Who would we expect to be in the list? How can we have someone creating chances for us or being up there with the most passes when we've had about 3 players with a consistent run in the side.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Who would we expect to be in the list? How can we have someone creating chances for us or being up there with the most passes when we've had about 3 players with a consistent run in the side.
FFS - Blaming injuries on Moyes might work if we hadn't had similar situations for the last five years as well.
Also - dithering in the market? What do you expect him to do when he's arrived here on the 1st of July?
Recently i was thinking about alternative scenario - aka SAF stayed.
In my opinion SAF would have gotten us 10 more points. We still would have lost to City and Pool but none of the WBA, Southampton, Everton or Newcastle would have happen. We would have gotten at least 10 points out of these fixtures purely because SAF knew how to push people beyond their limits.
on the other hand i blame SAF and Gill for neglecting obvious signings for many years. The midfield situation is an epic failure. Seriously i cannot believe that United couldn't find a a proper player for 4-5 years.
But that's not all - we need to remember that our squad deteriorated over last few years.
some players aged badly (Vidic, Feridand, Evra), some left without being properly replaced (Ronaldo, Scholes) some players havent yet reached their peak (Evans, Smalling).
this team needs serious investments and it has been the case for last few years in fact.
Moyes aint Fergie he needs better players at his disposal.
My main concern is that missing out in CL and up-coming WC summer with its inflated prices might be one struggle to far and could send us to Liverpool route for few years.
In my opinion SAF would have gotten us 10 more points. We still would have lost to City and Pool but none of the WBA, Southampton, Everton or Newcastle would have happen. We would have gotten at least 10 points out of these fixtures purely because SAF knew how to push people beyond their limits.
on the other hand i blame SAF and Gill for neglecting obvious signings for many years. The midfield situation is an epic failure. Seriously i cannot believe that United couldn't find a a proper player for 4-5 years.
But that's not all - we need to remember that our squad deteriorated over last few years.
some players aged badly (Vidic, Feridand, Evra), some left without being properly replaced (Ronaldo, Scholes) some players havent yet reached their peak (Evans, Smalling).
this team needs serious investments and it has been the case for last few years in fact.
Moyes aint Fergie he needs better players at his disposal.
My main concern is that missing out in CL and up-coming WC summer with its inflated prices might be one struggle to far and could send us to Liverpool route for few years.
Agree that the injuries can't be solely pinned down to Moyes' methods, just doesn't add up. Though I stress that Van Persie was fit as a fiddle in his first season, and now he can't get away from the treatment table.....no coincidence for me, he has been trained too hard too quickly.
He did dither in the market though, as evidenced by the complete lack of any coherent strategy in player recruitment during the summer window. I'm sorry but other clubs with new managers managed to get the bulk of their business done, blaming it on the guy arriving on 1st July with 2 whole months to spare is not a good excuse.
Buying Fellaini on deadline day for that ridiculous sum, and making last minute grasps for Coentrao was a result of the dithering.
Not forgetting the points Ronaldo would have won us
Mike Phealan did say that Ronaldo was on his way to OT
Mike Phealan did say that Ronaldo was on his way to OT
Yeah, wasn't the rumour that he was on his way until SAF retired?
I think we got strung along by a certain player, Fabregas. They should have given up on him straight away as I don't think he ever had any intention of coming to us. Thiago wasn't coming as soon as Pep got involved. Having a new manager and especially a new chief executive didn't help. Hopefully they won't be so naive in their dealings in future. However as you didn't want Moyes in the first place, no matter who we signed would not have made you happy.
You can read into statistics anything you want. Look at Swansea and possession, done them a lot of good hasn't it. Palace and all those tackles, still lost loads of games. I have stopped taking any notice of them.
My main bit of optimism with Moyes in the summer is also a little damning for Fergie. I thought there were certain things in the way we play (and midfield) over the last 2-3 years that were so clearly wrong and still weren't fixed, that a new manager with a fresh view would have no trouble rectifying. So even if Moyes lacks some things, that will give him a platform to improve other things.
