The thing that I find most strange about moyes is that he didnt trust our coaches or our scouts. Did he think that Sir Alex was an idiot for surrounding himself with that staff? Moyes comes across as someone who is scared to make a mistake, which I can understand seeing as he is coming from everton and this is his first job but he then goes and sign fellaini which confounds me.
Moyes So Far!
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The thing that I find most strange about moyes is that he didnt trust our coaches or our scouts. Did he think that Sir Alex was an idiot for surrounding himself with that staff? Moyes comes across as someone who is scared to make a mistake, which I can understand seeing as he is coming from everton and this is his first job but he then goes and sign fellaini which confounds me.
Or we can sign someone of equal quality from another team who needs the money desperately rather than overpaying for a player who isnt anything special eitherway.
It's far from strange. To come into a place where one man has ruled for 30 years and leave everything in place would be certain suicide. No manager would ever be able to stamp himself on the team. He's having a hard enough time as it is. Contrary to those believing it's a problem, it's probably one of the smartest things he's done.
Because the past three years the problem wasnt this bad? We have either won the PL or being runner ups by not more than two points for the past six/seven years now. Sir Alex was the manager, he made a judgement call that we didnt need to strengthen and the results proved him right.
First of all, we didnt keep the same staff for thirty of those years, it continuously changed and evolved. And second, care to list examples of when it was certain suicide?
Nobody knows the ins and outs of coaching/management at our level so it's a bit harsh/naive to keep criticising Moyes for bringing his coaches. There's no real proof to say how well they're doing, they could be better for all we know.
There are some pretty obvious reasons for having a reshuffle though. We know that Fergie no longer took training and therefore employed people to do that. Moyes does take training and therefore needs to let some go or move them elsewhere. It seems he tried to do that with Muelensteen.
There are some pretty obvious reasons for having a reshuffle though. We know that Fergie no longer took training and therefore employed people to do that. Moyes does take training and therefore needs to let some go or move them elsewhere. It seems he tried to do that with Muelensteen.
I have no problems with Moyes for bringing his own coaching staff or not just accepting everything the United scouts may have been telling him. It's his job now, he makes the decisions and it can't be easy to do that based on recommendations of people you don't really know. It must be said the whole changing of the guard wasn't done well. Still, it's not a good enough excuse for everything we've seen since August.
If people want to criticise the manager then that's fine. The whole changing of coaches isn't worth discussing though because we just don't know what effect it has had and it's just guesswork. Most managers do the same thing and Solskjaer was discussing it today saying that it's the difficult aspect of taking a new job but that he would be bringin his own guys. It's not really that outrageous a decision to make.
Because he didn't have it priority. The results support him, 5 titles in last 7 years and in two other years we lost the title by a single point combined.
Moyes could have easily gone the other way. Just add 3 extra millions to Fellaini and Herrera would have been playing for us. Not Premier League proven, neither hoof the ball proven but much better than the player Moyes signed.
I think he should've phased the old staff out rather than a radical change. Odd though, I didn't think any new manager would've found it this difficult.
I think putting in a challenge and winning the title are two different thing. I don't think many expected us to retain the title this year but expected us to put in a decent enough challenge. The latter I would have been happy with as it would have showed that we remained competitive even through all the changes we have gone through recently. I don't think that is too much to ask for.
I have the opposite view, I always thought this first season without Fergie no matter who the manager was would be difficult. There were a whole pile of signs indicating it was going to be difficult.
Moyes has been unlucky to an large degree. I have no doubt had he had RvP, Carrick, Rafael, Jones, and Nani available for a few more games we would have been in the top Four.
It was only a matter of time not spending in the transfer market over the last 6-7 years was eventually going to show up.
My biggest issue so far with Moyes is the signing of Fellaini.
It was only a matter of time not spending in the transfer market over the last 6-7 years was eventually going to show up.
My biggest issue so far with Moyes is the signing of Fellaini.
Ok well don't think we're gonna agree. You seem to think any team we could want a player from will charge us an insane amount to the point where if Fellaini played cm for Everton you think he'd cost £40m. Can only assume that you think Cabaye would cost us a similar amount? I accept that most clubs will put the price up a bit but I don't think it would be so unrealistic.
