Moyes So Far!

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marjen said:
I remember a poster complaining about "resorting to the Valencia cross-field pass" whenever we didn't get our game going under SAF. Perhaps this is what's happening? Our players aren't confident in their ability to thread balls into the strikers, doesn't make advanced runs from midfield and doesn't dare dribbling with the ball or try anything risky, so we end up resorting to the old method of pinging it out to Valencia? After all, it's the "safe" option, right?

I just wish Moyes would force our players to focus more of our game on playing through the middle of the field. I know we've got the quality in our squad to do it, players like Rooney, Carrick, Kagawa, Nani, van Persie and Januzaj are all creative players who can thread a pass through and combine in tight spaces, but we need to alter our game quite significantly if that's going to start happening.
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Aye. I guess this is kind of what I'm saying really. I'm saying, I don't think Moyes has specifically made things worse on purpose, I just think he hasn't done enough to fix it.
 
marjen said:
I would assume we've simply not worked on our attacking game from open play to a large degree, so as a result we're resorting to the Valencia-pass when we don't trust the ability to play our way through the middle.

It fits with the impression of Moyes as a coach that's very focused on organization and physical fitness that we'll have had less time to work on the attacking game.
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Could be so. Could also be we don't really have any technically excellent coaches anymore either. We have an old school first team coach, and we have Neville and Giggs who both played a large portion (in the case of Giggs, all) their careers under Ferguson. Maybe our coaches lack the technical knowledge to really change our game significantly. Giggs has only seen one style of play at United... maybe he doesn't have the knowledge to implement another strategy. Guess this falls on Moyes' head too, although I don't think he wanted Rene to go. Was more a result of the fact Moyes would take training, marginalising Rene's role.
 
marjen said:
I would assume we've simply not worked on our attacking game from open play to a large degree, so as a result we're resorting to the Valencia-pass when we don't trust the ability to play our way through the middle.

It fits with the impression of Moyes as a coach that's very focused on organization and physical fitness that we'll have had less time to work on the attacking game.
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This is the worry. Ive heard from far too many people about the current training regime - all physical work. We've also seen the Everton players remark on how refreshing training has been as they have been using the ball more.

Of course, none of us really know. Things arent going well and we are all looking for a reason. But, it is a concern of mine.
 
rpitroda said:
Well they did - Carrick and RVP have been injured. As I posted above, this has a significant effect on our ability to play through the middle.
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Last season Van Persie and Rooney started just 21 out of the 38 league games together. This time it's 7 out of 20 - a worse ratio to be sure but not that much worse. And while you might say Van Persie hasn't been as good as he was last season, it's also true that Rooney has been much better.

I'm not sure how much Carrick actually contributes to playing through the middle, considering he's really good at pinging the ball out wide to the wingers, the way Rooney often does it. He also started 12 out of 20 league games so it's not like he's been out the entire time. I also don't buy it that with the likes of Welbeck, Januzaj and Kagawa we simply must have Van Persie in order to have any hope of playing through the middle.

We just have no clue how to break teams down in the final third. It's not just an issue of personnel, clearly.
 
I find it really interesting how in this thread, depending on your outlook on Moyes, you can argue points in two completely different ways.

To me that suggests that we are still in a big period of unknown where people like who are optimistic could be wrong, and people who don't think Moyes will do the job may also be wrong.

It's obviously sad that we aren't performing well right now, but I do feel excited and intrigued about what lies ahead. Gonna be a tough but enjoyable ride.
 
Siorac said:
Last season Van Persie and Rooney started just 21 out of the 38 league games together. This time it's 7 out of 20 - a worse ratio to be sure but not that much worse. And while you might say Van Persie hasn't been as good as he was last season, it's also true that Rooney has been much better.

I'm not sure how much Carrick actually contributes to playing through the middle, considering he's really good at pinging the ball out wide to the wingers, the way Rooney often does it. He also started 12 out of 20 league games so it's not like he's been out the entire time. I also don't buy it that with the likes of Welbeck, Januzaj and Kagawa we simply must have Van Persie in order to have any hope of playing through the middle.

We just have no clue how to break teams down in the final third. It's not just an issue of personnel, clearly.
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Carrick is very important for our attacking game through the middle IMO. He's excellent at breaking the opposition midfield with a first time pass.

When he's not on song/injured our game suffers as a result, because the service into our dangerous front men are restricted, so I do think his form is a worry and a part of our problems.