Can't say it has happened so far. Some of our recent performances were an improvement. The last two weren't, but I won't judge him with the injuries and all - we've done well to win those and he's done well to turn it around in both.
Expectations have been lowered looking at how things have been going on, and we shouldn't just settle for fourth, but we should be realistic with our position in the table, our problems and also lack of experience of the manager. Fourth would be OK, but that's really the minimum. And only for this season.
Can't say it has happened so far. Some of our recent performances were an improvement. The last two weren't, but I won't judge him with the injuries and all - we've done well to win those and he's done well to turn it around in both.
Expectations have been lowered looking at how things have been going on, and we shouldn't just settle for fourth, but we should be realistic with our position in the table, our problems and also lack of experience of the manager. Fourth would be OK, but that's really the minimum. And only for this season.
there was that romour...basically confirmed by Phealan.
i aslo believe a super addition to our midfield would have been completed.
You do seem to be picking and choosing them a little, to be fair. Off the top of my head, for example, Rooney is leading the assists table. Which I would argue is more significant than 'chances created', because as has been discussed on here a lot recently creating a chance means providing the assist to any shot. So if you lay the ball off to some prat who blasts it into row z from 30 yards when the shot was never actually on, that's a chance created.
However, the simple fact is that if you spend most of the season in seventh or eighth place in the league, you're unlikely to be leading many of the stats tables. The league table is the only one that matters, and if we can climb our way up that, the stats will reflect it.
I knew that point would come - the types of injuries we are getting are all similar. That hasnt tended to be the case in past seasons. All im saying is parallels can be drawn from his previous seasons at Everton - particularly the injury types.
As for his business in the summer. You genuniely dont believe that from July 1st to September 2nd wasnt enough time? Then after all that time, he pays over the odds for a player he could have got for a set amount all summer. Pellegrini and Mourinho started on 1st July but didnt stop them strengthening adequately.
I would have thought the poorest teams, forced back most into their own half, would have the made the most tackles, so I'd ignore that stat. Percentage successful tackles might be a better measure, but that would depend on the style of players too.,
You have DM pal.
Mourinho strengthened adequately?
Pellegrini has an endless pool of cash and the knowledge that he can buy 5 more playerse if his signings don't pan out. Big difference.
This will sound odd, but I'm delighted Moyes is our man. During the summer I'll admit I was a little crestfallen that we didn't lure a Klopp or an Ancelotti to Old Trafford, but I couldn't be happier now. Klopp or Ancelotti have been successful with other clubs, and if they'd have come here and continued that success, as a Manchester United fan, I'd feel as though that success was honed elsewhere and just transported here. Mental, right?
With Moyes I find it romantic that we've taken on a manager who has won nothing of note in management to date yet we've the confidence in him to make us champions again. David Moyes can make Manchester United winners; Manchester United can make David Moyes a winner. It'd be the greatest two-fingers to all of our rivals who doubted him and us, and it'll make it all the more sweeter when it happens.
With Moyes I find it romantic that we've taken on a manager who has won nothing of note in management to date yet we've the confidence in him to make us champions again. David Moyes can make Manchester United winners; Manchester United can make David Moyes a winner. It'd be the greatest two-fingers to all of our rivals who doubted him and us, and it'll make it all the more sweeter when it happens.
He hasn't been injury prone for a long time, this isn't 2010. He has been fit and firing for as good as 3 seasons now, and last season he looked razor sharp.
This campaign he has not looked comfortable at all, and has obviously been playing with injuries. Moyes rushed him back in pre-season and overtrained him, he admitted it. Since then he has been in and out of the side in sporadic bursts. No coincidence for me.
Yea it is just excuse, we've won the league with a worse injury hit squad.
My take on things so far.
I think looking back it should have been pretty obvious our start to a new managers campaign would be a rocky one, looking back again I think we all knew it would but it was the severity of the slip that's caught us off guard. What's become clear recently is we really should have foresaw the problems, Moyes inheriting a Champion side with more than a few weaknesses, a side built in another mans image that has been drilled to play a certain way. Fergusons football had stagnated towards the end and he left a side that played football in exactly the image we bemoan this united side of playing. Moyes has taken a lot flack for pulling apart Fergusons old regime and hypocritically taken more for trying to play the same way as his predecessor, we can't have it both ways.
