I was just copy pasting the whole thing only to find you beat me by fecking 8 minutes. I now feel like Valencia trying to cross!
Moyes So Far!
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I was just copy pasting the whole thing only to find you beat me by fecking 8 minutes. I now feel like Valencia trying to cross!
Great article, though a bit flawed...in the sense that tactics is based on players we have. We do not have anyone who can offer a threat from the middle and so go for Valencia and wide right. Carrick is out of sorts, Kagawa never settled in, Jones is injured and Cleverly has done feck all. Don't even need to talk about Anderson now. All we hope is for Valencia to find his crossing boots soon and half problem solved!
Not sure about the current stats for sides defending their title having just replaced a manager after a 26-year reign.
Fellaini is brought in to compete with Carrick I think. But I think it is more like a backup for Carrick. He is great at Everton, but probably not a United quality, and we all know that he is not the actual big summer signing he was eyeing for.
He's doing something Fergie didn't do with his team though...lose.
That's the whole point really. The players would probably perform very differently under Fergie because they all look up to him and would probably move mountains for him. Moyes need to get his own set of players who can at least move huge rocks for him.
Kagawa has always looked very dangerous when played centrally. With RVP out I can't think of any reason why we aren't playing him (Kagawa) behind a striker.
Part of me feels we should do what I do in Football Manager with United and switch to a wingbacks system, do away with wingers and play essentially 5-3-2, allowing 2 strikers AND an AM behind them. Whatever the case we do need to do something as our current style of play just isn't working.
I knew we were being wasteful relying on crosses like that but I had no idea the figures were quite as bad as shown in that article.
It makes me wonder - if we had Martinez or Rodgers or someone of that ilk running the club this season, would we have fared better and be playing a drastically different style?
Part of me feels we should do what I do in Football Manager with United and switch to a wingbacks system, do away with wingers and play essentially 5-3-2, allowing 2 strikers AND an AM behind them. Whatever the case we do need to do something as our current style of play just isn't working.
I knew we were being wasteful relying on crosses like that but I had no idea the figures were quite as bad as shown in that article.
It makes me wonder - if we had Martinez or Rodgers or someone of that ilk running the club this season, would we have fared better and be playing a drastically different style?
We do have players who can play through the middle though. Kagawa (never settled because of our style), Januzaj, Welbeck, Rooney, RVP, Nani, even Cleverley. These are all players who love a quick pass and move style with an eye for a pass. The problem is we keep choosing to play a wide style. If anything, it's like we are forcing these players to play in a wing-based wide style system. If Moyes would just try a more compact system, I think it could work.
Parody, surely?
We do have players who can play through the middle though. Kagawa (never settled because of our style), Januzaj, Welbeck, Rooney, RVP, Nani, even Cleverley. These are all players who love a quick pass and move style with an eye for a pass. The problem is we keep choosing to play a wide style. If anything, it's like we are forcing these players to play in a wing-based wide style system. If Moyes would just try a more compact system, I think it could work.
Sometimes he was using the wingers due to opponents closing down the door through the middle. Forcing us to use our ineffective wingers and crosses.
When you think about it, it actually really suits the players we have. Not that it would ever happen but it's worth a shot.
Not sure how Kagawa will fit in well with others on the list. Maybe Kagawa needs a central part in 4-2-3-1 which we cannot fit Rooney in. Even for that we need a flexible wide players for the fluidity which apaprt from Januzaj we only have Young! Worth a try. It can't get worse than losing a match.
The article mentions this. All opposition needs to do is to close down Rooney/Wellbeck through the middle and we are toothless.
It's the same way City play someone like Nasri, or how Arsenal play their 'wide men' or Liverpool play Countinho. They don't play as wingers, but are expected to come inside to join in with the passing and movement. I know you may say but that's what Moyes has been doing with Kagawa, playing him on the left with him coming in field. The difference is that our attacks and style is focused on the flanks and not through the middle. So even though Kagawa comes in field, the ball hardly gets to him because we prefer to pass it out wide. The sooner we play through the middle, the sooner we can see a better Kagawa and team play.
I think this substantiates what I've been saying in terms of a change in our tactics under Moyes. Everyone keeps blurting out that we are simply employing identical tactics than we did under Ferguson. The truth is the tactics that Ferguson was heavily criticised for over the last 2 seasons have been put on steroids and the positive parts of our game seem to be being phased out.