They extend beyond that, surely, but it's a part of it.
 
Siorac said:
Last season Van Persie and Rooney started just 21 out of the 38 league games together. This time it's 7 out of 20 - a worse ratio to be sure but not that much worse. And while you might say Van Persie hasn't been as good as he was last season, it's also true that Rooney has been much better.

I'm not sure how much Carrick actually contributes to playing through the middle, considering he's really good at pinging the ball out wide to the wingers, the way Rooney often does it. He also started 12 out of 20 league games so it's not like he's been out the entire time. I also don't buy it that with the likes of Welbeck, Januzaj and Kagawa we simply must have Van Persie in order to have any hope of playing through the middle.

We just have no clue how to break teams down in the final third. It's not just an issue of personnel, clearly.
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I'm not saying it is. Of course it isn't just a personnel issue. But you're also wrong if you think the blame lies solely with Moyes. And Van Persie hasn't been the talisman he was last season but he's been effective when he plays - so no, I wasn't gonna use that argument.

I wonder how many of those 21 games were the big matches though. I bet a very, very large portion. This year, I don't think they've played together in any of our big games (but I'm not sure?).

Carrick contributed greatly to playing through the middle. Last year he played a lot of balls over the top to RVP/Rooney, and also on the floor too.

Like I said in my opening line, it isn't JUST a personnel issue. Moyes takes responsibility here too. But if you think it's all Moyes' fault; that the players walk into training and someone plays a pass in between the lines and Moyes gets up and shouts "NO - PASS TO VALENCIA," then you are also very very mistaken.
 
marjen said:
Carrick is very important for our attacking game through the middle IMO. He's excellent at breaking the opposition midfield with a first time pass.

When he's not on song/injured our game suffers as a result, because the service into our dangerous front men are restricted, so I do think his form is a worry and a part of our problems.

They extend beyond that, surely, but it's a part of it.
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Yeah, fair enough. I'm just in a bit of a dark mood. Our attacking game should not suffer because our main defensive midfielder is out. feck this midfield debacle.
 
rpitroda said:
I'm not saying it is. Of course it isn't just a personnel issue. But you're also wrong if you think the blame lies solely with Moyes. And Van Persie hasn't been the talisman he was last season but he's been effective when he plays - so no, I wasn't gonna use that argument.

I wonder how many of those 21 games were the big matches though. I bet a very, very large portion. This year, I don't think they've played together in any of our big games (but I'm not sure?).

Carrick contributed greatly to playing through the middle. Last year he played a lot of balls over the top to RVP/Rooney, and also on the floor too.

Like I said in my opening line, it isn't JUST a personnel issue. Moyes takes responsibility here too. But if you think it's all Moyes' fault; that the players walk into training and someone plays a pass in between the lines and Moyes gets up and shouts "NO - PASS TO VALENCIA," then you are also very very mistaken.
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This is very true. Its what he's doing to correct the behaviour that is important.
 
rpitroda said:
I'm not saying it is. Of course it isn't just a personnel issue. But you're also wrong if you think the blame lies solely with Moyes. And Van Persie hasn't been the talisman he was last season but he's been effective when he plays - so no, I wasn't gonna use that argument.

I wonder how many of those 21 games were the big matches though. I bet a very, very large portion. This year, I don't think they've played together in any of our big games (but I'm not sure?).

Carrick contributed greatly to playing through the middle. Last year he played a lot of balls over the top to RVP/Rooney, and also on the floor too.

Like I said in my opening line, it isn't JUST a personnel issue. Moyes takes responsibility here too. But if you think it's all Moyes' fault; that the players walk into training and someone plays a pass in between the lines and Moyes gets up and shouts "NO - PASS TO VALENCIA," then you are also very very mistaken.
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Yeah, you're right about Carrick, I'm just a bit pissed and have a stomach ache for some reason so even he gets little credit from me.

Big games or not, we haven't been using the pitch as effectively as last season, whether Rooney and RvP were playing or not. Not in the big games, not against the smaller sides.

I do not think it's solely Moyes' fault, I just don't see any justification for your opinion that Moyes will change it over time. To me it looks more like blind faith than anything. Up to this point our play has become even more predictable and wingplay-focused than ever. Moyes has made no attempt to change this, to encourage a bit of variety. It could be down to a lack of confidence and belief but that's also the manager's responsibility. He had it rough with injuries, yes. But even with a near full strength team our football was very much the same.
 
