drops in passing stats can be attributed to Carrick being injured and Scholes retiring.
Main point is that we are playing exactly the same style as we did last season and we are exactly the same team. Moyes hasn't changed things significantly and we most certainly aren't a long ball side.
Main thing is, last season we had SAF to inspire and RVP in shit hot form.
Noods. The success or failure of a team is because of the manager. When Fergie took over he had to practically start from scratch. Moyes inherited a title winning team. He did not need to recreate the wheel. He had to fix the obvious weakness in the squad. As for players not giving 100%...surely that too is up to the manager......to get teh best out of them. How was Fergie able to do it? there is now an awful lot of work to be done. I'm not sure Moyes is up to it. I hope I am wrong.
This.
By the way, 59 vs 64 (long balls per game) is a big difference. Barcelona is at 54.
He has been a complete disaster so far, much worse than I ever imagined.
Long passes aren't horrible in themselves. At our best we've used long passing both effectively and in an esthetically pleasing way (Scholes - it should be enough to mention his name).
Now, when we resort to our infamous zombie formula (ping it long and wide, cross it from out wide), this is both largely ineffective and not very pleasing on the eye - but it ain't "hoofing" in a traditional sense. We don't use a big target man, nor do we use long balls consciously as an attacking tool. Those long balls from deep our CBs often resort to, for instance, look more like desperation than tactics. Again, we don't field big men up front - so it would be a senseless tactic in the first place.
Anyway, I think it's worth mentioning this in the middle of all the present misery - because the idea that Moyes is turning us into a hoofing side isn't well founded. We play with too little invention and variation, yes - and it's a big problem. But it isn't primitive hoof ball tactics, that's simply not true. And the staleness of the formula isn't anything new either. It was a problem during Fergie's last seasons as well - as has been pointed out again and again.
Now, when we resort to our infamous zombie formula (ping it long and wide, cross it from out wide), this is both largely ineffective and not very pleasing on the eye - but it ain't "hoofing" in a traditional sense. We don't use a big target man, nor do we use long balls consciously as an attacking tool. Those long balls from deep our CBs often resort to, for instance, look more like desperation than tactics. Again, we don't field big men up front - so it would be a senseless tactic in the first place.
Anyway, I think it's worth mentioning this in the middle of all the present misery - because the idea that Moyes is turning us into a hoofing side isn't well founded. We play with too little invention and variation, yes - and it's a big problem. But it isn't primitive hoof ball tactics, that's simply not true. And the staleness of the formula isn't anything new either. It was a problem during Fergie's last seasons as well - as has been pointed out again and again.
I asked this yesterday but it got lost in the arguments overnight.
Honestly speaking, were any of you surprised at the Bony goal?
Honestly speaking, were any of you surprised at the Bony goal?
Don't think anyone has said they are. There is a big difference between long balls and passing.
Indeed. And that's my point. Whatever it is we're doing - or are failing to do - at the moment is a far cry from using long balls/hoofing as a tactic.
Like Everton, Munich or even Stoke we can see a distinct change in style from their new managers. I don't know if Moyes has made a conscious decision to stick to the way that proved successful under Fergie, but we really need a revamp in style regardless who is playing we should now aim for this as it can't be any worse than the present style of relying on a 18 year old kid to produce a moment of magic.
No,
If truth be told I haven't expected much from us this season in the way of winning trophies, but I never thought we would be so ineffective. The nerves in the team is incredible when you think about it, from champs to chumps in the space off 6 months
It had an inevitability about it like the Madrid goals after Nani's red last season.
The thing is Fergie knew how to play that style of football, he was the best at it. At the moment it's like a painter and decorator trying to copy Leonardo da Vinci.
goodness he looked defeated in that post match press conference...
not a good sign
not a good sign
Are we not playing Moyes's style anyway?
At Everton he liked to channel all his attacks down the wing. Granted that it was an avenue of attack that Fergie liked too but under SAF we mixed it up a fair bit as well. All the stats point to our style regressing under Moyes too, we have become more direct and linear in our attack play.
What is your opinion on the degree to which a manager shapes the confidence and performance of a side regardless of the tactics? Do you think that Moyes has lost parts of the dressing room yet?
We have no wingers to play his old style. Young is shite, Nani is shite, Giggs hasn't played there for years, Zaha is unfavoured, Valencia can only kick the ball past the defender and try and outrun his opponent, Januzaj a young AM (in my opinion), Kagawa an AM........for a club with such a tradition of great wingers we are sorely lacking in that dept.
This is a major issue in my opinion - we're too predictable, but for me a large part of this is down to the fact that Moyes has very limited resources in his squad. Compared to the other top sides the squad is seriously mediocre in terms of ability.
Today is a great example. Without Rooney or RVP we have no creative spark, nor pose any real threat going forward. This was evident last year as well.