I think its fair that with better luck with injuries we would have done better but I don't think that excuses how easy we can be to beat at times and certainly how easy we can be to get at. That's a tactical issue. Against Spurs for example it was clear early on that we were over committing forward and leaving our centre exposed and eventually we got caught out and it changed the game. We've been unfortunate with injuries no doubt and also in some games unfortunate how things have fallen, eg Newcastles goal against us, but either way I don't think Moyes has done the best with the players who have been fit, nor got them to play in such a way that they can be solid against decent teams if lacking sparkle in attack.
Help yourself then.
Even when we've had RVP around and had far less injuries earlier on, it never looked right. We had a bit of a run where we haven't lost a game, but our football still wasn't good enough. Sure, we'd be better with less injuries, but it's still a case of the quality players pulling the team rather than the team becoming at least the sum of its parts.
Football doesnt work like that trust me, especially with a new manager/coach taking over.
Can anyone actually envisage David Moyes lifting the Champions League? That's the level of ambition we should be aiming for in the medium term (3-5 years).
I'm sure we'll be aiming for that, not sure we'll get it. It doesn't mean feck all anyway. It's not as if Fergie had us regularly winning it.
Di Matteo won it so yes, I think we can envisage Moyes lifting it. I don't think that Moyes has potential to make us the best team in the world, but we were that team only two years (and even there was marginally) on 25 years under Fergie. At the moment, I don't think that winning UCL should be our target, hopefully we win it, but there are more important things in short term.
Injuries aside, if we're unlucky in matches, playing good but for one reason or the other cant score, or simply defensive lapses that prove to be costly, i can understand.
But at the moment we are playing atrocious with no clear solid plan of how we want to play football. I dont believe for a change that these bunch of players cant be tought or told to play in a basic football, pass and move. Even if it doesnt suit our style, surely they can do the most basic stuff in football?
We have been passing around to valencia all day, it doesnt work, and moyes did nothing to address this. I see no tactical changes, he had kagawa and nani, at least he can try and utilise them? Instructions for nani to make runs? Kagawa penetrating from middle? He could even puy vidic up top, at least try something different.
There's no point bombing forward on both wings when your main striker is not very good in the air, and most time he's droping deep.
Im not a football tactician, but what im seeing so far is a team devoid of ideas and vision, lack of plan a nevermind plan b. We're banking on tight defence and nick it somehow, that is stoke for me.
The player didnt havr a clue on how they plan to score, they simply play and hope a goal will come out somehow.
That's the irk that worries me the most. I dont care about league position, nobody expect us to win it this year, but we're 7th based on merit, it's not due to bad luck.
Halfway through the season and moyes is still looking clueless as ever, even our runs of wins are simply nicking a lucky goal out of nowhere against poor sides.
Realistically, do you expect things are gonna be better next year? I dont think players like gundogan, vidal, fabregas et al would see how we play and relish playing for us at the moment. Before in saf era, going to united means easy medal, nowdays it's a huge career gamble.
Big name and tradition can only carry us halfway, the established players would need something more than just history, most of the teams that are vying for their signature probably had no less grand history compared to us.
Unless i see a visible solid change in philosophy and game plan (mind you not the result, but the way we approach games) i dont think he is the right man for the job
But at the moment we are playing atrocious with no clear solid plan of how we want to play football. I dont believe for a change that these bunch of players cant be tought or told to play in a basic football, pass and move. Even if it doesnt suit our style, surely they can do the most basic stuff in football?
We have been passing around to valencia all day, it doesnt work, and moyes did nothing to address this. I see no tactical changes, he had kagawa and nani, at least he can try and utilise them? Instructions for nani to make runs? Kagawa penetrating from middle? He could even puy vidic up top, at least try something different.
There's no point bombing forward on both wings when your main striker is not very good in the air, and most time he's droping deep.
Im not a football tactician, but what im seeing so far is a team devoid of ideas and vision, lack of plan a nevermind plan b. We're banking on tight defence and nick it somehow, that is stoke for me.
The player didnt havr a clue on how they plan to score, they simply play and hope a goal will come out somehow.
That's the irk that worries me the most. I dont care about league position, nobody expect us to win it this year, but we're 7th based on merit, it's not due to bad luck.
