Moyes So Far!

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You do realize it's the club that made the choice to give him the contract for that reason?



This was always inevitable. This is a profoundly unique situation. There were always going to be massive internal emotional and political problems with the change. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't have the least bit of understanding of psychology.

And the team wasn't going to splash the amount that was needed to get a player like Herrera. They just didn't. We are and were always going to have to pay more to get a natural CM. We just haven't wanted to pay that amount for 4 years. Go figure.

Why on earth did we spend 27.5 million on Fellaini then? I agree with you by the way, its just every time somebody brings up we weren't willing to spend a large amount on a proper midfielder, you can't ignore that we actually did spend close to 30m on a player who obviously was never suited to us from day 1, and Moyes of all people should have seen that.
Also, I know it's the club that gave him the contract of course, but that's a shite reason as to why. Giving somebody a 6 year contract as manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world, replacing the best manager ever, despite them having no experience whatsoever of being at a top club or lacking most of the attributes that you would associate with United is madness IMO. Saying it's so they don't get put under a lot of pressure isn't a good reason, because it's one of the biggest jobs in the world, and like it or not, he has to be able to handle all the enormous pressure that comes with it and at the end of the day, it is still a business.
 
We had a number of chances cleared pretty much off the line and sustained good periods of pressure.

We were very dangerous in the closing minutes, but it's hardly anything to build on. We can't play with Valencia at full back, Rooney and Kagawa in midfield and two strikers all the time.

It wasn't a terrible performance overall, but if we can't create chances - and for about 40-50 minutes we were stuck - then it doesn't really matter.
 
I'm not debating the merits of Moyes, himself. I'm debating Redcafe's historic views on him.
If we didn't know that Fergie is picking him as a replacement I doubt many on here would have gone with him. There is always a majority who will be more vocal than the others and will be more vocal now as well in the "told you so" mood.

Overall I doubt the view changed, regardless of the need the back the decision. Those who didn't overstate their view IMO went with the tide - after he was announced as United manager and that he should received backing. I doubt more than 5% ever wanted him as a manager as the best option and even less last year.

Am I alone in thinking it very unlikely that the owners of our club would give any manager a six year contract that doesn't contain clauses they can use to terminate it without having to pay full compensation?

Of course there will be, depends on the damage. But I think at the end it will be by mutual consent rather than being sacked (if that happens of course). I doubt Moyes himself will enjoy being sacked after the good job he has done with Everton during more than a decade..
 
Yet the other 'bigger teams' slip up against lower opposition, there are no awards for being top of that table you posted and even under SAF we always slipped up against big teams. What matters is the table at the end of the season and lets judge Moyes on that.


But we slip up against the bottom teams and top teams. Losing at home to West Brom, for example.
 
The thing I find hard to believe is that with what is surely an extensive scouting network we can't identify one midfielder at a smaller club in world football who could have come in and made an impact. There must be another Modric/Gundogen etc out there waiting to be found, if we won't stump up the cash. I mean maybe we did have some targets and they've gone out of the window because Moyes wants his own scouted players but I'd image if they were good enough for Fergie then that's enough for Moyes. But either way we must have some targets in place that Moyes could have had a look at to see if he agree's. If they're not willing to splash the cash on an established player than they need to accept the risk on a lesser know player.

Maybe jan isn't the time to look but I find it hard to believe over the last couple of years that we couldn't find one midifelder who was attainable.


Yeah but as soon as we're in, we have to pay more, right? That's the way this goes. We have a glaring hole, more than anytime I can remember. We will pay heavily to fill that hole and I don't think we're willing to do so. Maybe I'm wrong but there's nothing to suggest that we would.
 
Why on earth did we spend 27.5 million on Fellaini then?

Well, we didn't buy him in July did we? We bought him in a panic because......why? Are you assuming we just decided not to buy a natural CM we were after for 45 because we thought Felliani would be great playing in the position he did not excel in at Everton?

IMO, we bought him because we could get him because we didn't want to pay MORE for a natural CM.

I agree with you by the way, its just every time somebody brings up we weren't willing to spend a large amount on a proper midfielder, you can't ignore that we actually did spend close to 30m on a player who obviously was never suited to us from day 1, and Moyes of all people should have seen that.

Panic buys are exactly that. And that's what he was. Because we weren't willing to spend 45 on a natural CM. And that to me stinks of purse strings.
 