LonelyFire said:
This is very true. Its what he's doing to correct the behaviour that is important.
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The problem is, seemingly nothing. You know fully well I am an optimist on Moyes, but if there was one thing that is concerning me the most it is this. He isn't doing enough to correct the mistakes we see week in week out.
 
Siorac said:
Yeah, you're right about Carrick, I'm just a bit pissed and have a stomach ache for some reason so even he gets little credit from me.

Big games or not, we haven't been using the pitch as effectively as last season, whether Rooney and RvP were playing or not. Not in the big games, not against the smaller sides.

I do not think it's solely Moyes' fault, I just don't see any justification for your opinion that Moyes will change it over time. To me it looks more like blind faith than anything. Up to this point our play has become even more predictable and wingplay-focused than ever. Moyes has made no attempt to change this, to encourage a bit of variety. It could be down to a lack of confidence and belief but that's also the manager's responsibility. He had it rough with injuries, yes. But even with a near full strength team our football was very much the same.
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I agree. With Ferguson we did have much more dynamism. We would always play with our wide men very wide. But so far it seems we make the pitch wide and play down the wide areas only. Under Fergie, we'd make it wide but then utilize the space it created in the middle too. We still often played down the wings more than not, but we did have an alternative which we don't.

Regarding Moyes, it's not blind faith. I'm not going to lie and say I'm sure he will come good, but I am optimistic things will change. Not blind faith, but from what I think based on what I've seen. Everton, despite what everyone say about them, were not a hoofball team last year. They played some really good football, and yes Martinez takes credit for what he has done this year but Moyes is very much responsible too for setting the foundations and beginning that progression.

But, to tell you the truth, the reason I defend Moyes is because I truly believe a lot of what is happening is out of his hands. Seems a ridiculous thing to say, he is the manager. But I firmly believe this is a unique situation for any club in most of our lifetimes. It isn't a simple case of one manager replacing another like in all other managerial switches. I also think it comes from my experience from when a boss I worked for and we got on together really well left to another job. It's not my technical qualities it effects, but my mental position. And that's just me. The impact at United is 100000000000000000x.

The key basis for which I defend Moyes is not because I fundamentally disagree with what you are saying, because your points are valid. I just think there has not been enough time to make a fair and knowledgable judgement, that's all. He's trying to change a club run in the same way for 25 years. Players who have learnt one set of tactics with minor alterations. Players who saw SAF as a second father. Players who had protection, players who have been shielded from many aspects and almost hand-held form a mental aspect due to what SAF did. I feel our underlying issue is in the mind, not in our tactics, or training, or any "hard" skill.
 
It's obvious the problem is complex there is no such a thing as one reason of our bad form.

1) The transition itself- every change of that caliber was meant to cause some problems. When you lose the best manger in the league, a manger who has been around for 26 years...when you lose the best CEO in the same summer...well that's more than certain that the problems would occur

2) Our squad - as many here said before, we have been gradually getting worse. Replacing a 28 y/o Vidic with Evans is not exactly a step forward, replacing Ronaldo with Valencia is dare i say - a step backwards, replacing Scholes at his prime with re-called from retirement Scholes are just prime examples. We also put to much attention on versatility over quality. I'm sure that part of the reason for signing Young was that he can play 3 postions. Great, the point is he is not very good at any of them

3) Moyes and his tactics- it's been said before but neither Everton nor us has ever played a fluid, modern football. It has been football taken from the 90's, old -fashioned slow and predictable.

4) Moyes and fitness - is it just me or have we looked Travellers for the most of the season? honestly...our energy levels are seem so low it's incredible.

5) The lack of Trust in Moyes- i'm sure that players have their reservations about Moyes too. I'm not suggesting they are playing against him but I'm sure some of them don't want to go that extra mile for their new manager.

IMO it's hard to blame Moyes alone for this joke of a season. It's a mixture of badly managed transition, terrible summer, aging squad but Moyes is responsible for archaic set up, tactics and fitness regime.
 
rpitroda said:
I agree. With Ferguson we did have much more dynamism. We would always play with our wide men very wide. But so far it seems we make the pitch wide and play down the wide areas only. Under Fergie, we'd make it wide but then utilize the space it created in the middle too. We still often played down the wings more than not, but we did have an alternative which we don't.

Regarding Moyes, it's not blind faith. I'm not going to lie and say I'm sure he will come good, but I am optimistic things will change. Not blind faith, but from what I think based on what I've seen. Everton, despite what everyone say about them, were not a hoofball team last year. They played some really good football, and yes Martinez takes credit for what he has done this year but Moyes is very much responsible too for setting the foundations and beginning that progression.