Halfway through the season and moyes is still looking clueless as ever, even our runs of wins are simply nicking a lucky goal out of nowhere against poor sides.
Realistically, do you expect things are gonna be better next year? I dont think players like gundogan, vidal, fabregas et al would see how we play and relish playing for us at the moment. Before in saf era, going to united means easy medal, nowdays it's a huge career gamble.
Big name and tradition can only carry us halfway, the established players would need something more than just history, most of the teams that are vying for their signature probably had no less grand history compared to us.
Unless i see a visible solid change in philosophy and game plan (mind you not the result, but the way we approach games) i dont think he is the right man for the job
Hypothetically we meet barca, madrid, psg, City, napoli, i ca say 75% of the remaining teams in cl can potentially tear us a new hole. Previously we never expected a win against barca, but at least we relish our chance and looking forward to it, at this rate, i fear of what they might do against us should we meet them in the competition when even the likes of cardiff can trouble us.
It's not like those losses are not merited, it's not like we bombed them all day and they nick on lucky goal, we're devoid and they score against us.
Barca, madrid, munich, dortmund and all won't be so tame against us. And the onlt vision i had at the moment is moyes scratching his head and claiming we gave it our best and he's proud of the team while getting battered left right centre
It's not like those losses are not merited, it's not like we bombed them all day and they nick on lucky goal, we're devoid and they score against us.
Barca, madrid, munich, dortmund and all won't be so tame against us. And the onlt vision i had at the moment is moyes scratching his head and claiming we gave it our best and he's proud of the team while getting battered left right centre
We played well for the vast majority of the Spurs game. Defensive lapses cost us but we rolled the dice and put Valencia at right back and it cost us a goal. Unfortunately Valencia decided to have one of his worst games I've seen from him, but we still had plenty of chances and generally bossed Spurs all game. Not to mention not getting the two penalties. With a bit more luck (I hate talking about luck in football) and a competent refereeing performance, we'd have rightfully took the 3 points.
We said the same last season before playing Madrid. Football isn't always black and white. I'm not saying we'd definitely beat them all, but if we're not ridden with injuries then we'd give most of them teams a good game.
Probably, but what about the rest of the game? Which one of them we can safely says we won it? A few flashes : leverkusen, swanse, and probably 1-2 more.
To be challenging we need to win on weekly basis, lost is a blip and not tge other way around, you dony expect lucky win here and there to carry us over 38 games. It is why we excelled at the leagues, because we play the percentage and won most out of 38 games
And i dont think the 2nd half od the season will amount to much, we probably nick a few streaky wins with rvp back, but that'll still paper ovrr the crack that we rely on luck, genious, anything but a solid plan to score on a weekly basis
In general we haven't safely won many of our games. There's a great deal of nervousness in the team which is a byproduct of our shaky start. Everytime we have scrape a win it feeds that nervousness.
My opinion is that this will sort itself out in time. I'd also argue that we relied on a lot of those things that you mention in your last paragraph just last season. RVP basically won us the league. Imagine where we'd have been without that last season. Honestly, where do you think we'd have ended up? We're basically seeing that this season. The squad needs a freshen up to bring in more match winners so that we don't have to rely on one or two to dig us out. That takes time though.
We're champions, we should be challenging at the start of the season. You have deluded folk like twigganator who think we still are but most have changed their stance as the season goes on.
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Challenging for the title is a strange one. We'd be deemed to be challenging if we were in Everton or Liverpool's position now, where I think we should be at a minimum, yet both of those teams aren't considered challengers by most.
I know Moyes like to have a 3-year plan for his first XI on a board in his office (read it somewhere). Here's my opinion:
Moyes first XI for 14/15 season should be:
.............RVP...Rooney.......
XX............XX.............Nani
.............Carrick................
XX....Jones....Evans....Rafael
...............De Gea.............
Moyes first XI for 5/16 season should be:
..........XX.....Rooney........
XX..........XX............Januzaj
................XXX................
XX.....Jones.....XX.....Rafael
.............De Gea.............
XX= New player i.e. HIS player.
Moyes first XI for 14/15 season should be:
.............RVP...Rooney.......
XX............XX.............Nani
.............Carrick................
XX....Jones....Evans....Rafael
...............De Gea.............
Moyes first XI for 5/16 season should be:
..........XX.....Rooney........