Yeah but as soon as we're in, we have to pay more, right? That's the way this goes. We have a glaring hole, more than anytime I can remember. We will pay heavily to fill that hole and I don't think we're willing to do so. Maybe I'm wrong but there's nothing to suggest that we would.


I don't see why every club in the world is going to massively rip us off. We need a midfielder sure but doesn't mean we can't find someone who could step up for a reasonable fee and tbh if someone is sanctioning 27m for Fellaini I find it hard to believe they wouldn't sanction say 18m for a less well known player. Everyone knew City needed players a number of years ago to step up and had bags of cash yet they still got their best players for what I'd say were very reasonable and in some cases great prices, they only over paid for the PL players like Lescott.
 
If we didn't know that Fergie is picking him as a replacement I doubt many on here would have gone with him. There is always a majority who will be more vocal than the others and will be more vocal now as well in the "told you so" mood.

Overall I doubt the view changed, regardless of the need the back the decision. Those who didn't overstate their view IMO went with the tide - after he was announced as United manager and that he should received backing. I doubt more than 5% ever wanted him as a manager as the best option and even less last year.



Of course there will be, depends on the damage. But I think at the end it will be by mutual consent rather than being sacked (if that happens of course). I doubt Moyes himself will enjoy being sacked after the good job he has done with Everton during more than a decade..
Think these are all good points.

Anyhow, whether I speak for the silent majority, or just me and Silent_Running... our desire to avoid the football forums when Moyes is being slated to this degree does make him look somewhat less popular than he really is.
 
I don't see why every club in the world is going to massively rip us off. We need a midfielder sure but doesn't mean we can't find someone who could step up for a reasonable fee and tbh if someone is sanctioning 27m for Fellaini I find it hard to believe they wouldn't sanction say 18m for a less well known player. Everyone knew City needed players a number of years ago to step up and had bags of cash yet they still got their best players for what I'd say were very reasonable and in some cases great prices, they only over paid for the PL players like Lescott.


I don't think there's a team in the top 4 that have had a glaring hole in their squad the way we have for 4 years.

It's not going to be a reasonable fee because of that.

If you don't believe that to be the case, please explain why we having bought a CM for 4 years.
 
Think these are all good points.

Anyhow, whether I speak for the silent majority, or just me and Silent_Running... our desire to avoid the football forums when Moyes is being slated to this degree does make him look somewhat less popular than he really is.


The usual posters are noticeably absent.
 
I don't think there's a team in the top 4 that have had a glaring hole in their squad the way we have for 4 years.

It's not going to be a reasonable fee because of that.

If you don't believe that to be the case, please explain why we having bought a CM for 4 years.


Well I think there may have been a few reasons 4 to 3 years ago we didn't sign a cm, Fergie likely anticipated Pogba/Ravel would still be here and probably had high hopes for Clev/Ando. The summer before last when Pogba went and for me Ando/Clev showed they either weren't quite good enough or reliable to be key players for us we should have been looking so about 2 seasons ago. Since then who knows, but I really can't see how we would be the only team to get shafted, and can't see it being so much that we couldn't accept it if they didn't want to go for an established player. Could have been stubborness on Fergies part, may be he really believed in Clev etc. Who knows but can't see how we're the only team that would be getting so massively out priced, especially when you know that players can often and do often push moves.
 
Well I think there may have been a few reasons 4 to 3 years ago we didn't sign a cm, Fergie likely anticipated Pogba/Ravel would still be here and probably had high hopes for Clev/Ando. The summer before last when Pogba went and for me Ando/Clev showed they either weren't quite good enough or reliable to be key players for us we should have been looking so about 2 seasons ago. Since then who knows, but I really can't see how we would be the only team to get shafted, and can't see it being so much that we couldn't accept it if they didn't want to go for an established player. Could have been stubborness on Fergies part, may be he really believed in Clev etc. Who knows but can't see how we're the only team that would be getting so massively out priced, especially when you know that players can often and do often push moves.


Right but we're the only team (besides Arsenal until recently) unwilling to pay over valuation.
 
No...But like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Richardson, O Shea, Welbeck, Cleverley, Butt, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Terry Cooke, Ben Thornley, John Curtis, Wes Brown, Chris Eagles, Keith Gillespie etc all got a run in the first team squad


Oh, you got into the way back machine. I was speaking of recent history. You want to go back to George Best?
 