The players look to me like they relaxed once the shadow of Fergie's iron fist was no longer hanging over them but it looks like reality could be catching up. Moyes went into his defensive shell early on in order to hang in there whilst he worked out the squad, his selections and substitutions back this thinking and Mourinho has done exactly the same whilst avoiding the media critics swing blows. Moyes has been more positive recently and let youth have a run at it, Evans,Jones, Smalliing are now our first choice CB's, Januzaj is our best wide option, Wellbeck was potm and even Cleverley has come in for praise.
I see a new dawn for Manchester United in a more positive light than most and us having slipped under the radar has seen a good reaction, we are right in the mix now despite the gap to the top being 10 I think most would agree we should ignore everything outside of City and Chelsea.
I would have preferred a better start from Moyes united of course but thinking over properly exactly what the club is going through puts it right back into context.
Willian, van Ginkel, Schurrle, Schwarzer all improved their squad.
As for the comparison on cash, we might not have City level of cash, but the club (Woodward in particular) went to great lengths to convince those around the media that money wasnt an issue.
I just do not buy that Moyes didnt have enough time.
Mourinho didn't address his squad's main problems (midfield and upfront) adequately despite having all summer.
If you genuinely believe that we don't have to be careful with the money we spent, I'm unsure what more I can tell you. I think Moyes had enough time too - new managers come in and buy players all the time. I just disagreed with your arguments on Mourinho and Pellegrini.
You are right it is odd....and a little sickly if you want my honest opinion. Maybe I just don't buy into that brand of romanticism or idealism. I'm more of a realist, I look at what I see in front of me. I want Moyes to succeed, because he is our manager.....and he should be given time.....but not at the expense of progress.
The proof of that tends to be in the pudding. We were obviously pursuing players (although how many of those were the same ones the media decided we were after is questionable), and we weren't able to get them. It seems harsh to blame Moyes for that.
Next summer, for me, is a more appropriate time to start holding people accountable. They've now seen the depths of the problems in our squad, no longer masked by Fergie's ability and the stability of his managership, (and somewhat intensified by a badly-time injury crisis). They know that at least a couple of signings are now an absolute necessity, not just a possibility to mull over.
This summer everything was in a state of flux, so it's little wonder the transfer window ended up being a bit of a clusterfeck for us. But next summer there'll be no such excuses - the club has money coming out of its arse, there are targets out there, and what we need is very clear indeed. If we don't do a good deal better, then it'll be time to start pointing fingers.
Willian is utter crap and Schwarzer is a backup goalkeeper. He needed a goalscorer so they signed Eto who is getting past his best. The players above are squad players. He is ignoring one of the best players they have in Mata. I think Jose wanted this job, glad we didn't fall for his charm offensive by the way. Not entirely sure it was a good idea him going back there. We need players to come straight into the side, that is a lot harder proposition than signing squad players.
Where did i say we didnt? Im well aware we cant throw it around - but we arent as bad as we have been in past seasons. We had plenty to spend this summer and Moyes failed to make a decision. Thats my problem with the summer. Im glad we agree on having enough time - that was my main point.
I think you'll live to regret that. He's a good player and will show it. Schwarzer was an improvement on Turnbull. Eto'o wasnt a bad option to take - hasnt scored as many as i would have expected despite his age. Letting go of Lukaku was ridiculous and the dropping of Mata is bizarre.
There was plenty players in the summer we could have moved for and didnt - particularly in midfield. Woodward wasted far too much time on Fabregas.
Agree. I said it a week or so ago, it's the Liverpool mindset at the moment, the boom/bust...win it/4th/EL/build for next year.
Agree again, except the other way around. United have to instill an unwavering belief in himself that he knows what he's doing will bring them to the top. It might not always work, but first place has to be the aim every year.
Top6 games - all have played five games.
