Moyes So Far!

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LonelyFire said:
I'm in complete disagreement with Nev. Idea that it would be more detrimental to change the wrong man after one year than give him 5 more is ridiculous.

Grossly naive article
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Except he thinks Moyes is the right man.

Excellent article by Neville.
 
I think our trouble is going to be that while there might be enough money for a galactico style player, we actually need 2 or 3 of them plus another couple of really solid squad players.


If we could indeed have paid out £80m plus wages for Bale, we'd be looking at a total expense of about £150m over the course of his first contract. I really can't imagine that would have left us with a lot let alone enough for two more top class players and replacements for the likes of Young and backup/competition for Evra.

We're going to have to be extremely savvy which I'm not confident in us being. Do Moyes and co have the ability to pick out some gems?

In today's market, with wages included I think we are talking about an outlay of somewhere near £300m to get this squad up to scratch.
 
Bojan11 said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...Moyes-time-hell-sucess-Manchester-United.html

Have to disagree with Neville. Obviously he wouldn't want Moyes sacked because that would mean Phil going too.

But if things carry on the way there are. With rubbish results and awful performances then we need to consider if he is the right man for the job.
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Disagree with Neville. I can't understand for life of me the logic of 'give someone time cause he'll be a success if you do so' without going into further arguments. It is not that every manager will become a success if you give him 4-6 years.

We had Sir Alex who ultimatelly became a great success after all those years of struggling, but on the other side we gave many years to other managers (like Atkinson) and in the end they completely failed. So, it works both ways and it is dependand on the manager.
 
Revan said:
Disagree with Neville. I can't understand for life of me the logic of 'give someone time cause he'll be a success if you do so' without going into further arguments. It is not that every manager will become a success if you give him 4-6 years.

We had Sir Alex who ultimatelly became a great success after all those years of struggling, but on the other side we gave many years to other managers (like Atkinson) and in the end they completely failed. So, it works both ways and it is dependand on the manager.
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His point is that its a value of United we shouldn't sacrifice easily and that even the right manager needs time to make his own stamp on the team. For me its impossible for a manager to fully build their own team in the less than two years, you need time to get rid of players from the previous regime who don't fit and to bring in players and a system of your own.
 
Smores said:
His point is that its a value of United we shouldn't sacrifice easily and that even the right manager needs time to make his own stamp on the team. For me its impossible for a manager to fully build their own team in the less than two years, you need time to get rid of players from the previous regime who don't fit and to bring in players and a system of your own.
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Agreed.
 
Smores said:
His point is that its a value of United we shouldn't sacrifice easily and that even the right manager needs time to make his own stamp on the team. For me its impossible for a manager to fully build their own team in the less than two years, you need time to get rid of players from the previous regime who don't fit and to bring in players and a system of your own.
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That's probably true but the manager can give signs that he's going into the right direction in much less time than two years. And that he has a plan of how the team would look (see other managers in other clubs).

Traditions are good as long as we benefit from them. If it's the other way around, probably we should sacrifice traditions. We don't want a bad manager for 5 years (just imagine the damage Woy would have done if he would have been allowed to stay at Liverpool for 5 years). It is too early to judge Moyes after only 25 games or so, but giving 4-5 years just for the sake of traditions and on blind faith would be the most retarded thing someone can do.
 
Smores said:
His point is that its a value of United we shouldn't sacrifice easily and that even the right manager needs time to make his own stamp on the team. For me its impossible for a manager to fully build their own team in the less than two years, you need time to get rid of players from the previous regime who don't fit and to bring in players and a system of your own.
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That is true and we certainly need some changes who ever the manager is. It's just highly unfortunate that the first player to be brought in by Moyes is Fellaini...
 
Pexbo said:
I think our trouble is going to be that while there might be enough money for a galactico style player, we actually need 2 or 3 of them plus another couple of really solid squad players.


If we could indeed have paid out £80m plus wages for Bale, we'd be looking at a total expense of about £150m over the course of his first contract. I really can't imagine that would have left us with a lot let alone enough for two more top class players and replacements for the likes of Young and backup/competition for Evra.