Fergie stepped away at the top - but I personally believe he did it because he knows the scale of the rebuilding job that it now required. Clearly at his age he wasn't likely to be working long enough to do it so he's retired and left it to someone else. I hope this is the main reason he's gone and not because he knows that the money isnt available to get the players of neccessary ability in.
The spectre of Fergie isnt helping Moyes. Some seem to be laying blame at his door because he isnt achieveing what Fergie did with the same squad - which is ridiculous. Moyes has the toughest job in football and needs time to adjust - but he's been badly let down by the board.
Bottom line, the club have given him a 6 year contract and therefore need to back him to spend big on probably 5 or 6 players. The repercussions on not doing so could be huge, short and long term.
He looked defeated from the moment Swansea scored the first goal. His lack of reaction for the equalizer was weird too, I'm not saying he shouldn't celebrated like a madman but his mind was on something else, he was still worried.
Good find.
Over 12% of our passes are long. The same with Everton this season (64 per game). Nothing wrong with long balls, allows faster transitions, but variety in play crucial.
In fairness we all were the lack of confidence in the team is extremely visible, it feels more like a relief when we score when it used to be expected. Tough times ahead for him and us.
Its quite possible I am being too trusting / naive but I honestly think SAF left for reasons to do with his age, family etc, not because he perceived the club to be in any kind of trouble or because any more work is required now than you would expect running a top club like ours at the best of times. I think SAF worked his arse off to bring in quality young players to ensure the long term future of the club: players like Smalling, Rafa, Jones, Chicharito and Powell, not to mention those that came through in house such as Welbeck and Cleverley. People keep saying our squad is old and its true it has aging players in it but that is really only half the story.
I strongly agree with this.
The policy we have of buying young, developing in house, generally not spunking massive sums on established stars is all well and good and SAF was the master of working that way, I think Moyes has it in him to work that way too in the long term which is probably a major reason SAF felt he was the best man to take over. But I think this policy is exacerbating the issues that were inevitable anyway when we went through this transitional phase. Someone mentioned Chelsea earlier, I think the differences there are 1) Mourinho cast a significant shadow for sure, but not the same shadow Fergie does, but more relevant here 2) Chelsea have more players at the peak of their powers who have the maturity to perform regardless of managerial problems and uncertainties. Young players need more guidance and are surely less equipped to deal with the pressure of dealing with this transition. And Moyes is struggling to provide the guidance and motivation they need because he is struggling to adapt himself. And therein lies the inevitability, because following SAF was always going to put anyone under so much pressure, anyone would have struggled to maintain stability and the same performance levels we saw before.
Weirdly, yesterday before the game a guy was telling me all about that thing that some Everton fans used to call him Dithering Dave, and then low and behold, the game itself demonstrated to me exactly why. There was seemingly no direction from the bench on anything we did yesterday - we seemingly didn't change our approach once, and there seemed to be a reluctance from the bench to want to change anything. The response, or lack their off, to going a man down was woeful... a midfield two of Shinji and Clev? What do we expect to happen?! Carrick should have been straight on, not sent to warm-up 3 minutes later.
I tend to interpret that as stubbornness more than dithering but the end result is the same if he wont be decisive and change things when needed.
As an aside, maybe it was just me but yesterday I noticed an uptick in calls for SAF to "come back and rescue us", one or two articles in the mainstream media plus comments on Twitter etc. Not comfortable reading for those of us worrying about our post-Busby history repeating itself, this is exactly the same kind of pressure that was being exerted then, only how much worse must it be today with social media and the 24 hour news cycle? If fans are making such calls, who is to say the players arent thinking, or worse, uttering, similar thoughts?
Fergie, as ever tried to bring in young players - the question is how good they are or will be. Zaha clearly isnt impressing in training, Smalling has been awful, Jones seems not to know where his best position is and Powell is a total unknown quantity. Chicarito is good at what he does but we aren't lacking up front.
To me this highlights the problems Fergie faced - lack of money. Its one thing buying young talent with an eye on the future. Its another to buy young players and rely on them becoming really top players.
As it stands we need established quality to replace ageing players, or those who simply arent good enough. Other than RVP the only money spent has been on young players - because they have years to off-set against big fees, or potential sell on value. If that it how the club is going to be run then it will fall miles behind the top clubs.
Modern football has changed and Moyes needs to be given the backing that the other managers at other top clubs are given. The squad is poor and needs to be improved. If that means spending large sums of money then that's what needs to be done, or the club will be lucky to finish top 4.
If they dont do that consistently then the whole financial house of cards could come tumbling down. Some might consider that a daft thing to say - but the gap between United and the top sides is growing, and if we dont finsh top 4 this year, attracting the players to close that gap will be very difficult. Liverpool's plight shows what can happen if you slip - once out its difficult to get back in.