Liverpool 1H 4A;
Chelsea 2H 3A;
Arsenal 3H 2A & Man Utd 3H 2A;
Man City 4H 1A;
I should put Everton in too.
I think it's quite clear he knows what he's doing, despite the best efforts of some fans and posters to try to prove otherwise. It's a big learning curve for him, he's coming into a team that has had practically unrivalled success for the last 5-6 years in English football, a team that has shown itself to be extremely flawed at its base (midfield and defense) and he's constantly improving.
I also think it's the strongest PL in years. City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool are all better teams than they were last season, and that's something that shouldn't really be glossed over, because we won the league last season despite mostly playing poor football, and largely thanks to a manager who has had 25 years to perfect winning titles and not really having any serious title contenders.
Moyes wasn't my first choice, and I was pretty vocal about that, but he's clearly improving, the results are getting better (despite the injuries getting worse), he's getting youngsters playing well, he's getting previously uninspiring players playing good again, he's slowly but surely figuring out his best team and, most of all, he's coping with an ageing squad that is lacking quality in key areas. I think we'll get better as the season goes on, I don't think next summer will be anything close to the failure last summer was, I think we'll see a big upheavel of deadwood and arrival of good, fresh blood and we will definitely improve.
Still, a lot relies on getting top four, it'd be a sour turn of events if we did not get CL football, and potentially disastrous for him, so I pray that happens.
I also think it's the strongest PL in years. City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool are all better teams than they were last season, and that's something that shouldn't really be glossed over, because we won the league last season despite mostly playing poor football, and largely thanks to a manager who has had 25 years to perfect winning titles and not really having any serious title contenders.
Moyes wasn't my first choice, and I was pretty vocal about that, but he's clearly improving, the results are getting better (despite the injuries getting worse), he's getting youngsters playing well, he's getting previously uninspiring players playing good again, he's slowly but surely figuring out his best team and, most of all, he's coping with an ageing squad that is lacking quality in key areas. I think we'll get better as the season goes on, I don't think next summer will be anything close to the failure last summer was, I think we'll see a big upheavel of deadwood and arrival of good, fresh blood and we will definitely improve.
Still, a lot relies on getting top four, it'd be a sour turn of events if we did not get CL football, and potentially disastrous for him, so I pray that happens.
Lets hope thats a good sign, as it's easier to turn your home form around than your away form.
The points in Bold are key, and cover a key aspect that many of our fans simply do not see. When Moyes arrived here he had a six year contract, and probably a three year plan. He was quite vocal that he wanted to assess every player in the squad himself before he made any decisions (which is both logical and sensible). After all, he had just inherited the league champions - a far superior squad of players than the ones he had just left behind. How could he envisage that we would turn in some of the performances that we have done?
If you asked United fans in the summer (and also today) which areas needed improvement most would have said central midfield and left back. He tried to address both of those positions with very good players, but they didn't come off for us. The rest of the squad were there to fight for every position.
As you say above, he is now getting a firmer idea of what his best team is and some of our fringe players are improving their performance levels. The ones that haven't will go. The picture is now a lot clearer on how we will proceed, and I would expect that Moyes knows exactly who he wants to bring in to strengthen the team.
My opinion is that Moyes has seen us through an extremely tough period and handled himself well. Personally I'm firmly behind him and have belief that he will do very well for us.
I'm not picking and choosing anything. I'm posting the exact pissing stats as SSN listed them on screen.
Nail. On. Head.
My bad, didn't notice that in your post. Seems like SSN have picked a strange selection, then. To include chance creation (which is generally recognised as mostly pointless) but not assists, for example.
OK, so the season is halfway done. This is my verdict: disappointing in the PL, great in Europe.
Let's start with the bad.
The biggest problem for me is how dire our football has been. I didn't expect us to get as many points as we would under Fergie, so I can sort of forgive our modest amount of points. Since I didn't have the proper sports channels growing up in Norway, I didn't really start watching United every week before 2008. But I can tell you that from that year and up until now, I really can't remember a more dire United side. In terms of the football we're playing, I'd actually go as far as to say that we're overperforming in terms of points gathered. That's how bad we look out there.