XX..........XX............Januzaj
................XXX................
XX.....Jones.....XX.....Rafael
.............De Gea.............
XX= New player i.e. HIS player.
To me, ideally Moyes should eventually have his 'own' team. Away from SAF's 'team'. The more he replace quickly, the better. He needs more players looking up to him rather than SAF. He wouldnt want to win too much using Fergie's team. He was already 'embarassed' winning the Community shield with Fergie's team.
The big summer signing was Fellaini who had nothing to do with Fergie.
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Switch nani with januzaj in the first one, he's already our best winger and will only get better. Also I don't think Carrick should be seen as automatic first choice next season. He'll be 33 I think? It's be best if we started phasing him out now, so that we can get a new partnership next season. We do need to sign quite a few players in the near future though, basically replace half of our starting 11 because of age/quality. Ideally though for 15/16 I think moyes, if he's still here, will want us to change to a 1 up top system, with januzaj as a 10. That would mean 2 new wingers, 2 new centre mids, a centre back and a left back. We might have the fix for centre back at the club, but smalling/Evans/jones all have to improve a lot and form a solid partnership between them that is good enough for a title winning side.
This. Had Fellaini been injury free and able to replicate this Everton form, we would have been in a much better position than we are now.
1) The young new core of Jones, Smalling, Januzaj were never actually Fergie's team too. They would play more under Moyes than Fergie.
2) The 'players in prime' of Rafael, Evans, Rooney, Hernandez, Wellbeck are perfectly OK for next couple of seasons.
3) The experianced players of Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, RvP are all supposed to be good for this season giving Moyes time to find replacements.
imho, the only hard decisions Moyes has to make right now are all in the midfield viz, Kagawa, Nani, Cleverly, Young & Valencia and how best to make them perform or sell off if they don't fit in his strategy. Selling Anderson is a easy given too!
Now, I know I'm firmly in the "Moyes is not cut out for this job" camp, but, while this picture and caption is not true, I nearly pissed myself laughing
The Star ran the picture below in their newspaper after the Spurs game, with the caption:
"I'm outta here....Moyes at the final whistle"
I lost my shit laughing at this
Can you imagine, the Ref blows for full time, and Moyes legs it
The Star ran the picture below in their newspaper after the Spurs game, with the caption:
"I'm outta here....Moyes at the final whistle"
I lost my shit laughing at this
Can you imagine, the Ref blows for full time, and Moyes legs it
Now, I know I'm firmly in the "Moyes is not cut out for this job" camp, but, while this picture and caption is not true, I nearly pissed myself laughing
The Star ran the picture below in their newspaper after the Spurs game, with the caption:
"I'm outta here....Moyes at the final whistle"
I lost my shit laughing at this
Can you imagine, the Ref blows for full time, and Moyes legs it
The Star is shite, but that is funny tbf.Which i find concerning. Rooney & Kagawa were so deep.
Not sure if this article has been posted, but it's a good read because it highlights what alot of posters on here are saying:
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11096/9098542/style-issues
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11096/9098542/style-issues
Some are calling it the worst defence of the title ever. Manchester United are seventh in January. No Premier League champions have ever finished lower. They have already lost more home games - four - than in any season in the past decade and there are still nine Old Trafford fixtures left to fulfil. The only comfort for United fans right now is that the transfer window is now open. The panacea could be just days away.
David Moyes has sought to play down the club's January activity, recently admitting he wasn't "massively sure" he would bring someone in. While that is unlikely to impress United fans, the real worry for supporters should not be a lack of signings; the big concern ought to be that those signings might not make much difference. Not when there is a problem at the core of the team's style of play.
Playing the percentages can be an unwelcome phrase in football. But many coaches recognise that luck is a key element in the game. In The Numbers Game by Chris Anderson and David Sally it is argued that fortune accounts for 50 per cent of the reason for any given result. Some play on this. A Sam Allardyce or a Tony Pulis might enjoy relative success by utilising an aerial game that relies upon second balls and knockdowns, turning the contest into a series of 50/50 battles.
Making a football match a 90 minute coin toss suits teams with less quality at their disposal. But the aim for the richest clubs in the division with the best players at their disposal should be to limit the impact of luck. That's why such sides will look to pass their way through the opposition and focus on precision. It is not a quirk that sees Barcelona et al choose to take short corners rather than sling the ball into the box. It is a calculated decision that there are easier ways to score.
