Moyes So Far!

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If Moyes had a Pep Guardiola type outburst moment,

"in this room he is the fuking chief, the fecking boss. But I do not have to compete with him in this room"

my respect for him would sky rocket. Moyes always tries to be so level-headed and sensible that he comes across weak as if he has no fight in him at all.

Like when Mourinho was mugging us off in the Summer by speaking about Rooney every fecking day, I wanted Moyes to just be like

"I don't give a shit. feck him. United are better than Chelsea anyway"

but he always tried to be polite "ooooh well if he said that fair do's, now excuse me, broke a nail. What am I like? Toodlepip Gentlemen!"
 
I don't buy the whole "Fergie left Moyes a mess" rubbish. When Fergie retired we were all waxing lyrical (and the media were) about how the squad had a great mixture of youth and experience and that there was enough scope for Moyes to put his stamp on it by strengthening mainly the midfield and a couple of other areas. Failure to do that in the summer, and spending big money on Fellaini who isn't good enough is what has created the mess. The squad hasn't just magically become shit in a couple of months. It needed a few reinforcements, signings which would have boosted the players and the fans and added competition for places which would take a few out of their comfort zones. The squad still doesn't need a complete overhaul because the players are not currently playing to their potential. That's what needs sorting first and foremost.
 
Amir said:
You may not be wrong. But I'll tell you this - if we were in a bit of a mess anyway, appointing Moyes to clear it out and improve things has been the wrong decision and only added to the mess, because he's got a lot to learn about managing in this level before he even makes big changes. Maybe he could have been the right man if we weren't in a different situation. But he's not now.
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I'm not sure there would have been a "right man". The club had it's head buried too far up it's own rear to realise the mess was there or do anything about it.

Moyes wanted to sign a left back and a couple of decent midfielders. If he'd actually been allowed or able to we'd probably be a lot better off at the moment. If the club wasn't living in lala land he wouldn't have even needed to because they're both issues that would have been resolved before he or anyone else even took charge.
 
LR7 said:
I don't buy the whole "Fergie left Moyes a mess" rubbish. When Fergie retired we were all waxing lyrical (and the media were) about how the squad had a great mixture of youth and experience and that there was enough scope for Moyes to put his stamp on it by strengthening mainly the midfield and a couple of other areas. Failure to do that in the summer, and spending big money on Fellaini who isn't good enough is what has created the mess. The squad hasn't just magically become shit in a couple of months. It needed a few reinforcements, signings which would have boosted the players and the fans and added competition for places which would take a few out of their comfort zones. The squad still doesn't need a complete overhaul because the players are not currently playing to their potential. That's what needs sorting first and foremost.
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Exactly my thoughts. There are some players that do need replacing, but the idea of destroying the squad is OTT.
 
noodlehair said:
I'm not sure there would have been a "right man". The club had it's head buried too far up it's own rear to realise the mess was there or do anything about it.

Moyes wanted to sign a left back and a couple of decent midfielders. If he'd actually been allowed or able to we'd probably be a lot better off at the moment. If the club wasn't living in lala land he wouldn't have even needed to because they're both issues that would have been resolved before he or anyone else even took charge.
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If we had our head buried too far up our own rears, we needed someone who'll shake things up. Who would have the confidence to do so, which unfortunately brings me back to Mourinho. In any event, Moyes was not going to be that man. I think it was Fergie who described in one of his books how the way Cantona looked around Old Trafford the first time he went in after we got him, was like he's thinking 'are you big enough for me?'. For Moyes, it was probably 'am I big enough for you'.

As for signings, he got one of the midfielders he wanted. Do you really believe he 'wasn't allowed' to sign players he wanted? Seems like he was fixed on very few players, one of them unrealistic, and wouldn't move on to realistic targets until it was too late. I don't think he had the knowledge of the top european market and players or the confidence to go for players he didn't know really well from England, until it was too late. Which again brings me to the conclusion he's the wrong man in the wrong place in the wrong time.
 