No, this is not a "Moyes out" post, nor do I suggest that we looked like a Dortmund/Barca hybrid under Fergie either. But we were overall much more entertaining to watch, and much more dangerous going forward. We were also a lot less dependent on crosses and set pieces(as stats have proved). This, for me, is the most unforgiveable part about Moyes' efforts in the league so far. He did in fact inherit a team that walked the league last year, with the inclusion of Januzaj, Zaha, Fellaini and now Fletcher. Either you get the points, or you at least play good football. You can't fail in both aspects and expect the fans to remain silent.
Now over to the good!
Europe really has been Moyes' chance to redeem himself! Had it not been for the CL, then far more people would have joined the "Moyes out" group. Not only did we get one of the toughest groups in years, but we also managed to walk the damn thing, completely obliterating the second best team in the Bundesliga along the way. Moyes doesn't get nearly enough credit for this, which is really unfair. It's rather typical though, isn't it? When United smash a top team, people feel the need to play down the performance, claiming that we caught them on a bad day, and that it's nothing to celebrate. It's all total bullshit.
Credit where it's dure: well done in Europe so far, Moyes!
Let's start with the bad.
The biggest problem for me is how dire our football has been. I didn't expect us to get as many points as we would under Fergie, so I can sort of forgive our modest amount of points. Since I didn't have the proper sports channels growing up in Norway, I didn't really start watching United every week before 2008. But I can tell you that from that year and up until now, I really can't remember a more dire United side. In terms of the football we're playing, I'd actually go as far as to say that we're overperforming in terms of points gathered. That's how bad we look out there.
No, this is not a "Moyes out" post, nor do I suggest that we looked like a Dortmund/Barca hybrid under Fergie either. But we were overall much more entertaining to watch, and much more dangerous going forward. We were also a lot less dependent on crosses and set pieces(as stats have proved). This, for me, is the most unforgiveable part about Moyes' efforts in the league so far. He did in fact inherit a team that walked the league last year, with the inclusion of Januzaj, Zaha, Fellaini and now Fletcher. Either you get the points, or you at least play good football. You can't fail in both aspects and expect the fans to remain silent.
Now over to the good!
Europe really has been Moyes' chance to redeem himself! Had it not been for the CL, then far more people would have joined the "Moyes out" group. Not only did we get one of the toughest groups in years, but we also managed to walk the damn thing, completely obliterating the second best team in the Bundesliga along the way. Moyes doesn't get nearly enough credit for this, which is really unfair. It's rather typical though, isn't it? When United smash a top team, people feel the need to play down the performance, claiming that we caught them on a bad day, and that it's nothing to celebrate. It's all total bullshit.
Credit where it's dure: well done in Europe so far, Moyes!
Yes, he exceeded expectations in Europe so he deserves credit for that especially considering this is his first CL season.
I would add that his substitutions on occasions have also been sensible, game changing ones. Our last match against Norwich was a case in point.
Also, I feel there is a determination in the team to win and make up lost ground. Yes there is a will to win instilled within the club, but I sense Moyes has worked to preserve this and the players are hungry for results despite the poor performances. They say the hall mark of champions is to win whilst not playing well and that has certainly been the case in our last several victories. If only we could find a bit of that old panache that would strike fear into teams and develop a playing style that's actually enjoyable to watch.
there's been a lot of factors which have contributed to our mixed season so far.....
1. Fergie left Moyes a squad which in fact had been neglected for a few seasons - crying out for midfield reinforcements for years would Anderson have survived at Barca, Madrid or Munich as long as he has at United....not a chance. Players like Young, Nani, Anderson, Buttner have been inconsistent for years and he didn't do enough to bring in the top talent - after losing to Barca in the CL final in London he said he wanted to close the gap - he clearly didn't succeed for me - Fergie was such a legend he got that extra 25% out of more average players which helped us win the league at ease last year
2. Fergie left Moyes a shit storm with the Rooney fiasco - not sure how much this contributed but I'm sure Moyes time could have been better spent than answering question after question about Rooney all summer
3. Disaster of a transfer window - we've talked about this enough - the mistakes wont be made again
4. Some players have dropped their levels - maybe it was the magnificence of the man but many players have not been as effective....Rooney was honest enough to admit the players had let themselves down
5. Injuries, Injuries, Injuries - how many times this season have we been able to play our strongest side??
6. Other teams - with Fergie gone teams aren't as afraid of us - teams have come and attacked us and the pressure has got to our players - its been great to see the resilience of the players the last month though and they are starting to build character.