We've not played as badly as a lot of you make out. We just lack the finishing. If we'd have had a fully fit Rooney and RVP throughout I think things would look very different. We didn't, them's the breaks. I don't think we'd have won the league but we'd have been in the top 4.
Give the guy time. We're not going to win anything this season, that's happened before. We're not going to sign the players we as the fans want us to sign, that's pretty much the story of the last 23 years. If the players that have been identified aren't available until the summer, so be it. We need 3 positions filled up and some players to leave to allow the next generation to start coming through. I see what I believe Moyes is trying to do with the team and I agree with it. I hope we have some sort of resurgence and make the top 4. If we don't I'd rather we didn't qualify for the Europa and just have a season concentrating on the English competitions solely.
We have had an unbelievably bad run with injuries this year. The worst I can remember since we were playing Carrick in defence. In a way the injuries have exposed exactly the problems of Ferguson's squad that we've all been bitching about for the last so many years, even when we were winning trophies. Now they're out in the open for all to see and we don't have a manager at the helm who is responsible for them and able to paper over the cracks.
The main thing we need to see here is if Moyes can take this bollocking of a season, rise above it, adapt and learn. Can he mould this team to play to his vision and is his vision worthy of a title success year after year. These are things we won't even start to know until the end of the next season.
So yes it's frustrating, and everyone wants a magic wand approach. I prefer we develop a squad able to compete on all levels. I think what is more important is who Moyes sells rather than buys in over the coming transfer windows.
Give the guy time. We're not going to win anything this season, that's happened before. We're not going to sign the players we as the fans want us to sign, that's pretty much the story of the last 23 years. If the players that have been identified aren't available until the summer, so be it. We need 3 positions filled up and some players to leave to allow the next generation to start coming through. I see what I believe Moyes is trying to do with the team and I agree with it. I hope we have some sort of resurgence and make the top 4. If we don't I'd rather we didn't qualify for the Europa and just have a season concentrating on the English competitions solely.
We have had an unbelievably bad run with injuries this year. The worst I can remember since we were playing Carrick in defence. In a way the injuries have exposed exactly the problems of Ferguson's squad that we've all been bitching about for the last so many years, even when we were winning trophies. Now they're out in the open for all to see and we don't have a manager at the helm who is responsible for them and able to paper over the cracks.
The main thing we need to see here is if Moyes can take this bollocking of a season, rise above it, adapt and learn. Can he mould this team to play to his vision and is his vision worthy of a title success year after year. These are things we won't even start to know until the end of the next season.
So yes it's frustrating, and everyone wants a magic wand approach. I prefer we develop a squad able to compete on all levels. I think what is more important is who Moyes sells rather than buys in over the coming transfer windows.
Sorry, but you can't allow yourself, as a club, to get gradually weaker and weaker over a period of years, and then expect someone new to come in and just fix everything, in one summer, when the club refuse to sign any of the players he wanted.
How is it David Moyes fault exactly that our midfield is in the state it's in. It was in the same state last year, and the year before, and the year before that. Were you claiming Fergie wasn't up to it every time he just sat there allowing it to get worse? The fact he did this for nearly 5 fecking years is now entirely David Moyes's fault? That's completely ridiculous. There are people on here blaming Moyes for the exact same thing that they lamblasted people for daring to criticise Ferguson about. It's embarassing, and I'd be worried if the club started listening to people who can't look at something so obvious logically.
It comes down to the manager to motivate and get the best out of his players. I think it's fair to say Moyes isn't doing that at the moment. He's had time now to know his squad well enough not to be pissing around with the team nearly as much as he is.
On the other hand you have to take into account that every single player who performed for United last season, has been missing for significant time with injury. Van Persie and Carrick were the reason we won the league last season and you can argue that neither have been fully fit for a single game this. Rafael pretty much the same. You can't just ignore that being a factor either, because if you take their contributions away from last term, we'd have been absolutely shite. We managed to large shite in a large number of gaves even WITH their contribution.
And you can't just absolve the players of any blame either. They're supposed to be winners. Chelsea won a CL with De Matteo as manager, regularly performed well with people like Avram Grant or Benitez in charge. It's not acceptable to just go hiding behind the manager every time things aren't going well. It's completely feeble in fact. If you have anything about you as a player you go out and try to do something about it. That would be the bare minimum requirement of a professional sportsman for me. It's like a mailman delivering the post, as Keane would say. Yet there's about 3 people in our entire squad who you can say have even done that, and one of them's an 18 year old who hadn't even played before this season.
No. Nor was I surprised at the Routledge one. I didn't react at all when the ball went in.
I can't be bothered with typing out long arguments, but people need to wait at least until the season is over - if we can get in the top 4 then disaster (for this season) is averted. Going out of the cup yesterday was no crisis at all.
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