LR7 said:
I don't buy the whole "Fergie left Moyes a mess" rubbish. When Fergie retired we were all waxing lyrical (and the media were) about how the squad had a great mixture of youth and experience and that there was enough scope for Moyes to put his stamp on it by strengthening mainly the midfield and a couple of other areas. Failure to do that in the summer, and spending big money on Fellaini who isn't good enough is what has created the mess. The squad hasn't just magically become shit in a couple of months. It needed a few reinforcements, signings which would have boosted the players and the fans and added competition for places which would take a few out of their comfort zones. The squad still doesn't need a complete overhaul because the players are not currently playing to their potential. That's what needs sorting first and foremost.
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You could also argue that was the clubs fault, not Moyes though. It's clear they didn't give him the financial backing he needed to get the players he needed, isn't it? He wanted Baines but the club fecked around with some joint fee for him and Fellaini that ultimately ended up with us paying more for Fellaini and not getting Baines. He wanted Herrera and Woodward openly admitted the club weren't willing to pay anything close to the release fee, something Bilbao never, ever budge on with their players which makes his 'bidding' all the more baffling.

I would also definitely put part of the blame on SAF, he and us and the board have known about these problem areas in the squad for years and years now, yet refused to do anything about them, instead masking them by signing great attackers and defenders and relying on aging footballers and his own ability to inspire, he could've easily rectified the situation years ago but instead didn't do so and "coincidentally" enough, left the club just as these areas were reaching their absolute worst (left back and midfield, predominantly).

The mess was there long before Moyes took over, yes, he didn't fix it, but he had very little time in contrast to our previous great manager and very experienced CEO to do so.
 
LR7 said:
I don't buy the whole "Fergie left Moyes a mess" rubbish. When Fergie retired we were all waxing lyrical (and the media were) about how the squad had a great mixture of youth and experience and that there was enough scope for Moyes to put his stamp on it by strengthening mainly the midfield and a couple of other areas. Failure to do that in the summer, and spending big money on Fellaini who isn't good enough is what has created the mess. The squad hasn't just magically become shit in a couple of months. It needed a few reinforcements, signings which would have boosted the players and the fans and added competition for places which would take a few out of their comfort zones. The squad still doesn't need a complete overhaul because the players are not currently playing to their potential. That's what needs sorting first and foremost.
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I think it's been made clear this season that there's a few more players than people thought who need either replacing or phasing out.

It was being overlooked last season and the season before, because the shit performances were still yielding results.

But then my critcism of Moyes would be that he hasn't made any move in a direction towards doing this. There are players he keeps giving the same chances over and over, and players who he's never given a chance in the first place. Very few who you can say he's made any definitive or positive decision on. Even Rio was back yesterday...Why?
 
RedSky At Night said:
Exactly my thoughts. There are some players that do need replacing, but the idea of destroying the squad is OTT.
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The problem we have is that when someone is out the replacement significantly weakens the teams. Rio needs to go, Evra is getting overplayed because any back up cannot be trusted. We need a proper RB to cover for Rafael. Then a couple of midfielders. The defence is looking bad because they are being exposed by the the midfield. It isn't a major overhaul but it needs doing.
 
Amir said:
If we had our head buried too far up our own rears, we needed someone who'll shake things up. Who would have the confidence to do so, which unfortunately brings me back to Mourinho. In any event, Moyes was not going to be that man. I think it was Fergie who described in one of his books how the way Cantona looked around Old Trafford the first time he went in after we got him, was like he's thinking 'are you big enough for me?'. For Moyes, it was probably 'am I big enough for you'.