7. Moyes tactics and team selections havent been great at times... Smalling on for Rooney late on against Southampton was a shocking sub and he has been too cautious at times - I think he has to learn that its not in our philosophy to play negatively and he has been more attacking since then - it probably cost us the 3 points at Cardiff as well as we should have tried to kill the game
8. Scholes gone - feel like Rio should have gone and Giggs has really struggled when starting - three big characters in the squad who made more valuable contributions last season
9. Moyes has got Rooney back close to his best, has trusted in Jones, Smalling and Januzaj - I'm glad we have De Gea as a more settled goalkeeper and Moyes deserves some credit for trusting in Welbeck and Young who've been playing close to their best football for United lately
10. The fans......Despite the worst start in 25 or so years Moyes has ridden the storm and we are showing signs of recovery - Moyes has kept his head but the fans deserve serious credit as we have stuck by the manager - it hasn't put him under unnecessary pressure and the away fans especially have been incredible - it makes a difference
Overall I feel very positive and a strong finish to the season would be great....hopefully the injury situation clears up and we are able to bring in some key players in the next couple of transfer windows if and when possible
1. Fergie left Moyes a squad which in fact had been neglected for a few seasons - crying out for midfield reinforcements for years would Anderson have survived at Barca, Madrid or Munich as long as he has at United....not a chance. Players like Young, Nani, Anderson, Buttner have been inconsistent for years and he didn't do enough to bring in the top talent - after losing to Barca in the CL final in London he said he wanted to close the gap - he clearly didn't succeed for me - Fergie was such a legend he got that extra 25% out of more average players which helped us win the league at ease last year
2. Fergie left Moyes a shit storm with the Rooney fiasco - not sure how much this contributed but I'm sure Moyes time could have been better spent than answering question after question about Rooney all summer
3. Disaster of a transfer window - we've talked about this enough - the mistakes wont be made again
4. Some players have dropped their levels - maybe it was the magnificence of the man but many players have not been as effective....Rooney was honest enough to admit the players had let themselves down
5. Injuries, Injuries, Injuries - how many times this season have we been able to play our strongest side??
6. Other teams - with Fergie gone teams aren't as afraid of us - teams have come and attacked us and the pressure has got to our players - its been great to see the resilience of the players the last month though and they are starting to build character.
7. Moyes tactics and team selections havent been great at times... Smalling on for Rooney late on against Southampton was a shocking sub and he has been too cautious at times - I think he has to learn that its not in our philosophy to play negatively and he has been more attacking since then - it probably cost us the 3 points at Cardiff as well as we should have tried to kill the game
8. Scholes gone - feel like Rio should have gone and Giggs has really struggled when starting - three big characters in the squad who made more valuable contributions last season
9. Moyes has got Rooney back close to his best, has trusted in Jones, Smalling and Januzaj - I'm glad we have De Gea as a more settled goalkeeper and Moyes deserves some credit for trusting in Welbeck and Young who've been playing close to their best football for United lately
10. The fans......Despite the worst start in 25 or so years Moyes has ridden the storm and we are showing signs of recovery - Moyes has kept his head but the fans deserve serious credit as we have stuck by the manager - it hasn't put him under unnecessary pressure and the away fans especially have been incredible - it makes a difference
Overall I feel very positive and a strong finish to the season would be great....hopefully the injury situation clears up and we are able to bring in some key players in the next couple of transfer windows if and when possible
I wouldnt be so quick to praise Moyes on this. There is every chance Rooney is playing for a move - in fact, im almost certain thats what he's doing.
He has trusted Januzaj which he deserves credit for and i genuinely think he is handling him very well.
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