Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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True, but i understand Moyes is a hands on manager who likes to personally do the coaching so my question is as we have as many coaches as midfielders are they contributing?
He picked the right team and made the right subs given our personnel. The issue is our squad simply isn't good enough. I don't think performances are anything to do with tactics or training as the tactics are largely the same as last year and some players have actually improved under Moyes.
Evra, Ferdinand, Valencia can't be relied upon. We need two new fullbacks and a midfielder otherwise we're going to continue to get fecked by the better team
Evra, Ferdinand, Valencia can't be relied upon. We need two new fullbacks and a midfielder otherwise we're going to continue to get fecked by the better team
We've got much better players than Everton and Southampton yet they play fluid football and never look uncomfortable in possession.
I'm starting to think Moyes simply doesn't know how to get his teams playing attacking football. He's never done it. It's one thing getting a team to look solid, but that's not going to cut it here and he's realized that. Problem is he doesn't have a clue what to do, other than simply name attacking players in his line-up. Doesn't really cut it when there's no gameplan, no idea behind our general attacking game from open play and no cohesion in the side when attacking.
It just means we're leaving ourselves more open to counter attacks.
Given Fergie used the same boring tactics over recent years, would it not be a more logical that the players we have are the cause of that style?? If you're going to use that against Moyes then you have to do the same for Fergie as he was the one who ingrained this style into the players!!
Given the players we've got and the fact Moyes was taking over a legend I simply refute that it was possible for him to walk in say the previous style was wrong/shit and demand the players now play to his style. He'll need time with the young ones and bring in his own players to implement such a dramatic change successfully.
You could also argue Everton players were used to the tactics set by Moyes and yet they adapted to change.
Also I don't get why people seem to have it in their heads, we were awful last season. Watch the City and Chelsea away games. At times we were brilliant. We blew away all the other teams despite quite a few times going behind. Unlucky against Real Madrid. We were quite fun to watch especially when chasing a game.
Also I don't get why people seem to have it in their heads, we were awful last season. Watch the City and Chelsea away games. At times we were brilliant. We blew away all the other teams despite quite a few times going behind. Unlucky against Real Madrid. We were quite fun to watch especially when chasing a game.
Because we were awful last season we were just bloody effective and lucky with injuries to key personnel.
Everton's results and performances are based around 4 key players who have all come in to the team this season (McCarthy, Lukaku, Barry, Barkley) and replaced the dross, it's not rocket science. Southampton have had changes as well which has taken their style one step further.
We're only a couple of players away from entertaining football again but without changes to personnel it isn't going to happen.
What's happening to United this season is what I thought should really be happening to them last season, but it never happened.
I look down that side and it's just full of problems in most positions. This argument that United have player for player one of the best sides in the league is just quite far from the mark. I don't think any of the midfield would get into any of the other sides. Carrick hasn't played well for a good while, Januzaj is still very young(but obviously immensely talented), and all the rest would be lucky to play Europa League football judging by current form. That's a significant problem.
What I've been surprised about though is how weak United have been defensively all season. Smalling has regressed under Moyes, Jones has really not played CB all that often, and Ferdinand and Vidic are very nearly at the end now. Evra has been very poor and De Gea hasn't been able to cope with that.
I thought at the very least this season, United would be a solid outfit that won the games they were supposed to but would come up short in the bigger games away from home which would prevent them from winning the league. Losing at home to West Brom was massive though. That started the trend of sides going to OT for a win and it's made things very hard for Moyes.
I look down that side and it's just full of problems in most positions. This argument that United have player for player one of the best sides in the league is just quite far from the mark. I don't think any of the midfield would get into any of the other sides. Carrick hasn't played well for a good while, Januzaj is still very young(but obviously immensely talented), and all the rest would be lucky to play Europa League football judging by current form. That's a significant problem.
What I've been surprised about though is how weak United have been defensively all season. Smalling has regressed under Moyes, Jones has really not played CB all that often, and Ferdinand and Vidic are very nearly at the end now. Evra has been very poor and De Gea hasn't been able to cope with that.
I thought at the very least this season, United would be a solid outfit that won the games they were supposed to but would come up short in the bigger games away from home which would prevent them from winning the league. Losing at home to West Brom was massive though. That started the trend of sides going to OT for a win and it's made things very hard for Moyes.
Without wanting to sound like I'm on a wum because I'm not remotely, I do also think that the refereeing United have had at OT has been dramatically different to previous seasons. There have been plenty of 50/50s that you just don't get in your favour any more. It's probably worth 5-7 points this season alone.
So why didn't Moyes replace the dross?
Yes Martinez made signings because he identified the weakness. Yet Moyes gives out I started in July.
Our home record is shocking..