But, to tell you the truth, the reason I defend Moyes is because I truly believe a lot of what is happening is out of his hands. Seems a ridiculous thing to say, he is the manager. But I firmly believe this is a unique situation for any club in most of our lifetimes. It isn't a simple case of one manager replacing another like in all other managerial switches. I also think it comes from my experience from when a boss I worked for and we got on together really well left to another job. It's not my technical qualities it effects, but my mental position. And that's just me. The impact at United is 100000000000000000x.

The key basis for which I defend Moyes is not because I fundamentally disagree with what you are saying, because your points are valid. I just think there has not been enough time to make a fair and knowledgable judgement, that's all. He's trying to change a club run in the same way for 25 years. Players who have learnt one set of tactics with minor alterations. Players who saw SAF as a second father. Players who had protection, players who have been shielded from many aspects and almost hand-held form a mental aspect due to what SAF did. I feel our underlying issue is in the mind, not in our tactics, or training, or any "hard" skill.
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Fair enough. I very much hope I can come back to this post at the end of the season and say you were right and I was wrong.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
The problem with having faith in Moyes is that currently it's largely based on nothing other than he was Fergie's choice. Whether or not Fergie should have even picked his own successor was another matter.
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I always got the feeling that SAF didnt want Mourinho taking over. Maybe there was more ego in his recomendation that we first realised i.e. Didnt want a bigger ego than his coming in ??? With his parting shot at Rooney and controversial book, it makes you wonder??

Moyes is a hard worker, willing to learn and will do whatever it takes to get us back on track. He's on a learning curve, and clearly has to up his game, but I still think/hope/pray he will
 
On a more positive note: Isn't it true that his teams always tended to do better in the second half of the season?

I would guess this has to do with his fitness regime during pre-season, if that really is the case. Built to last the season, not start with a bang.
 
marjen said:
On a more positive note: Isn't it true that his teams always tended to do better in the second half of the season?

I would guess this has to do with his fitness regime during pre-season, if that really is the case. Built to last the season, not start with a bang.
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I have mentioned this a few times, his Everton side's were usually out of contention by January then hit form in the second half of the season, looks to have happened to us as well. I wouldn't count that as a positive though.
 
marjen said:
On a more positive note: Isn't it true that his teams always tended to do better in the second half of the season?

I would guess this has to do with his fitness regime during pre-season, if that really is the case. Built to last the season, not start with a bang.
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Indeed. Everton were undefeated at home in 2013 until the defeat a week ago (to Sunderland?). Half of that was down to Moyes so I'd love to see us go unbeaten at home (and ideally away too =P) for the first half of 2014 hehe.
 
Smores said:
It seems to be a widely held view on here that Fergie would have continued to win things with this team but I don't think he'd have fared hugely better. If you look at our record over the past couple of seasons without key players and our record this season with injuries that it looks almost inevitable that we were going to drop points. Especially when we've had all of the key dependencies out at once many times.

It's put on Moyes but i've read numerous times on here last season that if Carrick/Rafael/RvP got injured we'd be fecked and that Evra is an increasing liability. Now that they have been the fact we're fecked has become Moyes fault.

Moyes biggest challenge is making us less susceptible to losing key men (which was caused by Fergie) by doing some decent transfer business. There's the tactical shift he needs to implement after we're stable but getting us back into the top 4 will be as a result of sorting out these huge weaknesses.
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There is no chance Fergie is outside the top 4 with the same squad and same circumstances (ie. Injuries). No chance. Other teams have all missed several players at a time, namely Liverpool and Arsenal. It's the manager's job to cope.
 
A telling sentence within this paragraph from a Guardian article:

...an attack that, in the absence of the injured Robin van Persie, was carried by an unfit Wayne Rooney against Spurs. "If I could rest him, I would," said Moyes, manager of one of the wealthiest clubs in world football, of Rooney on Wednesday.
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BarneyLFC said:
There is no chance Fergie is outside the top 4 with the same squad and same circumstances (ie. Injuries). No chance. Other teams have all missed several players at a time, namely Liverpool and Arsenal. It's the manager's job to cope.
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Indeed. United have struggled to cope with around three injuries - we've had seven/eight at times this season and still won games.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
It's far from strange. To come into a place where one man has ruled for 30 years and leave everything in place would be certain suicide. No manager would ever be able to stamp himself on the team. He's having a hard enough time as it is. Contrary to those believing it's a problem, it's probably one of the smartest things he's done.
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...yeah, cos that's worked out well for him!
Why fix it when it ain't broke?!
 
alastair said:
Indeed. United have struggled to cope with around three injuries - we've had seven/eight at times this season and still won games.
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That's not true though.