Oh, you got into the way back machine. I was speaking of recent history. You want to go back to George Best?


:lol: fecking hell lad, how touchy and aggressive are you?..I'm just making the point is all that if a youth player is good enough, they'll get into the first team squad...Welbeck and Cleverley are hardly ancient history...And for the record, I agree Fergie fecked up on Pogba
 
:lol: fecking hell lad, how touchy and aggressive are you?..I'm just making the point is all that if a youth player is good enough, they'll get into the first team squad...Welbeck and Cleverley are hardly ancient history...And for the record, I agree Fergie fecked up on Pogba


Only to you. It's like Moyes killed your dog. You've been over the top absurd for quite some time.
 
Right but we're the only team (besides Arsenal until recently) unwilling to pay over valuation.


Ok that's fine, but we're not the only team who does have to over pay, nor do I think we would in general have to over pay so much more than other clubs be it for unknown or well known players which was my point. I was mainly saying though that there had to be some lesser known players out there who maybe a bit above their ideal price but still affordable that we could have got. And in terms of over valuation we clearly far exceeded that on Fellaini seeing as he wasn't even worth his release clause, so we can do it.
 
Ok that's fine, but we're not the only team who does have to over pay, nor do I think we would in general have to over pay so much more than other clubs be it for unknown or well known players which was my point. I was mainly saying though that there had to be some lesser known players out there who maybe a bit above their ideal price but still affordable that we could have got. And in terms of over valuation we clearly far exceeded that on Fellaini seeing as he wasn't even worth his release clause, so we can do it.


I agree with that mostly but if Felliani was a natural CM, he would have cost us upward of 40 million and we wouldn't have paid it.

Are there players out there? Yes. Will we pay over what they are worth? Now we will. And we've left it so long we deserve to pay more.

City and Chelsea and PSG and many others now have brought loads of money into the game. We have not adapted and are pouring money into a debt hole. I do not think the Glazers factored into their business plan the change wealthy owners would bring to the game.
 
Only to you. It's like Moyes killed your dog. You've been over the top absurd for quite some time.


:lol:
1. I never wanted him but I said I'd say how it went.
2. Look what happened in the summer...Go and try defend that.
3. Look at the way we are playing. We have been a shambles at times.
4. His interviews and defeatist attitude at times have been moronic
5. We have lost 6 games already and still have to play Arsenal, Newcastle, Chelsea, Everton, away and City and Liverpool at home.
6. He spent 27 million on Fellaini...Not even Moyes' guardian angel could defend that!
7. He had a whole summer to fix the midfield and never did and panic bought an hour before the deadline ended.
8. Our players have looked shot of confidence and despondent at times this year with our play been bland for the majority of the season. And thats been kind
9. We are 11 points behind in the league, languishing in 7th place after been champions last season.

I'm giving my opinion. No one else is giving me grief or acting like a child just because I'm not impressed with him.

Get over it! I am not liking what I'm seeing so far from him. I have my opinion. You have yours. Deal with it!

No need to get pissy about it
 
I agree with that mostly but if Felliani was a natural CM, he would have cost us upward of 40 million and we wouldn't have paid it.

Are there players out there? Yes. Will we pay over what they are worth? Now we will. And we've left it so long we deserve to pay more.

City and Chelsea and PSG and many others now have brought loads of money into the game. We have not adapted and are pouring money into a debt hole. I do not think the Glazers factored into their business plan the change wealthy owners would bring to the game.


I really don't know why Fellaini would cost £40m. Just because a team needs a player doens't mean a club can charge anything. No one triggered his release clause, we thought we could get him for less, no one in football thought he was worth £23m by the evidence. So to try and demand twice that doesn't make sense. They could try and hold on to him and as they did squeeze some extra cash but to think just cause he played cm that they could ask £40m plus I find odd.

Again as I said us paying a bit extra is nothing new but that doesn't mean you can't find decent prices out there. As I said a few years ago everyone knew that City were looking to go all out, had bags of cash to spend and needed to go from a decent team to a top class team yet they still got players at great prices eg Toure at 24m, silva 24m, those have been great pieces of buisness. And those were established players. All I'm saying is similarly to how the likes of Gundogen have been obtained at low prices and shown the ability to become top players, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to identify a player at a lower club who can step up and who isn't massively overpriced because we're asking.
 