We have lost as many as we have won and only scored 12 goals
We have lost as many as we have won and only scored 12 goals
4 home losses and 3 of them to sides that haven't won at OT for 20 years or more.
It's the cool thing to do now in Moyes support. 'We were always shit, so this isn't anything new, no-one would have done better'.
Of course, while Zombie football was present last years, we were excellent when we were losing and turned so many games (IIRC the most in EPL era). We were excellent against City away and when we were leading 2-0 we had a goal incorrectly disallowed and then we should had a penalty. If those decisions would have gone our way we would have won 4 or 5-0. But yeah, we were shit. We were the better team against Madrid and only a Turkish twat referee eliminated us, but apparently this team isn't good enough to finish in top 4.
Madness!
The annoyance last season was we only started to play well when going a goal behind.
This season once we go a goal down apart from Hull, we tend to run out of ideas.
This season once we go a goal down apart from Hull, we tend to run out of ideas.
On that I agree but I have no idea if that's down to Moyes or Woodward. I'd assume from that fact he discussed the issues in public and that one of the his former players came out moaning the club hadn't given him what he needed that it wasn't his fault entirely.
If it isn't fixed by the start of next season he should simply be out of the door.
I was disappointed to hear that he thought we'd played well last night in the post match presser.I will support Moyes, and I believe he must be able to bring in his own players and create a side that he is largely responsible for before I start making a decision on whether he should be the manager of Manchester United, but he was kidding nobody last night.We were shit, and yes we had some bad decisions go against us but still, we should have been at least 2 down at HT!
Overall he has looked more comfortable in his position but his players are letting him down with below standard performances, and yes he picks the team but this team has hit the wall.It stopped just short of hitting the wall last season.He must rebuild and then see how that looks, and for now it it's a case of hoping that somehow we can get enough results to see us though to the CL.It's going to be a long season, we knew that after five games and I think our home record could read a lot uglier come May City and Liverpool will be favourites to come here and win.Bad times people but we'll rise again soon!
Overall he has looked more comfortable in his position but his players are letting him down with below standard performances, and yes he picks the team but this team has hit the wall.It stopped just short of hitting the wall last season.He must rebuild and then see how that looks, and for now it it's a case of hoping that somehow we can get enough results to see us though to the CL.It's going to be a long season, we knew that after five games and I think our home record could read a lot uglier come May City and Liverpool will be favourites to come here and win.Bad times people but we'll rise again soon!
Moyes has been lucky with the press as well strangely enough. If he was a foreign manager and he was producing the exact same results, the stick he would be getting would be horrendous.
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It isn't strange at all. The press was talking for a long time how big clubs don't look at British managers despite they are good. Now United made a gamble on a British manager and until now he has done a very bad job. Which contradicts everything the press was saying so it's normal that their critics are reserved.
Of course if Pellegrini would have been doing the same, they wouldn't be talking for anything else.
A good and valid point. With the influx of foreign players and managers, there does seem to be a desire in the press for Brits to be a success. Oliver Holt is continually supporting and reasoning as to how Moyes needs time, patience for what he sees as eventual success.
No I don't think it's strange either despite my wording. It's reflected on this forum as many would still would prefer Moyes to be manager next season while some have even quoted as saying he has done nothing wrong since coming in all based on a unwillingness to be wrong.
I think it's showing a lack of accountability that Moyes is facing.
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Had we had someone do the kind of coaching and work at united that someone like Martinez had done at Everton, people would be raving about this squad.
I don't think we're getting less decisions at all. And I watch united far more than you. Were just playing like shit and that's when the bad decisions come across as worse.
In the years gone by there were plenty of 50/50 decisions we didn't get, but it hardly ever mattered, because we won most games regardless. Right now we had needed a bit of luck to win games and therefore it becomes a talking point. Last season I lost count how many weird decisions went against us at home, but it never mattered as we just beat most teams anyway.
The worst thing about these home games is that it's not like we've been outplayed. Just think we've been out-thought and outdone tactically.
There's a reason we're faring better away from home than at home. I feel we're too predictable at home so teams sit back and just counter us, while we struggle to break them down. Away from home the onus is on them to come out and attack more so I think we can sit back and counter them thus not having to break them down. Well I think that's partly the reason anyway.
There's a reason we're faring better away from home than at home. I feel we're too predictable at home so teams sit back and just counter us, while we struggle to break them down. Away from home the onus is on them to come out and attack more so I think we can sit back and counter them thus not having to break them down. Well I think that's partly the reason anyway.
This! Against many of the teams we've lost to, decisions simply shouldn't come into it. We should have enough to win regardless!
Yep, it is becoming a worry.
As Anduin said, the decisions against us are getting highlighted now because we're not getting the results. The refereeing wasn't ever massively different; opposition fans like yourself just kept jumping on the ones that were in our favour because we kept winning and that annoyed you.
