Moyes So Far!

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LonelyFire said:
I wouldnt be so quick to praise Moyes on this. There is every chance Rooney is playing for a move - in fact, im almost certain thats what he's doing.
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Pfff, this shit again. Was he 'playing for a move' when he had his worst ever season in 2010 and then reportedly asked to leave the club?

Moyes talked about wanting Rooney back to his best and some ways he wanted to achieve that, and now Rooney is back to his best. It seems churlish to the point of stupidity to deny Moyes any credit for that and try and turn it into another 'big bad Wayne' angle.
 
Brightonian said:
Pfff, this shit again. Was he 'playing for a move' when he had his worst ever season in 2010 and then reportedly asked to leave the club?

Moyes talked about wanting Rooney back to his best and some ways he wanted to achieve that, and now Rooney is back to his best. It seems churlish to the point of stupidity to deny Moyes any credit for that and try and turn it into another 'big bad Wayne' angle.
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Wayne does what Wayne wants - if you dont know that by now then i cant help you.
 
buckooo1978 said:
there's been a lot of factors which have contributed to our mixed season so far.....
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Excellent, well-balanced post and I agree with pretty much every point.

I can't exactly say I feel 'very positive' yet because I'm not entirely convinced that our upturn in results constitutes a recovery just yet - after a few good performances we were defensively shaky against Hull and then generally poor against Norwich. Although both those games were badly affected by the injury crisis so possibly the fact that we got six points out of them is further proof of a 'recovery'.

What I like most about your post is that you recognise that there is a wide spread of blame for our poor start this season. Some definitely lies with Moyes - there have been tactical mistakes and games where we simply looked very poorly coached compared to a number of PL sides with far worse players than ours. Some lies with Fergie - the failure over a number of seasons to improve or even maintain the level of the squad, and also a downturn in the effectiveness and style of our football. Some lies with the players, who have let themselves down on a number of occasions this season. Some lies with the upper management, notably with regard to a real disaster of a transfer window. And some lies with unavoidable circumstances - the transition, the loss/decline of key older players, the injuries etc. etc.
 
There's one small but quite significant detail in these summaries.

Many of the problems and mistakes were clearly present during Sir Alex era.

Dire, chaotic football at times, disappointing windows of opportunity, been there, done that, got the t-shirt... David Moyes will manage everything but he's not a walking one man club. He'll need to work in productive co-operation with players, staff, higher board, even the fans and of course a not the tallest guy with the money.

If this huge group of people will find understanding and chemistry between, it will definitely help David Moyes win the Champions League and scoop few domestic trophies.

Sir Alex had almost the same problems but was pushing forward and got himself to the point where he had support from pretty much everyone even when he didn't signed all the best players on the market.
 
Brightonian said:
Pfff, this shit again. Was he 'playing for a move' when he had his worst ever season in 2010 and then reportedly asked to leave the club?

Moyes talked about wanting Rooney back to his best and some ways he wanted to achieve that, and now Rooney is back to his best. It seems churlish to the point of stupidity to deny Moyes any credit for that and try and turn it into another 'big bad Wayne' angle.
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I agree. What we know is that Moyes wanted Rooney to stay and that Rooney has responded very well to whatever it is Moyes has been telling him/making him do in training. Anything beyond that is pure conjecture - and even if Rooney has an ulterior motive, Moyes still has made the right play. If you remove Rooney from this season's equation - well, that's a grim one, to say the least.
 
LonelyFire said:
Wayne does what Wayne wants - if you dont know that by now then i cant help you.
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Yep, every time Rooney has played badly over his career it's been because he didn't want to play well. It's all part of his master plan, as recorded in such esteemed publications as the Express, Mirror, Fail etc.

I honestly can't get into this ridiculous argument again. Nor do I want you to explain to me that the moon landing was faked or that Bush planned 9/11.
 
Brightonian said:
Yep, every time Rooney has played badly over his career it's been because he didn't want to play well. It's all part of his master plan, as recorded in such esteemed publications as the Express, Mirror, Fail etc.

I honestly can't get into this ridiculous argument again. Nor do I want you to explain to me that the moon landing was faked or that Bush planned 9/11.
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Oh for fecks sake, is there any need for you to behave like a fecking child because someone disagrees with you? Oh noes, i dont share your view of the world, alert the god damn press!

I never mentioned performances - he's a damn good football player and gives his heart for the team. That said, he was openly courted by Chelsea all summer and was evidently open to the idea. He hasnt moved and subsequently is playing well - every Utd fan should be happy, as am i. Moyes may well be the reason Rooney has got back to his best (i bloody well hope it is) - then again, he may not. I never said it was a definite - all i said was dont be too quick to assume one way or the other. If its such a ridiculous argument, then dont bother getting involved. Then again, if you can get involved without behaving like a keyboard gangster then by all means lets discuss.