As for signings, he got one of the midfielders he wanted. Do you really believe he 'wasn't allowed' to sign players he wanted? Seems like he was fixed on very few players, one of them unrealistic, and wouldn't move on to realistic targets until it was too late. I don't think he had the knowledge of the top european market and players or the confidence to go for players he didn't know really well from England, until it was too late. Which again brings me to the conclusion he's the wrong man in the wrong place in the wrong time.
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Yeah but the Mourinho obsession is tiring. How do you know he would have shaken things up? He wouldn't have been able to do Woodward's job for him. Moyes was heavily criticised for "shaking things up" by removing two of the coaching staff. Mourinho does nothing other than kiss Fergie's rear so I actually find it hard to see him coming in and ripping everything Fergie had been doing apart.

He didn't go for people "too late". He clearly wanted Baines from the moment he arrived. The club faffed around. He clearly wanted a creative central midfielder from the moment he arrived...the club faffed around. He got Fellaini, after the season had started and Woodward had spent months faffing around instead of signing him for a publicly known buyout clause price which was below what we eventually paid for him. Moyes can't do much about people in the club who he's not the manager of being fecking morons, or the club being broke (whichever one it is).

Hard to see how Mourinho would have solved either of these problems either, especially seeing as exactly the same thing happened to him at Chelsea. He wanted a reliable striker, the club faffed around making idiotically small bids for Rooney instead of signing anyone.
 
noodlehair said:
I think it's been made clear this season that there's a few more players than people thought who need either replacing or phasing out.

It was being overlooked last season and the season before, because the shit performances were still yielding results.

But then my critcism of Moyes would be that he hasn't made any move in a direction towards doing this. There are players he keeps giving the same chances over and over, and players who he's never given a chance in the first place. Very few who you can say he's made any definitive or positive decision on. Even Rio was back yesterday...Why?
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It proved that Rio has lost it and unfortunately for Rio the injury has taken the temptation away from Moyes to ever play him again. He probably didn't want to risk losing Vidic again. He still has some value for the team.
 
Cina said:
You could also argue that was the clubs fault, not Moyes though. It's clear they didn't give him the financial backing he needed to get the players he needed, isn't it? He wanted Baines but the club fecked around with some joint fee for him and Fellaini that ultimately ended up with us paying more for Fellaini and not getting Baines. He wanted Herrera and Woodward openly admitted the club weren't willing to pay anything close to the release fee, something Bilbao never, ever budge on with their players which makes his 'bidding' all the more baffling.

I would also definitely put part of the blame on SAF, he and us and the board have known about these problem areas in the squad for years and years now, yet refused to do anything about them, instead masking them by signing great attackers and defenders and relying on aging footballers and his own ability to inspire, he could've easily rectified the situation years ago but instead didn't do so and "coincidentally" enough, left the club just as these areas were reaching their absolute worst (left back and midfield, predominantly).

The mess was there long before Moyes took over, yes, he didn't fix it, but he had very little time in contrast to our previous great manager and very experienced CEO to do so.
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Sure, the club (Woody) didn't do a good job (in fact it looks that it was a terrible job) but I think that part of the fault was Moyes for choosing the wrong targets.

We offered 15m on Baines (I thought that it was 20m but I was wrong) which is really as much as we should have offered. I mean we could have offered 30m and sign him, but that would have been stupid, right? Instead we could have gone for Coentrao who was available during the entire season (and IMO is better player which makes also more economically sense cause he is 4 years younger) but we went for him only on the last hour when it became clear that Everton won't sell Baines.

We could have definitely signed Herrera if we would have sacrificed Fellaini, his clause was only 3m higher than what we paid for Fellaini. It looks like Moyes thought that he is a better player than Herrera, and rightly or wrongly he would have been judged for that. We could have signed De Rossi if we had offered the 15m Roma wanted (though that would have been bad cause he would have killed himself later).