We're going to have to be extremely savvy which I'm not confident in us being. Do Moyes and co have the ability to pick out some gems?

In today's market, with wages included I think we are talking about an outlay of somewhere near £300m to get this squad up to scratch.
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I genuinely don't think this squad needs anywhere near that level of work. Now way will it take £300m to get us up to scratch.

Seriously had be got in two of the achievable midfield targets this summer (Thiago, Herrera, Strootman, Gustavo) I genuinely think there would be less doom and gloom about the squad than there is at the minute. It's not awful. But we missed an open goal this summer to strengthen the midfield. Fellaini has come in and hasn't strengthened it as he is behind Jones and Cleverley, to partner Carrick, and is behind them both (and Giggs) when Carrick is out. Next window we could have added a LB and a winger and trimmed a bloated squad of squad players who aren't contributing at all or to the level required.

That would have changed the look of things, boosted the players already here and wouldn't cost anywhere near £300m.

De Gea, Jones, Evans, Rafael, Carrick, Rooney, RvP, Januzaj is a good core to build on. Wholesale changes aren't necessary. Getting the existing players to perform to their level is what is needed imo, because the way we're playing at the moment isn't a reflection of the players performing to their full potential. For various reasons (namely confidence and belief imo) several players aren't performing to their level,either individually or as a team.
 
Amir said:
I don't think we were really unlucky against Newcastle, but it seems expectations are so much lower if we're looking at those games and talking about luck or bad luck. We created three or four good chances against Everton, but so did they. And since when not scoring from that amount of chances and losing 0-1 would be considered bad luck at United? We'd expect to create a lot more and if we miss ten chances and lose, THAT would be bad luck.

All those games could have ended with a different scoreline, of course. But the bottom line for all three was that we just weren't good enough.
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We were poor in them but we were poor in a number of games last season and the season before that where we looked devoid of ideas/energy (hence Noddles zombie thread of recent seasons), but we had that little bit of luck where we got the goal and managed to just about hang on, in the run over the last two weeks or so we have played poorly but we've also created some chances which another time would go in and change the game (didn't we hit the bar a fewtimes against Everton?). Likewise with their goals there's been that element of misfortune, with the Toon goal Evra's header on to their player couldn't have fallen any better for them.

As I said agree we've not been good enough and Moyes is culpable for some of that but for me some of it has been poor luck in that we've been missing two of our absolute key players from last season who certainly covered cracks in RVP/Carrick, squad players who have come in, in our weakest area have really underperformed and we've not had that fortune in front of goal. That's what I mean by comparing to the shaktar game, that wasn't a big improvement or anything, it was more similar than it was different too Everton/Toon but there's that slight change in how the luck went, they missed chances we took our only chance and it was the difference between 3points and 0.
 
LR7 said:
I genuinely don't think this squad needs anywhere near that level of work. Now way will it take £300m to get us up to scratch.

Seriously had be got in two of the achievable midfield targets this summer (Thiago, Herrera, Strootman, Gustavo) I genuinely think there would be less doom and gloom about the squad than there is at the minute. It's not awful. But we missed an open goal this summer to strengthen the midfield. Fellaini has come in and hasn't strengthened it as he is behind Jones and Cleverley, to partner Carrick, and is behind them both (and Giggs) when Carrick is out. Next window we could have added a LB and a winger and trimmed a bloated squad of squad players who aren't contributing at all or to the level required.

That would have changed the look of things, boosted the players already here and wouldn't cost anywhere near £300m.

De Gea, Jones, Evans, Rafael, Carrick, Rooney, RvP, Januzaj is a good core to build on. Wholesale changes aren't necessary. Getting the existing players to perform to their level is what is needed imo, because the way we're playing at the moment isn't a reflection of the players performing to their full potential. For various reasons (namely confidence and belief imo) several players aren't performing to their level,either individually or as a team.
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We dont have quality specialist backups to some key positions. Thats where we are lacking. LB and RB, we need quality backups. Out of our wide players right now I only really like Januzaj. Nani has been here long enough to have developed some consistency but just hasn't. Young is simply awful, Valencia is a one trick pony. I dont think Wellbeck scores consistently and we need more than Giggs as a b/u for cm or out wide. As it is Giggs has one great game and then 3-4 average or poor ones. I think we need a LB,RB a decent winger, another striker and 2 CM's. And a clear out.
 