Its a forum. Its an opinion. Its a different one from yours. Simples.
 
Mad Winger said:
The keyword being "at times".

Apart from the cups, we've been consistently dire for half a season, with the odd highlight. Never in my United supporter days can I remember us being this dire for so long.
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We're really not that much if any more dire than last season or the season before, and at least last season we had Carrick and RVP at the top of their games, both of whom have been carrying injuries/off their best most the season so far. I'd say than certainly in Rooney and Januzaj and too a lesser extent Welbeck, Valencia, Nani and Young, we're seeing somewhat better showings than we did last season and so when injuries do subside and Carrick/RVP are properly back, there's every chance we will see better football.
 
We've been fairly poor to watch in large patches since 2011. It's going to take the realisation of whatever Moyes' philosophy is here to change that, which could take god knows how long. Luckily he does seem to have us winning when playing bad, injury hit and from losing positions, at least on recent evidence. This is exactly what SAF meant when addressing the crowd that day he packed it all in.
 
Twigginater said:
Did you watch us last year?
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I did, and I was far more entertained than I am now.

I'm one of the few(?) people who absolutely loved last season. I thought we played our best football since the Ronaldo days and was super excited for this season. We walked the league, did well in Europe(only a certain cnut of a ref could stop us), scored a bunch of ridiculous goals, RVP and Kagawa(and others) pulled off sexy moves every game, Carrick had his best season so far, DDG became one of the best goalies in the world, Rafael became a revelation, King Evra scored many goals etc etc. We did really well last season, both in terms of results and play.

YouTube obviously doesn't tell the whole story, but this is how I will remember last season.

 
Mad Winger said:
The keyword being "at times".

Apart from the cups, we've been consistently dire for half a season, with the odd highlight. Never in my United supporter days can I remember us being this dire for so long.
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I kind of hope we flog Kagawa back to Dortmund. Mostly because he's not good enough for us, but also just to see the fanboys explode. Fragile creatures who don't know they're born.
 
So many of those clips involve RVP as a major part of them, no surprise with him either being injured or a bit off form for most the season that we've lost a bit of sparkle, all things considered I'd say the quality of football is pretty similar to last season with the difference being that little bit of luck and the loss of the Fergie factor, coupled with other teams around us either upping their games or sorting themselves out from last season.
 
charleysurf said:
I kind of hope we flog Kagawa back to Dortmund. Mostly because he's not good enough for us, but also just to see the fanboys explode. Fragile creatures who don't know they're born.
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Off topic much?:lol:

When are people gonna learn that I don't give a crap about Kagawa the player, but rather what he represents?
 
Mad Winger said:
Off topic much?:lol:

When are people gonna learn that I don't give a crap about Kagawa the player, but rather what he represents?
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If Kagawa represents cowardice, fickleness, and everything United should never be, then you maybe you're right...
 
Ash_G said:
So many of those clips involve RVP as a major part of them, no surprise with him either being injured or a bit off form for most the season that we've lost a bit of sparkle, all things considered I'd say the quality of football is pretty similar to last season with the difference being that little bit of luck and the loss of the Fergie factor, coupled with other teams around us either upping their games or sorting themselves out from last season.
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OK, many of the clips involve RVP, but he hardly makes up for the main part of the video. There are several nice bits of plays there as well, many of which lead to these sweet RVP moves. Also, it's kind of limited how much you can push into a 4 minute video. There were obviously much more to pick out(Rafael's goals for instance). The point I'm trying to make is that we as a team were much more fluid and sexy last season.

Didn't some dude a couple of weeks back post a link proving that under Moyes we've been overly dependent on crosses and set pieces compared to the Fergie days? I'd say that's a pretty major difference...
 
We're obviously playing worse that we did last season (as our results show) but is our style or approach that much different? I thought we were pretty dire at times last season, as did a lot of other posters.

If SAF was unable to get this group of players playing attractive football then it seems slightly unrealistic to have expected Moyes (a naturally pragmatic coach) to do just that in the space of a few months. What were ye expecting?
 
charleysurf said:
If Kagawa represents cowardice, fickleness, and everything United should never be, then you maybe you're right...
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Well, according to Andy Mitten, Fergie was a big fan of Kagawa and signed him because he wanted us to adapt our style to better fit Europe. Fergie himself has also stated clearly that he believes that Kagawa has a big future in the club. He evidendly also rated him, seeing as he let him start roughly 75% of the time when he wasn't injured, often when both RVP and Rooney were fit.

But yeah, what does Fergie know...
 
Mad Winger said:
Well, according to Andy Mitten, Fergie was a big fan of Kagawa and signed him because he wanted us to adapt our style to better fit Europe. Fergie himself has also stated clearly that he believes that Kagawa has a big future in the club. He evidendly also rated him, seeing as he let him start roughly 75% of the time when he wasn't injured, often when both RVP and Rooney were fit.