Essentially for the money we paid for Fellaini and offered for Baines we could have signed both De Rossi and Herrera, and get Coentrao on loan. If only it wasn't this stuborness to go for his ex-players at all costs. We could give him the benefit of the doubt cause it was his first summer here - and is very easy to talk after things have happened - but I think that he could have acted much better in the summer.
 
noodlehair said:
Yeah but the Mourinho obsession is tiring. How do you know he would have shaken things up? He wouldn't have been able to do Woodward's job for him. Moyes was heavily criticised for "shaking things up" by removing two of the coaching staff. Mourinho does nothing other than kiss Fergie's rear so I actually find it hard to see him coming in and ripping everything Fergie had been doing apart.

He didn't go for people "too late". He clearly wanted Baines from the moment he arrived. The club faffed around. He clearly wanted a creative central midfielder from the moment he arrived...the club faffed around. He got Fellaini, after the season had started and Woodward had spent months faffing around instead of signing him for a publicly known buyout clause price which was below what we eventually paid for him. Moyes can't do much about people in the club who he's not the manager of being fecking morons, or the club being broke (whichever one it is).

Hard to see how Mourinho would have solved either of these problems either, especially seeing as exactly the same thing happened to him at Chelsea. He wanted a reliable striker, the club faffed around making idiotically small bids for Rooney instead of signing anyone.
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The disaster for the club is that we knew Gill was going, then SAF dropped the bombshell that he was going as well. Woodward would have had to pull his finger out if SAF was still there. I would have been tempted to ask David Gill to stop on for the transfer window just to start Moyes off on a good footing, but they didn't and now the board are going to have to live with the consequences.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
The problem we have is that when someone is out the replacement significantly weakens the teams. Rio needs to go, Evra is getting overplayed because any back up cannot be trusted. We need a proper RB to cover for Rafael. Then a couple of midfielders. The defence is looking bad because they are being exposed by the the midfield. It isn't a major overhaul but it needs doing.
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Thing is, Rio is replaced by Jones. We still have 4 quality CB's in Vidic, Evans, Jones and Smalling.
Evra does need replacing, so bring in a new first choice LB, then have one of Buttner/Fabio as backup.
Midfield is the area that requires most work, if Jones is moved back to CB, then we'll need a Destroyer DM and a creative CM.
Then we probably need to replace one of Young/Valencia with a new winger.
RB just needs a young understudy imo as backup for Rafael.

At most we need 4 signings. 1 LB, 2 CM's and 1 Winger.
 
Revan said:
Sure, the club (Woody) didn't do a good job (in fact it looks that it was a terrible job) but I think that part of the fault was Moyes for choosing the wrong targets.

We offered 15m on Baines (I thought that it was 20m but I was wrong) which is really as much as we should have offered. I mean we could have offered 30m and sign him, but that would have been stupid, right? Instead we could have gone for Coentrao who was available during the entire season (and IMO is better player which makes also more economically sense cause he is 4 years younger) but we went for him only on the last hour when it became clear that Everton won't sell Baines.

We could have definitely signed Herrera if we would have sacrificed Fellaini, his clause was only 3m higher than what we paid for Fellaini. It looks like Moyes thought that he is a better player than Herrera, and rightly or wrongly he would have been judged for that. We could have signed De Rossi if we had offered the 15m Roma wanted (though that would have been bad cause he would have killed himself later).

Essentially for the money we paid for Fellaini and offered for Baines we could have signed both De Rossi and Herrera, and get Coentrao on loan. If only it wasn't this stuborness to go for his ex-players at all costs. We could give him the benefit of the doubt cause it was his first summer here - and is very easy to talk after things have happened - but I think that he could have acted much better in the summer.
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How are you so sure De Rossi was available?

Also, pretty sure the Coentrao thing went on so long because Madrid were unwilling to sell/loan him until they got another left back, which they didn't in the end, which is why we didn't get him in the end. I don't think the club just waited til the last day for the sake of it, we were linked to him long before then.