Stack said:
We dont have quality specialist backups to some key positions. Thats where we are lacking. LB and RB, we need quality backups. Out of our wide players right now I only really like Januzaj. Nani has been here long enough to have developed some consistency but just hasn't. Young is simply awful, Valencia is a one trick pony. I dont think Wellbeck scores consistently and we need more than Giggs as a b/u for cm or out wide. As it is Giggs has one great game and then 3-4 average or poor ones. I think we need a LB,RB a decent winger, another striker and 2 CM's. And a clear out.
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I'd argue that we need actually players to go straight into the first team rather than more backups. I said in my post two CMs, a winger and LB.

I know this is a divisive topic and I'm not suggesting he should be first choice but imo Fabio is more than adequate fullback cover (both spots) and he'd get enough games to keep him satisfied when Rafael/Evra(or new LB) are injured/rested.

The other players you mentioned I didn't list in the core players that the first team should be built around. Some of them you listed are adequate squad players, whilst others are fringe players that need moving on, for their careers and the good of the club going forward. They don't all need directly replacing as the squad is too bloated as it is so I really don't see any necessary changes costing close to £300m
 
Amir said:
That is true and we certainly need some changes who ever the manager is. It's just highly unfortunate that the first player to be brought in by Moyes is Fellaini...
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Aye with you there. I have hope he'll become a useful specialist role within our squad but he's not the player to get the fans on your side. I'm confident we'll go large in January for that reason.
 
Neville's article is a bit silly, to be honest. It wouldn't look out of place on RAWK. It smacks of that moral high-ground mentality that is nothing less than arrogant, making his article hard to take seriously. He loves the club more than anyone, does Gary, but he's completely blinded by this "United way" bullshit to actually see things how they are. He does make good points, like the way in which, in theory, Moyes should be given ample time. Yet, he's basing this faith that "Moyes will eventually be fantastic" on nothing more than club bias and blind faith.
 
Kag said:
Neville's article is a bit silly, to be honest. It wouldn't look out of place on RAWK. It smacks of that moral high-ground mentality that is nothing less than arrogant, making his article hard to take seriously. He loves the club more than anyone, does Gary, but he's completely blinded by this "United way" bullshit to actually see things how they are. He does make good points, like the way in which, in theory, Moyes should be given ample time. Yet, he's basing this faith that "Moyes will eventually be fantastic" on nothing more than club bias and blind faith.
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Agreed. Just because you give managers time it doesn't mean they will win things, and I'm sick of people thinking this way. Wenger hasn't won anything for 8 years has he? Especially when our one in question is one that hasn't won anything major. There's no guarantees in football but Neville seems to be saying that Moyes is a guaranteed success if we stick with him, which is based on nothing.
 
Galactic said:
He was indirectly asked about it by the press. He could not possibly say something like "no comment" to it, or it might be seen as he did not try hard enough or even seen as getting nowhere near getting them (which is not something we associate united with). Plus, many still question his ambition on getting world class players so he probably needed to quash it. And he also needed to quash another direct suggestion that the owners are not willing to give him enough spending money.
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Many managers out there are asked questions like that. I've not heard many give this much attention to nearly getting a player. And as you say he may have done it to say 'look we're after top players'...but that could be so far from the truth too.
 
Kag said:
Neville's article is a bit silly, to be honest. It wouldn't look out of place on RAWK. It smacks of that moral high-ground mentality that is nothing less than arrogant, making his article hard to take seriously. He loves the club more than anyone, does Gary, but he's completely blinded by this "United way" bullshit to actually see things how they are. He does make good points, like the way in which, in theory, Moyes should be given ample time. Yet, he's basing this faith that "Moyes will eventually be fantastic" on nothing more than club bias and blind faith.
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Agreed. Protect the united way at cost of having potentially the wrong man? Nonsense. Give him time(if performances show improvement) but 5 years regardless of what happens? Totally naive.
 