:lol:
1. I never wanted him but I said I'd say how it went.
2. Look what happened in the summer...Go and try defend that.
3. Look at the way we are playing. We have been a shambles at times.
4. His interviews and defeatist attitude at times have been moronic
5. We have lost 6 games already and still have to play Arsenal, Newcastle, Chelsea, Everton, away and City and Liverpool at home.
6. He spent 27 million on Fellaini...Not even Moyes' guardian angel could defend that!
7. He had a whole summer to fix the midfield and never did and panic bought an hour before the deadline ended.
8. Our players have looked shot of confidence and despondent at times this year with our play been bland for the majority of the season. And thats been kind
9. We are 11 points behind in the league, languishing in 7th place after been champions last season.

I'm giving my opinion. No one else is giving me grief or acting like a child just because I'm not impressed with him.

Get over it! I am not liking what I'm seeing so far from him. I have my opinion. You have yours. Deal with it!

No need to get pissy about it

I'm a supporter of Moyes and giving him time and yet all those negative points are in my opinion valid. I just don't agree entirely that they are all due to Moyes. He takes a large blame but not all. I also think with time all will get better.
 
Moyes so far has been $hit. First of all, the results are awful, and there's no getting around that. We've lost 6 games out of 20, and we are lying below Liverpool, Everton and Tottenham in the table. I don't even know how anyone can excuse Everton being above us. The only variable between United and Everton is David fckn Moyes.

Second, our style of play is so fckn dire. I don't know what solutions Moyes is finding. What's he bringing to the table? What's his philosophy? What's his vision? Tactics? Play it out wide to Valencia, who can't fckn cross for our strikers who can't fckn head? Overtrain the players so that they can get injured (Raf, RVP). I've seen nothing to give me hope that he turn it around. We are playing awful, unwatchable football.


Thirdly, the whole way how he handles the Man Utd manager duties are cringeworthy. The media interviews with the stupid smirk and the "people tell me" stories. The transfer business (Fabregas? Fellaini? Thiago? Herrera and the imposters). The way he talks about the players (who were champions 6-months ago), and the transition. The fact that he dismantled the whole fckn bootroom to bring in the amazingly talented coaches from Everton to oversee said transition. Because, make no mistake, we're in transition. We're well into the Evertonization of United, and anyone who can't see that is fckn blind. This sour looking cnut will run the club to the ground.
 
Moyes so far has been $hit. First of all, the results are awful, and there's no getting around that. We've lost 6 games out of 20, and we are lying below Liverpool, Everton and Tottenham in the table. I don't even know how anyone can excuse Everton being above us. The only variable between United and Everton is David fckn Moyes.

Second, our style of play is so fckn dire. I don't know what solutions Moyes is finding. What's he bringing to the table? What's his philosophy? What's his vision? Tactics? Play it out wide to Valencia, who can't fckn cross for our strikers who can't fckn head? Overtrain the players so that they can get injured (Raf, RVP). I've seen nothing to give me hope that he turn it around. We are playing awful, unwatchable football.


Thirdly, the whole way how he handles the Man Utd manager duties are cringeworthy. The media interviews with the stupid smirk and the "people tell me" stories. The transfer business (Fabregas? Fellaini? Thiago? Herrera and the imposters). The way he talks about the players (who were champions 6-months ago), and the transition. The fact that he dismantled the whole fckn bootroom to bring in the amazingly talented coaches from Everton to oversee said transition. Because, make no mistake, we're in transition. We're well into the Evertonization of United, and anyone who can't see that is fckn blind. This sour looking cnut will run the club to the ground.

:lol::lol::lol: lost my shit at that description.

I agree in the main with this post btw
 
Moyes so far has been $hit. First of all, the results are awful, and there's no getting around that. We've lost 6 games out of 20, and we are lying below Liverpool, Everton and Tottenham in the table. I don't even know how anyone can excuse Everton being above us. The only variable between United and Everton is David fckn Moyes.

Second, our style of play is so fckn dire. I don't know what solutions Moyes is finding. What's he bringing to the table? What's his philosophy? What's his vision? Tactics? Play it out wide to Valencia, who can't fckn cross for our strikers who can't fckn head? Overtrain the players so that they can get injured (Raf, RVP). I've seen nothing to give me hope that he turn it around. We are playing awful, unwatchable football.