Rafael, RvP, Rooney, Carrick, Fellaini and Nani's been missing lately.

In general I agree though you've coped far better with your injury troubles than we've done.
 
This season we have missed the following:

Gerrard, Sakho, Enrique, Johnson, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan, Suarez, Cissokho, Aspas, Coutinho and I'm probably forgetting some. Each of those have been missing for multiple games at some point or another.

Currently we're without Sakho, Enrique, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan and Suarez and Henderson aren't fully fit and are carrying knocks.
 
marjen said:
That's not true though.

Rafael, RvP, Rooney, Carrick, Fellaini and Nani's been missing lately.

In general I agree though you've coped far better with your injury troubles than we've done.
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Oh sorry, I haven't really been counting Fellaini and Nani hasn't been in the first team really this season.

It's clear you've had injuries but I read a lot on here about how you've got a great squad which is really deep whilst Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs are paper thin. Clearly untrue.
 
alastair said:
Oh sorry, I haven't really been counting Fellaini and Nani hasn't been in the first team really this season.

It's clear you've had injuries but I read a lot on here about how you've got a great squad which is really deep whilst Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs are paper thin. Clearly untrue.
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We're missing quality not quantity. Having said that, our squad clearly got more quality than we've shown so far.
 
BarneyLFC said:
This season we have missed the following:

Gerrard, Sakho, Enrique, Johnson, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan, Suarez, Cissokho, Aspas, Coutinho and I'm probably forgetting some. Each of those have been missing for multiple games at some point or another.

Currently we're without Sakho, Enrique, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan and Suarez and Henderson aren't fully fit and are carrying knocks.
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If you're going to list players like that, and with the injuries they've sustained then United have missed:

Jones, Rafael, Vidic, Ferdinand, Smalling, Fellaini, Nani, Anderson, Cleverley, Carrick, Fletcher, Kagawa, Hernandez, Rooney, RVP, and Welbeck.
 
marjen said:
We're missing quality not quantity. Having said that, our squad clearly got more quality than we've shown so far.
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Indeed. I still think though, as I've said on here before, that your first team is weaker than the current top three and that's the main factor behind your problems.
 
alastair said:
Indeed. I still think though, as I've said on here before, that your first team is weaker than the current top three and that's the main factor behind your problems.
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True that. We have a lot of "squad" players. Apart form a few, no real oustanding or key first teamers. Thats why our team changes so regularly. Other than Rafael when fit, DDG, Rooney, Carrick and RVP, and Evra, all the other positions are up for grab.
 
Manchester United are now enduring their worst home league form for over a decade.


The last time the Old Trafford crowd witnessed more than three home league defeats in a single season was during the 2001-02 campaign - in which they lost a total of six.
In that season, Arsenal, Bolton, Chelsea, Liverpool, Middlesbrough and West Ham all left Old Trafford with three points. It was a campaign that ended with Arsenal at the top of the pile and Liverpool in second place ahead of United, who finished the season third.
New Manchester United manager David Moyes has now been left red faced by Spurs, Newcastle, Everton and West Brom. It's been suggested that the Old Trafford 'fear factor' has gone, and with games against great rivals Manchester City and Liverpool still to come, the number of home defeats could yet increase.
 
That fecking fear factor has disappeared so many times over the last two decades that you'd think it's playing some retarded game of hide and seek.

Yes, dear journalists, we're shite at Old Trafford this season, we noticed. Stop using that bloody annoying phrase and just say it like it is.
 
If ever a profession lived only in the 'now,' it's journalism. A few weeks back the garbage viewpoint of choice was how our victory over Leverkusen meant that Moyes was better in Europe than SAF.
 
rpitroda said:
If you're going to list players like that, and with the injuries they've sustained then United have missed:

Jones, Rafael, Vidic, Ferdinand, Smalling, Fellaini, Nani, Anderson, Cleverley, Carrick, Fletcher, Kagawa, Hernandez, Rooney, RVP, and Welbeck.
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Few of those have been long term as well. We aren't talking about simply a few weeks with a few of them.
 
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