But yeah, what does Fergie know...
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Ha. Moyes will be at United next season. Kagawa probably won't. We'll see where you are...
 
Mad Winger said:
OK, many of the clips involve RVP, but he hardly makes up for the main part of the video. There are several nice bits of plays there as well, many of which lead to these sweet RVP moves. Also, it's kind of limited how much you can push into a 4 minute video. There were obviously much more to pick out(Rafael's goals for instance). The point I'm trying to make is that we as a team were much more fluid and sexy last season.

Didn't some dude a couple of weeks back post a link proving that under Moyes we've been overly dependent on crosses and set pieces compared to the Fergie days? I'd say that's a pretty major difference...
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I thought it seemed pretty heavy on RVP, but tbh you could definitely make a 4 minute clip of nice football from united this season, think of some of the stuff Januzaj has done, the Bayer Lev game alone would get you a few mins of clips. What about Welbecks goal against Swansea? RVP had a cracker too. Rooney's against Hull. I really don't think last years football was significantly better.

I mean I'm not denying that we've not looked pretty 1 dimensional at times but given Moyes is new to the job, new to the players and has had a number of injuries to deal with it's relatively understandable, more so than it was under Fergie who had been in charge of these players for years and knew everything about them. I bet without doubt if you looked at threads from the last two seasons you would see many comments about the poor quality of our football, the difference with Fergie, is that we may have played shite, but we didn't lose and often found a way to win- driven last year by RVP, who hasn't been as good or as fit this season. Moyes though is starting to get that out of the players now and as I said we have some key players getting ready to return, if they get back to form I've no doubt we'll see better stuff.
 
charleysurf said:
Ha. Moyes will be at United next season. Kagawa probably won't. We'll see where you are...
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Oh I'll be here... But I'll be bitter. Bitter because Moyes has gone in the exact opposite direction of what Fergie would have wanted us to go. He's taken the one player who at least potentially could help us become more fluid and creative, and tossed him out of the team.


Chesterlestreet said:
That's deep, man. You need to change your location: "Walking in a wonderland of what Shinji represents."
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I purposely changed my location to that to piss off the haters, though:lol:
 
Ash_G said:
I thought it seemed pretty heavy on RVP, but tbh you could definitely make a 4 minute clip of nice football from united this season, think of some of the stuff Januzaj has done, the Bayer Lev game alone would get you a few mins of clips. What about Welbecks goal against Swansea? RVP had a cracker too. Rooney's against Hull. I really don't think last years football was significantly better.

I mean I'm not denying that we've not looked pretty 1 dimensional at times but given Moyes is new to the job, new to the players and has had a number of injuries to deal with it's relatively understandable, more so than it was under Fergie who had been in charge of these players for years and knew everything about them. I bet without doubt if you looked at threads from the last two seasons you would see many comments about the poor quality of our football, the difference with Fergie, is that we may have played shite, but we didn't lose and often found a way to win- driven last year by RVP, who hasn't been as good or as fit this season. Moyes though is starting to get that out of the players now and as I said we have some key players getting ready to return, if they get back to form I've no doubt we'll see better stuff.
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I'm not really using the YouTube video as evidence, though. I'm merely saying that this is how I will remember us from last season. I get that I'm a bit of a minority on this, but I really think that we played pretty good football last season. We obviously still had a lot of work to do, but it's nothing compared to now. It's not just that Fergie got the results either. We did mostly play fine football, with the occasional crappy spell. But it never lasted for too long.

Football is not really fact based when it comes to the aesthetics. It is my personal and subjective opinion that we played more fluid, threatening and entertaining football last season. What is fact based though, is that we're much more reliant on crosses and set pieces to score. And personally; I don't think that's a good thing.
 
You, Mad Winger, are worse than me and Cina of old in Nani/Valencia threads and that takes some beating.
 
Tomuś said:
You, Mad Winger, are worse than me and Cina of old in Nani/Valencia threads and that takes some beating.
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At least Fergie has my back(so to speak). As long as that is the case, then I will be forever convinced that including Kagawa in the starting XI is the right direction.

If anything, you should call me a Fergie fanboy...
 
Mad Winger said:
At least Fergie has my back(so to speak). As long as that is the case, then I will be forever convinced that including Kagawa in the starting XI is the right direction.

If anything, you should call me a Fergie fanboy...
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Ha, you use Fergies support of Kagawa to backup your Kagawa masturbation. But Fergies support of Moyes means nothing. You'd have been at the head of the Fergie-out crew in 2005. The likes of Liam Miller and Bellion playing, and no trophies, would not be what you would have signed up to United for...
 