You have to look at the City result in context ffs. We go 1-0 up and then Kompany gets taken off injured and is replaced by Kolo Toure, we double our lead and despite the fact we should have had a third we still crumble and let them back into the match before being saved by a deflected free kick. We had Jones, Rafael, Van Persie, and a fit and in form Carrick at our disposal, Moyes hasn't had that luxury very often this season. If they had all stayed fit, along with Fellaini, it could have made a massive difference. Every other team has strengthened this season so last season is irrelevant anyway.
I understand that it's very easy to criticise Moyes, but it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't really left with a squad worthy of champions. The good thing about this season is that the cracks haven't been papered over due to us winning every week, it must now be painfully obvious that drastic improvements are needed. If Moyes doesn't realise this, then perhaps he does deserve to go, but at least give the man a chance.
The main issue I see with the squad is the age imbalance. We have a few players who are too old to be starting every week, if at all, a lot of very young players who are relatively inexperienced, and very few players in their prime, in truth I'd say probably only Rooney. The foundations are there for future success, but I can definitely see a few barren years unless we buy players who will improve us now. I wouldn't actually be against a couple of short term fixes to see us through the next couple of years, as long as the price is right of course.
We have won 6 in a row before this and we should have been better yesterday. The players should have got the job done.
The thing is that our performances this season have been more or less consistent. Consistently underwhelming, with a very few exceptions, most notably the games against Leverkusen which were genuinely great.
But apart from those we mainly played very poor football and seem to have no real gameplan. The poorer sides have been mostly incapable of taking advantage of this, the better sides almost invariably punished us - we have a terrible record against teams in the top 8 even though we played the majority of games against them at Old Trafford (five out of eight, I think). Which also explains, at least partly, why our away record is better: we played shittier teams away from OT.
The squad does need a clearout, important positions must be strengthened but right now it's hard to say how. Because signing better players and sticking them into the same stale system is not going to cut it. Especially as it's not quite clear what the system is: it looks like players are just thrown on to the pitch in a rough 4-4-2 formation and then told that they should go looking for the right winger all the time. It's rigid, boring and ineffective. We need some kind of plan about how to approach games, we need to implement an actual playing style.
Yeah, the symptoms of this were there under Fergie, no doubt. They just got significantly worse - I mean I constantly criticised our playing style in the last few years but we still scored 86 goals last season... that can't be down to just luck and "RvP bailing us out" - with no sign of change in style or approach. If Moyes is trying to pull off the same thing Fergie pulled off then he should be as good as him or at least close to. As he's clearly not he should try something else, something he can call his own. If he doesn't even attempt to do that I can't see him lasting beyond the summer here because what's the point? If he's not even trying to make his mark on the team and we play terrible football and achieve poor results then why should we keep him here?
Talking about our luck is a fallacy. Yes, we could have got a result against Spurs or against Everton; but on the other hand, Norwich or Hull could have easily beaten us had they taken their chances. The injury crisis is as per usual, there's nothing new about that. Fergie did not have to contend with a long-term injury to Carrick - but hey, we always knew our reliance on him was scary and Moyes had an entire summer to do something about that and he came up with Fellaini. That he started work on July 1 does not cut it as an excuse: he was named as Fergie's successor in May, he could have started work sooner. Pellegrini or Mourinho don't use the same excuse, do they?
But apart from those we mainly played very poor football and seem to have no real gameplan. The poorer sides have been mostly incapable of taking advantage of this, the better sides almost invariably punished us - we have a terrible record against teams in the top 8 even though we played the majority of games against them at Old Trafford (five out of eight, I think). Which also explains, at least partly, why our away record is better: we played shittier teams away from OT.
The squad does need a clearout, important positions must be strengthened but right now it's hard to say how. Because signing better players and sticking them into the same stale system is not going to cut it. Especially as it's not quite clear what the system is: it looks like players are just thrown on to the pitch in a rough 4-4-2 formation and then told that they should go looking for the right winger all the time. It's rigid, boring and ineffective. We need some kind of plan about how to approach games, we need to implement an actual playing style.
Yeah, the symptoms of this were there under Fergie, no doubt. They just got significantly worse - I mean I constantly criticised our playing style in the last few years but we still scored 86 goals last season... that can't be down to just luck and "RvP bailing us out" - with no sign of change in style or approach. If Moyes is trying to pull off the same thing Fergie pulled off then he should be as good as him or at least close to. As he's clearly not he should try something else, something he can call his own. If he doesn't even attempt to do that I can't see him lasting beyond the summer here because what's the point? If he's not even trying to make his mark on the team and we play terrible football and achieve poor results then why should we keep him here?