It shouldn't really be the club who dictate the fees, and it clearly was the club. if Moyes wanted Baines and Herrera, they should've been willing to pay for them, not feck around until the last minute and then leave him with no other options, instead they did feck around for a very long time and we ended up with neither. So what if we overpaid for them? I'd say that right now with a £20m Baines and a £30m Herrera we'd probably not be in remotely as shit a position as we currently are in, which could end up costing us a hell of a lot more financially this year than it would've cost the club to pay over the top for those two.
 
Siorac said:
Yeah, we played brilliantly, erm, once. At Leverkusen. And maybe at OT against them, at a stretch.

I wish people stopped citing the "lack of Rooney and RVP". Van Persie started 10 league games, Rooney started 16, they started 7 together. We were shite in many many games in which one or both played. It's an excuse, plain and simple. Other clubs had injuries too. We have a fecking huge squad precisely because of that.
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Especially considering Rooney was out injured last year as well for a period of time and when he played never really looked like he was giving too much of a feck. We still won the league comfortably.

Yes, we had a lot of injuries this year. What I don't want is to take that as an excuse for some of our performances this season. Also why do we have so many injuries anyway? Is it only bad luck? Or is our training regime a bit shit?
 
Cina said:
How are you so sure De Rossi was available?

Also, pretty sure the Coentrao thing went on so long because Madrid were unwilling to sell/loan him until they got another left back, which they didn't in the end, which is why we didn't get him in the end. I don't think the club just waited til the last day for the sake of it, we were linked to him long before then.

It shouldn't really be the club who dictate the fees, and it clearly was the club. if Moyes wanted Baines and Herrera, they should've been willing to pay for them, not feck around until the last minute and then leave him with no other options, instead they did feck around for a very long time and we ended up with neither. So what if we overpaid for them? I'd say that right now with a £30m Baines and a £20m Herrera we'd probably not be in remotely as shit a position as we currently are in, which could end up costing us a hell of a lot more financially this year than it would've cost the club to pay over the top for those two.
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You are right about that, the only criticism we could have was that they wasted so much time on Baines that if they had gone in a bit earlier for Coentrao it would have given Real more time to get said replacment.
 
He's saying the same thing after every defeat, that's what worries me. Essentially, he just keeps saying "I hope we will improve."

He's acting like each one is just a 'one off'.
 
smallred said:
Moyes so far? one word, appaling.

with 3 or 4 minutes to go yesterday, i was clear we were f8cked. the middle had no shape and it was kagawa and Cleverly in there, nobody was wide left. i looked down to the dugout and Carrick was ready to come on, (tracksuit bottoms off). said to myself great, he can help us regain our shape and close out the game. theres a throw in deep in our half and its the ideal time to make the sub...what does Moyes do? dither and dither as he has done all season and low and behold, they score about 30 seconds later. what a f*cking joke..the entire ground could feel a goal coming and he did nothing about it.

being down to 10 is no excuse, you can still make yourself solid and close out the game.

Southampton, Cardiff and Swansea now have got last minute goals against us - shows a lack of belief by the players.
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This is defintely one of my major concerns with Moyes so far. A manager at the top can make decisions quickly and be decisive. Moyes isn't showing this yet. Everton fans warned us that he can dither in-match and in the transfer market. This is something he needs to improve and quickly.

One thing in all this though, he's been desperately unlucky. Everything that could go wrong, is going wrong for him. He needs time and thankfully with the likes of Fergie and Charlton behind the scenes, Moyes will be given time. This summer is a big one.
 
datura said:
SAF, and the board (it wasn't a decision made by one individual, whatever people try and spin), saw the traits that they think suited the manager of Man Utd in Moyes. I think those are fairly obvious, but so far it hasn't worked out how any of them would have envisaged.

I think the key to it all is what we don't see i.e. the work at Carrington and his relationship with the players etc. If those are strong and it's just a case of time being needed, then there are enough good football people around to appreciate that and the owners have seen the value of continuity. If it's not all rosy there then there may be hard decisions to make.
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That's a great post. Frustrating for us as fans as we can only judge by what we see on the pitch, but very accurate nonetheless.
 
