What sort of defense of the defense is "well they scored on the counter attack". Defending counter attacks is also part of well....defending.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Mourinhos teams
Mourinho never had horrendous midfields because he has the pulling power to attract the players he needs....probably same reason why Martinez got a world class striker at the first go at Everton where as Moyes in his whole time there was not able to attract one
A different manager wouldn't have made the decisions Moyes did in the summer. Our midfield wouldn't be in the state it is. Moyes made bad decisions in the summer and its costing him.
You seriously think Mourinho/guardiola wouldn't challenge for the title had we appointed them?
Yes, midfielders don't want to play at Manchester United. I think you've really nailed it there.
No, Mourinho wouldn't have contended for the title. Because our midfield is shit. He might have us fourth but that's about it.
And Pep has a job, so you may as well ask about how Busby would have done.
His current Chelsea midfield?
Mourinho would have brought in a few good players (better than Fellaini) and he wouldn't ask for a season to assess the squad and get to know the place, he'd put his stamp on the team, the play style, the club, immediately. Moyes seems to want to tread water in his first season.
To be fair, Ramirez and Lampard are hardly great. And he has won titles against odds before (UCL with Inter/Porto, league with Madrid). Saying that Mourinho wouldn't compete for the title when he did it always (and haven't finished in a worse position than second in more than a decade) is ridiculous.
I find it funny how we are excellent away from home, losing points only in tough fixtures (bar the Cardiff unfortunate late goal). At home though, we struggle. That suggests to me the issue lies with the players and not the manager.
Before people jump on me that is not me saying Moyes isn't underachieving or it is all the players fault. It's me saying there is clearly much more going on than "the ability of our squad" or "inept manager".
All the players, staff, and whoever else at this club has for years found Old Trafford a place of safety. A fortress. Why? Because we had SAF in charge who could front any bad performance and absorb all tension and pressure at our home games. That's now gone. The players clearly are feeling the weight of expectation - why else would we be finding life harder at home than away? Blame their lies with the manager in that he should be better preparing his teams mentally. But can he change that all by himself so quijckly after years of Fergusons protection? Our players are exposed. Away teams know Old Trafford isn't a fortress anymore. The prize of a win at Old Trafford is anoihh to motivate any opposing team. Combined with the pressure on our players, this is causing us a problem.
We don't need to change manager. We don't need a complete overhaul in squad. These are ludicrous suggestions. Also, saying the blame is all the manager or the players is utterly wrong too. We need to be more balanced and appreciative of the massive mental changes taking place in our players this season yet so many seem to neglect that. This was never going to be an easy experience for is fans or the players or the new manager. People seem to focus solely on the hard skills or technical deficiencies of our staff and players yet if someone raises the enormous change and it's mental impact as a point it gets written off as an excuse. This is wrong and frankly people who say this simply don't understand the simplest aspects of human nature.
None of us know the best situation. We don't know if in the end we will have to part with Moyes. We don't know if the current players will ever be able to recover from the mental issues currently hampering them. But what I do know is sacking Moyes right now is a very bad idea. I honestly think all we need is time. Time to adjust, to change, to develop, not technically but mentally. Of course we need to strengthen our squad but so does everyone on a consistent basis. But I feel the biggest cure for our situation is time. Unfortunately as fans that is hard for us but, objectively I truly believe that's all we need. Time.
Before people jump on me that is not me saying Moyes isn't underachieving or it is all the players fault. It's me saying there is clearly much more going on than "the ability of our squad" or "inept manager".
All the players, staff, and whoever else at this club has for years found Old Trafford a place of safety. A fortress. Why? Because we had SAF in charge who could front any bad performance and absorb all tension and pressure at our home games. That's now gone. The players clearly are feeling the weight of expectation - why else would we be finding life harder at home than away? Blame their lies with the manager in that he should be better preparing his teams mentally. But can he change that all by himself so quijckly after years of Fergusons protection? Our players are exposed. Away teams know Old Trafford isn't a fortress anymore. The prize of a win at Old Trafford is anoihh to motivate any opposing team. Combined with the pressure on our players, this is causing us a problem.
We don't need to change manager. We don't need a complete overhaul in squad. These are ludicrous suggestions. Also, saying the blame is all the manager or the players is utterly wrong too. We need to be more balanced and appreciative of the massive mental changes taking place in our players this season yet so many seem to neglect that. This was never going to be an easy experience for is fans or the players or the new manager. People seem to focus solely on the hard skills or technical deficiencies of our staff and players yet if someone raises the enormous change and it's mental impact as a point it gets written off as an excuse. This is wrong and frankly people who say this simply don't understand the simplest aspects of human nature.
None of us know the best situation. We don't know if in the end we will have to part with Moyes. We don't know if the current players will ever be able to recover from the mental issues currently hampering them. But what I do know is sacking Moyes right now is a very bad idea. I honestly think all we need is time. Time to adjust, to change, to develop, not technically but mentally. Of course we need to strengthen our squad but so does everyone on a consistent basis. But I feel the biggest cure for our situation is time. Unfortunately as fans that is hard for us but, objectively I truly believe that's all we need. Time.