Thirdly, the whole way how he handles the Man Utd manager duties are cringeworthy. The media interviews with the stupid smirk and the "people tell me" stories. The transfer business (Fabregas? Fellaini? Thiago? Herrera and the imposters). The way he talks about the players (who were champions 6-months ago), and the transition. The fact that he dismantled the whole fckn bootroom to bring in the amazingly talented coaches from Everton to oversee said transition. Because, make no mistake, we're in transition. We're well into the Evertonization of United, and anyone who can't see that is fckn blind. This sour looking cnut will run the club to the ground.

This is true. Phase one is probably complete in that we're useless against any team in the top half of the league.

Why in the name of feck did Fergie have to pick him?
 
I really don't know why Fellaini would cost £40m. Just because a team needs a player doens't mean a club can charge anything. .


It's simple supply and demand. We will always pay more for a glaring need. Always.
 
Moyes so far has been $hit. First of all, the results are awful, and there's no getting around that. We've lost 6 games out of 20, and we are lying below Liverpool, Everton and Tottenham in the table. I don't even know how anyone can excuse Everton being above us. The only variable between United and Everton is David fckn Moyes.

Second, our style of play is so fckn dire. I don't know what solutions Moyes is finding. What's he bringing to the table? What's his philosophy? What's his vision? Tactics? Play it out wide to Valencia, who can't fckn cross for our strikers who can't fckn head? Overtrain the players so that they can get injured (Raf, RVP). I've seen nothing to give me hope that he turn it around. We are playing awful, unwatchable football.


Thirdly, the whole way how he handles the Man Utd manager duties are cringeworthy. The media interviews with the stupid smirk and the "people tell me" stories. The transfer business (Fabregas? Fellaini? Thiago? Herrera and the imposters). The way he talks about the players (who were champions 6-months ago), and the transition. The fact that he dismantled the whole fckn bootroom to bring in the amazingly talented coaches from Everton to oversee said transition. Because, make no mistake, we're in transition. We're well into the Evertonization of United, and anyone who can't see that is fckn blind. This sour looking cnut will run the club to the ground.


:lol:
 
It's simple supply and demand. We will always pay more for a glaring need. Always.


Yeah but once the price gets to a point that no one will pay it then that breaks down, especially when the other player can do their utmost to force the move. Do you honestly think that if Fellaini had been playing cm last season for Everton they would now charge us £40m? Chelsea need a striker doesn't mean every club is gonna stick a £40m price tag on every decent striker upwards. We might over pay, as we did for Fellaini I've never disputed that, I'm just saying all clubs have to over pay at times but also that there is surely a lesser known player out there who could step up, that we might not over pay on and if we did it could be a far from significant amount from us.
 
The thing I find hard to believe is that with what is surely an extensive scouting network we can't identify one midfielder at a smaller club in world football who could have come in and made an impact. There must be another Modric/Gundogen etc out there waiting to be found, if we won't stump up the cash. I mean maybe we did have some targets and they've gone out of the window because Moyes wants his own scouted players but I'd image if they were good enough for Fergie then that's enough for Moyes. But either way we must have some targets in place that Moyes could have had a look at to see if he agree's. If they're not willing to splash the cash on an established player than they need to accept the risk on a lesser know player.

Maybe jan isn't the time to look but I find it hard to believe over the last couple of years that we couldn't find one midifelder who was attainable.

He rejected thiago alcantara as he wanted first hand information on him, so yeah.
 
He rejected thiago alcantara as he wanted first hand information on him, so yeah.


True but he might have been an extreme case as a pretty snap decision was needed with Bayern on the case as well. But yeah that is a fair point.
 
Yeah but once the price gets to a point that no one will pay it then that breaks down, especially when the other player can do their utmost to force the move. Do you honestly think that if Fellaini had been playing cm last season for Everton they would now charge us £40m? Chelsea need a striker doesn't mean every club is gonna stick a £40m price tag on every decent striker upwards. We might over pay, as we did for Fellaini I've never disputed that, I'm just saying all clubs have to over pay at times but also that there is surely a lesser known player out there who could step up, that we might not over pay on and if we did it could be a far from significant amount from us.


If you can come up with a better explanation for why we haven't bought one, then I'm all ears. But so far I haven't heard one. If a team doesn't want to part with a player and they know we need that player desperately, you can be sure they make us pay a ridiculous amount. What other teams want is irrelevant. It's simply our need for said position.
 
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