I said a few weeks ago that we need 13-15 points out of 15 to keep pace; we got 12. I'd say we now realistically need 19 points in the next 8, which includes City, Chelsea and Arsenal. That means 5 wins out of 5 vs Swansea, Stoke, Palace, Cardiff and Fulham and worst case a win and a draw vs City/Arsenal/Chelsea. A huge ask given our current record/form and one that I feel if Moyes doesn't come out of in a good light (positive signs in our play and somewhere close to that 19 point mark) he could and should be in serious danger. Coupled of course with a transfer window where we need a significant improvement on the Summer debacle.
As I said before after this run of fixtures we have 10 games until the end of the season, the hardest of which are Everton, Newcastle and So'ton away. With 53 points on the board at this stage, with the likes of Rafael, Carrick and RVP back in the team and hopefully some positive changes to our one dimensional style and we could be looking at 24-26 points from our last 30 available (this would easily attain fourth).
The problem is there has been absolutely nothing to suggest we can put this sort of run together. I'm also worried that because he is desperate for some form of success we are going to be playing full strength teams against Swansea and both legs vs Sunderland. Six games where we field a full strength team in 24 days is going to absolutely batter us after already playing ten in 32 days (especially if Rooney is continued to be played through injury and Rafael/RVP are rushed back again).
Fraid not, Ryan. As Eric'sCollar says, it is a system which would genuinely suit us. I doubt we will use it for a few reasons but it would be better than a bloody 4-4-2;
--------------------De Gea
------- Smalling - Jones - Vidic
Rafael ----------------------------Evra
---------Carrick - Cleverley
-------------Kagawa
-----------Rooney - RVP
It seems to be a widely held view on here that Fergie would have continued to win things with this team but I don't think he'd have fared hugely better. If you look at our record over the past couple of seasons without key players and our record this season with injuries that it looks almost inevitable that we were going to drop points. Especially when we've had all of the key dependencies out at once many times.
It's put on Moyes but i've read numerous times on here last season that if Carrick/Rafael/RvP got injured we'd be fecked and that Evra is an increasing liability. Now that they have been the fact we're fecked has become Moyes fault.
Moyes biggest challenge is making us less susceptible to losing key men (which was caused by Fergie) by doing some decent transfer business. There's the tactical shift he needs to implement after we're stable but getting us back into the top 4 will be as a result of sorting out these huge weaknesses.
I'm no sure the teams playing all that differently to Sir Alex's team.
I'm not sure. I think that leaves us far, far too open down the wings and with a static and defensively... shit.. midfield I think we'd get eviscerated every time we lose the ball. The option for one of the centre backs to push out to fill in the full back position while Rafael is coming back from attacking and Evra is predictably AWOL basically just leaves us with our normal back 4, less the bonus of them already being in position.
It'd be ok if Carrick could charge around to fill in where he's needed and Cleverly understood the basics of a tackle. If Kagawa was Rooney (or someone who'd drop deep enough to offer a serious hand in the centre) maybe it'd be a bit solider. As it is that's basically pinning our entire defensive workload on three centre backs. Not too much different than how we are now to be fair but easier to rip open I think.
I think Nani is Moyes 'starter' as he signed the new contract under him. I can see Januzaj being a backup but good form and better fitness level might indeed push Januzaj ahead of Nani earlier than expected.
Reading the article posted on the last page, it seems like Moyes has put even greater emphasis on playing it out wide and crossing it into the box.
We don't play through the middle at all any more.
I'd say that's not a tactic. Likely due to lack of quality to play through the middle.
Part of the problem is we don't have RVP and Rooney playing together. The way I see it is these are our two really true world class quality players. When you have both playing, the other team can't stick two on each as they will leave gaps. This means one of them will always find space allowing us to create something magical. On the other hand, if you just play one, it is much easier to mark that one out the game, and know that no other United world class players are there to cause damage. It's a double whammy really.
The central spine of our team should have 4 of Rooney, Welbeck, RVP, Carrick, Jones or Cleverley. In addition Januzaj or Kagawa coming central from the left.
If teams like Newcastle, Swansea and Everton can effectively play through the middle then I don't see any reason why we can't.
Not saying that it's Moyes fault at all. In a way, I am saying that it's the players fault. The mental side of it. Not that they can help it. It just takes time to play for a new manager and to trust him. And also for the new manager to stamp his own squad and way of playing.
I wouldnt read anything into the Nani contract. In fact, dont be surprised to see him sold shortly.
This is true. SAF worked out a few years ago that if you had quality up top, all you had to do was get the ball to them enough and they would do something special. Hence, his "blindspot" in CM.
That said, your point around the injuries highlights even more of a problem with Moyes tactics. Its definitely true that a team can cope with one of RVP/Rooney, so why continue aimlessly crossing ball into the box when they know they only need to keep one quiet? The predictability in our play is depressing. I cant understand why Moyes hasnt worked this out. Needing players in midfield or not, the current set are capable of playing more through the middle than what we are right now.