Cina said:
Also, pretty sure the Coentrao thing went on so long because Madrid were unwilling to sell/loan him until they got another left back, which they didn't in the end, which is why we didn't get him in the end. I don't think the club just waited til the last day for the sake of it, we were linked to him long before then.
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Madrid had a loan deal for a Granada player on hold until an hour before the deadline. At which point the player and his agent gave up waiting and he signed a loan deal with Benfica instead. We sent through the paperwork a few minutes before the deadline, too late for Madrid and their backup option.

Presumably we were still trying to sign Baines.
 
Spot on Datura! So if these issues exist with the training and the players, certain players then what to do? Get rid of the bad eggs? It would depend on how many bad eggs I suppose, but regarding the training, how bad can his methods be?? I wonder if there is a collective unhappiness which is not uncommon and we've seen other clubs with similar problems, like Liverpool for example under Hodgson, and it's amazing when a manager who is apparently unpopular with the players is replaced, just how the team responds, usually for the better.If this is the case by the way the fans should be in uproar because while they are fannying around behaving like spoilt children who want their own way, we are paying good money to watch them!
 
Bad
- shit summer transfers/conduct (part of the responsiblity of the shambles here has to lay with the club/SAF IMO as well). Trying to get really unrealistic transfer targets for really unrealistic price$$$.
- shouldn't have let go of the entire back room staff like he did, even though it was understandable
- lack of clear game plan/essentially no game plan. It's like deja'vu for last season, except we're even more toothless and some players are even worse
- doesn't seem to have the motivation/respect/trust of the players for a response
- overpaid for Fellaini, who atm, doesn't seem worth half of what we paid :(
- weird starting XI choices and subs - doesn't really seem to change it up when something clearly isn't working. (Valencia at RB/RM, Smalling at RB, Cleverley not performing too well etc)
- diving seems to have been on the inrease (Welbeck, Young, Januzaj, Young, Young...) ;)

Good
- managed to keep hold of Rooney - and get him motivated again (we'd be in an even worse position without his contribution)
- Januzaj :drool:

Neutral/Mitigating
- injuries haven't been too kind to him (but it hasn't been too kind for us over a number of seasons, so not much of an excuse really)
- players need to take a large part of the blame, most of whom haven't been anywhere near United quality for a good while tbh. Maybe they see it as a free-for-all to just not give a feck, thinking the manager will shoulder the blame. Perhaps they don't respect him...still...they getting paid a feck load to at least give a feck.
- diving: again, the players need to take some blame

I want him to succeed and I've backed him from day one. But it's becoming increasingly difficult to defend him. It's ok to lose. We all expected it and were ok with not winning/challenging for the title. But the tame, surrenderous (is that even a word?) manner in which so many games and defeats have panned out, is unacceptable IMO.

Turn it around fella.
 
noodlehair said:
Yeah but the Mourinho obsession is tiring. How do you know he would have shaken things up? He wouldn't have been able to do Woodward's job for him. Moyes was heavily criticised for "shaking things up" by removing two of the coaching staff. Mourinho does nothing other than kiss Fergie's rear so I actually find it hard to see him coming in and ripping everything Fergie had been doing apart.

He didn't go for people "too late". He clearly wanted Baines from the moment he arrived. The club faffed around. He clearly wanted a creative central midfielder from the moment he arrived...the club faffed around. He got Fellaini, after the season had started and Woodward had spent months faffing around instead of signing him for a publicly known buyout clause price which was below what we eventually paid for him. Moyes can't do much about people in the club who he's not the manager of being fecking morons, or the club being broke (whichever one it is).