Of course, crossing the ball is a tradition at Old Trafford. This is a club accustomed to having some of the finest wingers around. Sir Alex Ferguson has relied upon them over the years from Lee Sharpe and Andrei Kanchelskis to Ryan Giggs and David Beckham; from the great Cristiano Ronaldo to the blossoming talents of Adnan Januzaj. But it seems you can have too much of a good thing.
Manchester United's tally of 423 failed crosses this season is a Premier League high
Manchester United top the Premier League for crosses per game, swinging in an average of 26.65 of them in their 20 league games so far this season. In the New Year's Day defeat at home to Tottenham, they took the policy to new levels. A whopping 47 crosses were lobbed goalwards for Vlad Chiriches and Michael Dawson to deal with. That was a United high for the season and more than in any game they played last term. It isn't proving an efficient use of the ball in the final third.
This is precisely the area of the field where the best teams will play an intricate through-ball to find a breakthrough. Tellingly, that's exactly what the impressive Januzaj did to create Danny Welbeck's goal on Wednesday. It leads to better quality opportunities and United are eschewing plenty of them: 423 of the 533 crosses hurled in have failed to find their target (again, a Premier League high). That's 423 chances to do something better in the last third that have been wasted.
It's a disjointed tactic too. Firstly, an emphasis on crossing necessitates quality in wide areas. While United have the numbers, the world-class wingers of the past are missing. Moyes' team has become wilfully reliant on the most mercurial figures in the squad, with the ruthless Robin van Persie reduced to the role of waiting in the box for the ball to arrive from the flanks.
vs
Not only is this supply a problem but these wingers are not a direct source of goals either. Ronaldo was a revelation, Beckham averaged more than seven goals per season and Giggs netted 81 goals in his first 12 Premier League campaigns. In the 1994/95 season, Kanchelskis was even the top scorer. In 2013/14, Giggs, Ashley Young, Nani, Antonio Valencia and Wilfried Zaha have contributed just two goals between them. Only young Januzaj - with three goals - has scored more than once.
The lack of goals from wide areas mean that goalscoring contributions from midfield are more important than ever - and here too there are problems. Michael Carrick is content in his role as a sitting midfielder but his regular partner Thomas Cleverley is showing little sign of developing into the regular scorer that his position surely demands. He has netted just one goal in 26 appearances for club and country so far this season.
At least that's one more than summer signing Marouane Fellaini. The Belgian midfielder has a reputation as a goalscorer after hitting 11 in the league for Everton last year but he has made a disappointing start at United. He is goalless after 11 games for the Red Devils with little more than a red card to show for his efforts. Most alarmingly, it seems that Moyes might envision Fellaini in a deeper role akin to that of Carrick with little responsibility to share the goalscoring burden.
Flawed
This is an issue. Without runners bursting onto the ball from midfield, the tactical approach is fundamentally flawed. With nobody for the strikers to lay the ball off to and no late runs into the box to worry defenders, United must win the initial header... or else. Wayne Rooney has nine goals this season; Van Persie and Welbeck seven each. But opponents know that if they take care of the forwards then the job is effectively done.
Much of the focus for Manchester United supporters this January will be on finding that one midfielder who can transform the team's fortunes. Spanish duo Thiago Alcantara and Cesc Fabregas were missed in the summer and now there is hope that Borussia Dortmund's Ilkay Gundogan can be the difference maker. But how can any midfielder make a huge impact when the team's tactics don't involve playing through the middle of the pitch?
Moyes blames referee
United currently rank bottom of the Premier League for the percentage of their attacking play that goes through the central zone of the field. Last season they were up in eighth. If it's debatable whether that statistic should be interpreted as a negative, consider the company they are keeping - the next three teams on the list are Hull, West Ham and Stoke. This is not a template for a successful style of play.
Is that a product of not having a top-class midfielder at the club or is it just the way Moyes wants his team set up to play? Having spent £27.5million on a central midfielder in the summer, there is a real danger of throwing good money after bad. As a result, perhaps the biggest fear for Manchester United fans is that they are chasing a solution on the pitch to a problem that is standing on their touchline.
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