Talking about our luck is a fallacy. Yes, we could have got a result against Spurs or against Everton; but on the other hand, Norwich or Hull could have easily beaten us had they taken their chances. The injury crisis is as per usual, there's nothing new about that. Fergie did not have to contend with a long-term injury to Carrick - but hey, we always knew our reliance on him was scary and Moyes had an entire summer to do something about that and he came up with Fellaini. That he started work on July 1 does not cut it as an excuse: he was named as Fergie's successor in May, he could have started work sooner. Pellegrini or Mourinho don't use the same excuse, do they?
Six in a row against crap teams. Beating the lower half of the table isn't an achievement; it's to be expected at Manchester United. His results against good teams:
.625 points per game against the top 8. We've also played the most games of those teams and have the fewest points. This doesn't account for how awful we have been at home.It's not as though this couldn't have been predicted from his Everton results when he never beat Liverpool.
That's a continuing trend from his Everton days.
We look devoid of attacking ideas against good sides. I'm beginning to fear for his reign.
We look devoid of attacking ideas against good sides. I'm beginning to fear for his reign.
Same here. I wasn't sure when he took over and I'm really doubtful now whether he's good enough.
Transfer activity was shit, his ideas on the training pitch seem to be doing nothing either and he doesn't seem to be able to fill the players with any belief whatsoever.
Cant help but think having a fit Jones and RVP this whole season would have us comfortably in the top 3/4
We're halfway through the season and no one outside of Rooney has more than 2 assists in the league, Rooney has 9 and off the top of my head he has set-piece assists for RVP vs. Arsenal, Smalling vs. Hull and Evra vs. Cardiff. RVP has 2 assists one of which is a corner for Rooney vs. Stoke. Valencia, Evra, Januzaj all have 2 assists from open play. Chicharito has two as well but I don't really think the ricochet vs. Norwich should really count and Welbeck has one. I'm no great fan of stats but it's pretty damning that none of our midfielders have a single assist and Januzaj is our only player outside of our strikers to have more than 1 goal. In 2011/12 Young, Giggs, Nani and Valencia had 38 assists between them compared to this year when they have 2. Our insistence in persisting with wide-play is baffling, even last year posters were considering playing a diamond with no wingers at all!
If I'm not mistaken, we've scored six (6)! goals from open play at Old Trafford in the league.
That's astonishingly shit and a good pointer as to where the problems lie.
That's astonishingly shit and a good pointer as to where the problems lie.
So why is that issue only at home and not away from home? You're hell-bent on attacking Moyes, but you show no appreciation what might actually be the cause of the issue. Compare our home and away form. Do you think a team with a bad manager performs like that, or a team which is feeling the weight of pressure and expectation which they have never ever had to deal with before due to Ferguson?
People have been saying that our team looked shoddy for years. Every season we've had the RAWK post whereby 9 out of 11 player's are better than our team and every season it's been proven to be hogwash. The fact is it wasn't true then and isn't true now.
Arsenal's bench against Cardiff consisted of: Vermaelen, Rosicky, Fabianski, Bendtner, Jenkinson, Miyaichi and Gnabry
Liverpool's bench vs Hull: Jones, Agger, Aspas, Coutinho, Alberto, Sakho, Allen
Likewise starting in those games were the likes of Sterling, Moses, Flanagan, Johnson, Podolski, Sagna
We have a group of player's that we all agree aren't up to City's level. But almost every Premier League team has the same selection of not quite good enough player's. To compare to the above United's bench against Spurs consisted of: Lindegaard, Hernandez, Ferdinand, Young, Fletcher, Kagawa, Buttner. To say this United side has problems in every position would be saying every team apart from Man City have problems in every position. On paper Arsenal have problems with their central defence, full backs and strikers; Liverpool with their defence, full backs, midfield; Chelsea their defence, full backs and strikers.
For every Ashley Young, there's a Bendtner and a Moses (not good enough even as a squad option). For every Kagawa, there's a Walcott and a Sterling (inconsistent but look good at times). For every Cleverley, there's a Sagna or a Johnson (shouldn't be first choice but are because of the weakness of the position). For every Jones, there's a Wilshere or a Coutinho (young, potentially World Class but not quite there yet). For every Rooney there's a Suarez or an Ozil (vital attacking outlet), in fact we have RVP and Rooney.
The fact is the manager hasn't got the players we have, which are superior to Arsenal/Liverpool and not dissimilar to Chelsea, playing cohesively and staying fit. His mismanagement of RVP has been Wenger-esque (playing him for 90 mins the second he's technically fit). He's now doing the same with Rooney. Defensively as you say we look horrendous and offensively we just throw the ball wide right and blindly cross it in: rinse, repeat.
You play the tactics we've employed this season with any team (unless you had Messi or Ronaldo in the right forward position) and you'll lose time and time again.
We've played poorer teams away from home. Look up the Storeytime table and you'll see.
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