Hard to see how Mourinho would have solved either of these problems either, especially seeing as exactly the same thing happened to him at Chelsea. He wanted a reliable striker, the club faffed around making idiotically small bids for Rooney instead of signing anyone.
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Regarding replacing the coaching staff, you could see that as shaking things up, or making life more comfortable for himself with people he knows. I didn't have a problem with letting Phelan, Meulensteen and Steele go anyway, by the way. I still don't.

I'm not saying Mourinho would have tore everything apart and started a fresh, it's simply not needed, but I'm not as sure he'd have started with the idea he has to give everyone a fresh chance, and he'd also be more likely to have ideas about players we can bring.

Moyes wanted Baines, but did he have any input regarding the fee? Did he simply tell Woodward to get him, or did he set a ceiling for the price? I think he said he wasn't going to pay what Bilbao wanted for Herrera, so he surely had some input regarding fees. As for the create midfielder he wanted, what do you mean 'the club faffed around'? We went for Fabregas, it was never on, but it doesn't seem as though Moyes suggested another option until late on. If he said 'I want Messi' and we didn't get him, would that be Woodward's fault?

All of this doesn't change the fact this season has been unacceptable. We're not at the level of Bayern or Barca, we all accept that, but thinking Fergie left us in a mess is silly. We weren't in a brilliant position, but it was appointing the wrong manager which has now actually put us in a real mess.
 
I'd love to have confidence in him, I'd love it if he proved the doubters wrong. I just can't see him turning it around I'm afraid, the last six months have gone from bad to worse with no encouraging signs.

I backed him from the start and to a degree I still do, however he's making it very hard and I wouldn't blame other when they say they don't want him at the club. No matter what anyone says it's understandable that fans are starting to get on his back, he like any other manager is paid very well to do a job, if he fails he deserves to be sacked, it's really that simple.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Are we not playing Moyes's style anyway?

At Everton he liked to channel all his attacks down the wing. Granted that it was an avenue of attack that Fergie liked too but under SAF we mixed it up a fair bit as well. All the stats point to our style regressing under Moyes too, we have become more direct and linear in our attack play.

What is your opinion on the degree to which a manager shapes the confidence and performance of a side regardless of the tactics? Do you think that Moyes has lost parts of the dressing room yet?
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If the manager keeps making weird selections then players do look at each other but Moyes hasn't done this and no he hasn't lost any part of the dressing room imo other than the ones who he is shipping out. Rio Butner Anderson obvious ones so far. The problem for me is not the manager but the centre midfield. We have been crying out for someone to partner Carrick out for long enough and now he's been out the pressure on the defence is huge. I remember Vidic and Rio with a fit Fletcher, Carrick and Hargreaves and what they looked like without Fletcher and Hargreaves it was night and day. Our midfield is very weak and Cleverley is neither a gosl scoring, box to box, creater or defensive midfielder and he seems to be 1st choice to partner Carrick.
 
I think he had plenty of money in the summer to spend and believe he still has. I think our problems in the transfer market stem from Moyes and Woodward not the Glazers, I think the money is there.
 
I genuinely feel sorry for him. We've played some shit stuff but everything that could go wrong, has. Say I've got my head in the sand if you want but I really think with some investment we can turn it round and start challenging again under Moyes. Not five years away, two, three tops.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
I genuinely feel sorry for him. We've played some shit stuff but everything that could go wrong, has. Say I've got my head in the sand if you want but I really think with some investment we can turn it round and start challenging again under Moyes. Not five years away, two, three tops.
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Think you are 100% correct, plus with Gill retiring and the Rooney saga he has had a lot to deal with a very unusual set of circumstances in hindsight Gill should have stayed a year later or if possible gone a year earlier.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
It proved that Rio has lost it and unfortunately for Rio the injury has taken the temptation away from Moyes to ever play him again. He probably didn't want to risk losing Vidic again. He still has some value for the team.
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He didn't have to play Rio at all though. If he'd managed Fabio properly at any point he could have put him at fullback and kept Smalling in the centre, where he'd been starting to build up a partnership with Evans. Now instead, we're no further along than the day Moyes took charge.