He should have been spending time working on a way to work the ball through the middle. Look at the game on Wednesday - spent the whole game crossing into the box with no result. Yet, when Januzaj came inside and went with a through ball we got the goal.
I am definitely sure that Nani signed the contract due to Moyes wanting him to be his first choice winger. If not, that's bad management (unless he wants to sell him with huge profit). But like I said, form and fitness can change that. We can only plan really.
So basically, we have dreadful wingers, no midfield and no cover in the full back positions. I think thats a fair summary.
Its actually good management - he's protecting the value of an asset.
We had the same lack of quality last season - but look at the difference in terms of how big a part crossing plays in our game.
I'm a Moyesy man so don't tar me with that brush. But that did make me laugh.Agree - I really think our tactics are very wing-focused. Unfortunately that has always been our style, so I wonder how much of that is Moyes' direction and how much is legacy mentality. Judging by what Martinez has done, it seems it may well be a Moyes tactic.
You have to remember that in the midfield in central areas, United have just 4 players. 1 a pure stiker, one is Rooney as a 10, and 2 central midfielders. The problem we have is Carrick sits extremely deep these days with the ball. That effectively leaves us with 3 players in the middle. 3 players in the middle, of which 1 is a striker. It is very very easy to mark all of them out the game. This means that when Rooney or Carrick are on the ball, there is no other option but to ping it into the spaces out wide. Hence we see constant crossfield passes.
I genuinely don't think Moyes sits in the coaching room and tells his players to pass to Valencia so he can cross cross cross. I just think on the pitch, given the circumstances, this is how it ends up happening. It's not like our play is free-flowing to suggest there is a direct aim to get the ball to Valencia. So often i see Carrick/Rooney picking up the ball and not having anyone to pass to. As a last resort almost we end up pinging it to the wing.
I therefore don't think Moyes is 100% behind our tactical mess, but he contributes to it by the players and formation he picks. But for a team that is used to playing wide for 25 years, and a team where the players aren't really used to big tactical changes (Fergie wouldn't drastically change our style), I think it'll take some time. I don't think it's fair to judge just yet, although the signs don't look good. Over time though, I do think Moyes will change things. Until then, he needs to figure out a way to paper over the cracks like Ferguson did for 3 years.
Hmmm. Not sure. The team played through the middle a lot more last season compared to this - so there has been a shift. Thats come from somewhere.
Best post I've read on here since the Spurs game, absolutely spot on. Gold star for you.
I remember a poster complaining about "resorting to the Valencia cross-field pass" whenever we didn't get our game going under SAF. Perhaps this is what's happening? Our players aren't confident in their ability to thread balls into the strikers, doesn't make advanced runs from midfield and doesn't dare dribbling with the ball or try anything risky, so we end up resorting to the old method of pinging it out to Valencia? After all, it's the "safe" option, right?
I just wish Moyes would force our players to focus more of our game on playing through the middle of the field. I know we've got the quality in our squad to do it, players like Rooney, Carrick, Kagawa, Nani, van Persie and Januzaj are all creative players who can thread a pass through and combine in tight spaces, but we need to alter our game quite significantly if that's going to start happening.
Agreed. It's just based on observation rather than statistics, but I feel that in the past we tended to try a lot of little one-twos on the edge of the box in order to put a player through. I wasn't overly keen on it as the success rate wasn't great - but at times it worked and at least it made us less predictable because it was another thing we used to do. I feel we do far less of that this season and it's easier for defenses to know what's coming.
So far he's gone in the completely opposite direction. finneh posted the stat on this very page:
We had more variety in our play under Fergie though I agree with those who say it was still quite outdated. But it got worse... and the personnel did not change drastically.
The shift has been that we don't have Rooney and RVP. We don't have a Carrick on form. I think you underestimate the influence this has. We don't have our MF playing lovely through balls to feet or into space in the middle. We don't have our two best strikers linking and making space for each other.
My point is, I don't think Moyes has specifically come in and said "DON'T PLAY THROUGH THE MIDDLE - GIVE IT TO VALENCIA YOU FOOLS!" I do think, however, he hasn't done enough to address it. He is indirectly at fault, if you get what I mean.
Well they did - Carrick and RVP have been injured. As I posted above, this has a significant effect on our ability to play through the middle.
I would assume we've simply not worked on our attacking game from open play to a large degree, so as a result we're resorting to the Valencia-pass when we don't trust the ability to play our way through the middle.
It fits with the impression of Moyes as a coach that's very focused on organization and physical fitness that we'll have had less time to work on the attacking game.
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