You're talking about a guy who has the ability to bench Mata. Mata would walk into our midfield and immediately be the best midfielder.
Exactly!
Go back to the last page where someone quotes Moyes saying he had three or four targets.
That's not treading water. That's someone fecking up. But I'm of the midset Woodward completely fecked up this summer, you might think it's Moyes who makes the deals. I dont.
Aye. Mourinho has worked at big clubs, one no smaller than United and where the pressure is just as immense as replacing Fergie simply because it's Real Madrid, he knows the transfer market and players at the highest levels, he's won trophies and done so in England as well. It's ludicrous to just claim he wouldn't be doing better, even far better, with all that going for him compared with Moyes.
Weird because that's not what I did. I just said we couldn't be challenging for the title under Jose.
Nah, I am talking about the other guy. The one who took the team who finished 15 points below us last season and now is 9 points above us (2 off the top).
Mata is a No.10. We have a good No.10 too. And another good one on the bench.
Well, we know some of those targets. Baines wouldn't have made a huge difference, Fabregas was unrealistic and Moyes should have provided other options sooner than he did (Herrera popped up very late) and Woodward did get him Fellaini.
We're 11 points from the top. You don't think we'd have, say, 8-9 points more at least with Mourinho? That would have us challenging big time.
Yeah, but you're opinion was invalidated on this subject when you started hating Moyes in July for me.
No, it doesn't. I don't hate Moyes, I just think that he isn't even remotely good enough for us. Same as I don't hate Big Sam but if we decide to hire him, I wouldn't think that he's the bestest thing to ever exist.
On the other side, an opinion gets invalidated if the reality opposes it. If pretty much everyone who didn't rate Moyes, thought that we won't do well and we aren't doing well, then I don't know how their opinion about Moyes not being that good gets invalidated.
A guy who is very familiar with the manager's style of play and is very very good a crossing compared to our current back wouldn't have made a difference? Plain wrong.
You can get anyone for the right price.
So what? He was there for the taking.
There you go. Showing your hand.
Chances are he would have actually bought midfielders. Not Fellaini, anyway, because he actually knows the market at those levels. Even without signing anyone I reckon he would have earned us some extra points that would put us near the top three, and therefore in the mix.
Baines wouldn't have made a difference because the last thing we need is another crossing merchant. We need someone to offer us something different.
Maybe we could have gotten Fabregas if we offered something crazy, like 50m. Should we have done that? More realistic to expect Moyes to offer someone else.
As for Fellaini, the issue is the signing was so bloody wrong. Here's a case in which he GOT the player he wanted. What did that add?
AlwaysRedwood, it's fine sticking up for the manager. But you're doing it blindly, sorry.
You were talking for this guy (who is very familiar with the manager's style of play and is very good scoring from crosses compared to our other midfielder:
We're going to be in the europa league next season. Just don't see us making the top 4 now. I was more optimistic with our recent run but today has set us back and put us right back at square one again. We lose, everyone ahead of us gains points. Our record in the big games is abysmal, absolute abysmal. It's almost like the record you expect to see from someone near the bottom of the league. Anybody can come to OT and get a result now, and although I was optimistic after recent results, the teams we were against and our performances (bar Villa, some of West Ham) were rather crap too. Just very little positives this season. Januzaj's introduction to the first team is the only thing I can think of. Rooney's playing well, but why shouldn't he? He is meant to be our main man after all.
I think Baines would make a massive difference. I think you need a LB more than a new CM.
Ramirez is a very good footballer and Lampard scores an atrocious amount of goals from the centre of the park. Both of them are certainly not deserving of your synopsis.
It is too easy to blame the manager. He can only tell the players what to do, he can't make them do it. I see no fault of his today. He put out a very strong team and we were thr ones who looked more likely at 0-0. He made a couple of positive substitutions with Kagawa/Chico and it's up to thr players then.
And Carrick was the best midfielder in the league (by a big margin last season). And Fellaini cost 27.5m pounds.
So yeah, our midfield shouldn't have been much worse than Chelsea's.
and i was going to quote the exact same part
read CAREFULLY ...he said SAF gave him a list of players.....the fyck him and Woodie were doing all summer then?!
I don't know how often you watch full United games... We can use a new left back, but our creativity level is dreadful. We're really clueless at times.
Baines offers creativity. I think you need to stop conceding poor goals more than you need to create chances.
As bad as it may sound as it's not the 'United way' I seriously hope Moyes is less naive for top 8 fixtures laters on, we are too susceptible on the counter. We should start going 4-3-3 and focus on making ourselves defensively stronger and harder to break down (*deep inward sigh*), the one game we did win we focused more on organization. The simple fact of the matter is we aren't outplaying anyone with this midfield.
Agreed. Baines is fantastic, but given his age, it would be a wiser investment to sign someone like Shaw (if he'd even want to join United), who could potentially be first choice for over a decade. In any event, Evra has been diabolical and a new left-back must be signed.
Shaw would be a good investment, but if you want one who can offer creativity as well, it has to be Baines.
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