I don't really understand what Moyes is doing. At first it was getting to know the squad and which players he can rely on. Now it just seems to be faffing around for the sake of it. What is our first choice set up in any area of the pitch? I haven't got a fecking clue and haven't seen any evidence that Moyes himself even has one, let alone an idea of a strongest team or core of players to build a backbone around. That's the thing that's starting to annoy me. You can't possibly build a team when you dont even have a clue what your team is.
 
A friend of mine who supports Swansea but who didnt see the game said to me, "but it wasnt your first team was it?" To which I could only respond, "what the feck actually is our first team these days?" I honestly have no idea.
 
Amir said:
Regarding replacing the coaching staff, you could see that as shaking things up, or making life more comfortable for himself with people he knows. I didn't have a problem with letting Phelan, Meulensteen and Steele go anyway, by the way. I still don't.

I'm not saying Mourinho would have tore everything apart and started a fresh, it's simply not needed, but I'm not as sure he'd have started with the idea he has to give everyone a fresh chance, and he'd also be more likely to have ideas about players we can bring.

Moyes wanted Baines, but did he have any input regarding the fee? Did he simply tell Woodward to get him, or did he set a ceiling for the price? I think he said he wasn't going to pay what Bilbao wanted for Herrera, so he surely had some input regarding fees. As for the create midfielder he wanted, what do you mean 'the club faffed around'? We went for Fabregas, it was never on, but it doesn't seem as though Moyes suggested another option until late on. If he said 'I want Messi' and we didn't get him, would that be Woodward's fault?

All of this doesn't change the fact this season has been unacceptable. We're not at the level of Bayern or Barca, we all accept that, but thinking Fergie left us in a mess is silly. We weren't in a brilliant position, but it was appointing the wrong manager which has now actually put us in a real mess.
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I doubt Moyes has too much say on putting a "ceiling" on how much of the Glazer's money they want spent on players. I doubt he told Woodward to prat around with Fabregas in the manner he did. I exceptionally doubt he told Woodward to wait until Fellaini's buyout clause expired, then pay a figure above it, about 6 weeks after he could have done with having Fellaini training with the squad. In fact, I'd put money on him not having anything to do with this, because it's the sort of thing no one, no matter how useless, who actually manages the team, would be thick enough to do. It's either a budget issue, or the club is employing morons.

How do you know the Herrera deal was a last minute thing? All of the semi reliable evidence to emerge suggests it was an ongoing negotiation where United simply wouldn't pay the asking price. #

Manchester United live in a fantasy land at the moment when it comes to their fee setting policy. This is confirmed by Ferguson, in writing, in his book. They sit around and decide how much the club values a player at, then ignore the real world where the market is above their own evaluation, and where clubs don't always want or need to sell for an extortionately low price. This obviously isn't something that Moyes has decided to implement, because otherwise it wouldn't be in Ferguson's fecking book, would it?

I can understand some critcism of Moyes, and frustration with our performances, sure. It needs to be addressed because it's nowhre near good enough if the club aims to still compete at the same level, but there's too many people who just want to blame Moyes for anything because they didn't get their precious Mourinho as manager. If we did get Mourinho, and were currently in 7th place (and with the factors Moyes has had to deal with I wouldn't see it as THAT improbable), the same people would be defending every single thing he did.

"It was appointing the wrong manager that put us in a real mess" is a great line considering your main scope of blame is him failing to address the exact same issues Ferguson could and should have addressed at any time over the past few years. The fact we did ok under Fergie in spite of this in itself proves there are other factors which you should be considering, even if you do then still remain determined to twist everything back to being solely down to Moyes.
 
togg said:
I have a feeling Moyes is not sleeping well at the moment..wonder what he says to his wife when he walks through the front door?
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"I have a bunch of cowards playing for me and I am at breaking point, but i'll still be picking up my cheque, love, so don't worry."
 
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