Mad Winger said:
I'm not really using the YouTube video as evidence, though. I'm merely saying that this is how I will remember us from last season. I get that I'm a bit of a minority on this, but I really think that we played pretty good football last season. We obviously still had a lot of work to do, but it's nothing compared to now. It's not just that Fergie got the results either. We did mostly play fine football, with the occasional crappy spell. But it never lasted for too long.

Football is not really fact based when it comes to the aesthetics. It is my personal and subjective opinion that we played more fluid, threatening and entertaining football last season. What is fact based though, is that we're much more reliant on crosses and set pieces to score. And personally; I don't think that's a good thing.
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Well as I said regardless of youtube I think you can just look on this site to see people weren't exactly enamored with the quality of our football last year. Fergie had the benefit though last year of both Carrick and RVP playing as well as they ever have all season. Do you not think that has had any influence? I think we should wait and see what happens when all the key players are fit now that Moyes seems more settled. For me, Valencia, Young, Clev, Jones, Welbeck are playing better now than they did last season, Rooney undboutedly is to. Add RVP and Carrick too certainly come back, and personally for me hopefully seeing Nani and Kagawa make more of an impact in the second half of the season and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the quality of football actually improves from last season.
 
Mad Winger said:
At least Fergie has my back(so to speak). As long as that is the case, then I will be forever convinced that including Kagawa in the starting XI is the right direction.

If anything, you should call me a Fergie fanboy...
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I'm one of the biggest SAF lovers as I would probably find a way to defend him for fielding Giggs and Carrick against Barca in 2011. I didn't even jump at your Fergie quotes etc. but you love Kagawa so much it's striking. Every single one of your posts has at least one Kagawa, even if you're talking about weather.
 
I'm happy with Moyes. Sure, our league table position could have definitely be improved but I think more blame is down to the players. The way we bottled the lead against Cardiff, and the way we conceded against the likes of Everton or Newcastle - I wouldn't say that was Moyes' fault at all.

Players are starting to wake up now, and we're entering the stage of the season in which we seem to go on good winning runs.

Fergie chose Moyes for a reason. I stated at the start of the season that I expected us to do much better in the CL than in the PL in his first season. I also said that I don't expect to win the title for a good 2/3 seasons before Moyes. Now, I think it'll be sooner than that.

He didn't do a fantastic job in the Summer - but he aimed for big targets, which is what we all seem to want. Should we have negotiated better? Apparently, yes. But lessons learnt.

Top 4 this year, a good run in the CL and potentially a FA Cup/League Cup victory and we'll be bouncing ahead of next season. Moyes is learning. Managing Everton was merely experience for him ahead of United, not like-for-like preparation for it.
 
charleysurf said:
Ha, you use Fergies support of Kagawa to backup your Kagawa masturbation. But Fergies support of Moyes means nothing. You'd have been at the head of the Fergie-out crew in 2005. The likes of Liam Miller and Bellion playing, and no trophies, would not be what you would have signed up to United for...
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You are just the exact opposite of MadWinger. As much as he loves Kagawa, you hate him. You act like Kagawa killed your family. You've been a troll of the highest order in the Kagawa thread and here you are doing the same.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
You are just the exact opposite of MadWinger. As much as he loves Kagawa, you hate him. You act like Kagawa killed your family. You've been a troll of the highest order in the Kagawa thread and here you are doing the same.
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Hate Kagawa? I'm just very very disappointed in him. I had high hopes for hm, but he's being given the chance to do it for United and has not done so. But for me, no player is bigger than the club. I couldn't care if any player in the squad was transferred out in January as long as United won games. So if that makes me the opposite of a fanboy then I'm happy with that.
 
charleysurf said:
Hate Kagawa? I'm just very very disappointed in him. I had high hopes for hm, but he's being given the chance to do it for United and has not done so. But for me, no player is bigger than the club. I couldn't care if any player in the squad was transferred out in January as long as United won games. So if that makes me the opposite of a fanboy then I'm happy with that.
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Your posts speak for themselves.
 
we've had a few shaky performances lately against Hull (who had conceded 3 at home all season I'll add) and a dire first half performance against Norwich where Moyes made tactical changes which effectively won us the game.....

this at a time when we have serious injury problems to boot and that makes 6 wins in a row with 4 clean sheets....

I think we hit rock bottom against Newcastle and since then the results and generally the performances have improved, we have Fletcher back and if we can get players back from injury we will only get better......

You can see from the players reactions a real change in the squad - all the shit we have taken has galvanised the squad I think

on the topic of Rooney none of us know what his motivations are but I think Moyes has handled him perfectly, he has set him targets of breaking scoring records and made him a central part of the team. I don't think Rooney is angling for a move but I wouldn't blame him for waiting to see the kind of player were are bringing in to challenge our league and European rivals - this will be his last contract and I doubt he'll want to spend it fighting for 4th place....
 
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