I sort of agree with Neville's point broadly speaking but he hasn't bothered to back it up at all or do much more than resort to meaningless platitudes and soundbites.
 
Ash_G said:
We were poor in them but we were poor in a number of games last season and the season before that where we looked devoid of ideas/energy (hence Noddles zombie thread of recent seasons), but we had that little bit of luck where we got the goal and managed to just about hang on, in the run over the last two weeks or so we have played poorly but we've also created some chances which another time would go in and change the game (didn't we hit the bar a fewtimes against Everton?). Likewise with their goals there's been that element of misfortune, with the Toon goal Evra's header on to their player couldn't have fallen any better for them.

As I said agree we've not been good enough and Moyes is culpable for some of that but for me some of it has been poor luck in that we've been missing two of our absolute key players from last season who certainly covered cracks in RVP/Carrick, squad players who have come in, in our weakest area have really underperformed and we've not had that fortune in front of goal. That's what I mean by comparing to the shaktar game, that wasn't a big improvement or anything, it was more similar than it was different too Everton/Toon but there's that slight change in how the luck went, they missed chances we took our only chance and it was the difference between 3points and 0.
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We have been a little unlucky with injuries to key players, but I honestly think talking about luck is papering over the cracks. We shouldn't be talking about matches like the last three in terms of luck. One match, OK, it happens. But three in a row in which we look pretty much the same? It's just not good enough. There should have been a reaction, should have been an improvement, something, and to me it shows we're not suffering from bad luck. We're just mediocre. And we shouldn't be that bad even without a couple of big players. Even against Everton, one of the two shots that hit the post/bar was deflected. Had it been a goal, it would have been a big piece of luck. Again this talk about luck, luck, luck. It's just not good enough.

Last season was not a classic, but with the goals we conceded in the first half of the season, we needed to score plenty in order to win matches and we did that. We're not doing that now because we're not creating. We don't seem capable, in the league, of the sort of performances that had us going 2-0 up at Chelsea and City for instance, or completely controlling the Arsenal game last season (even though we also won this season). Last season, we weren't brilliant, but there were plenty of good moments. This season, we're just not good.
 
Amir said:
We have been a little unlucky with injuries to key players, but I honestly think talking about luck is papering over the cracks. We shouldn't be talking about matches like the last three in terms of luck. One match, OK, it happens. But three in a row in which we look pretty much the same? It's just not good enough. There should have been a reaction, should have been an improvement, something, and to me it shows we're not suffering from bad luck. We're just mediocre. And we shouldn't be that bad even without a couple of big players. Even against Everton, one of the two shots that hit the post/bar was deflected. Had it been a goal, it would have been a big piece of luck. Again this talk about luck, luck, luck. It's just not good enough.

Last season was not a classic, but with the goals we conceded in the first half of the season, we needed to score plenty in order to win matches and we did that. We're not doing that now because we're not creating. We don't seem capable, in the league, of the sort of performances that had us going 2-0 up at Chelsea and City for instance, or completely controlling the Arsenal game last season (even though we also won this season). Last season, we weren't brilliant, but there were plenty of good moments. This season, we're just not good.
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I agree there are cracks I just think that whilst last season/season before we largely got away with them, this season we've not had the same luck and so they've been thoroghly exposed. Last season we kept Carrick fit the whole time and we had RVP who as I said was scoring ruthlessly and creating goals out of nothing. How many threads were there talking about how we're not creating? A lot from what I can remember but the form of RVP and of Carrick meant we could get by. This season both started off form, by all accounts neither have been fully fit, Carrick has been carrying the achilles injury for a while and added to that players who have needed to be relied on Clev/Fellaini have massively underperformed so the cracks are really noticable and added to that we've had some poor look imo in terms of how chances have gone these last couple of games.

Carrick not being at his best earlier on in the season obviously didn't help but up to the Arsenal game it really wasn't so bad in terms of results, with his absence though we've lost pretty much everything in the middle. There's no one who can consistently shield the defence, start moves, set the tempo. That's been an issue in all the games since his absence and the reason we can't even start comebacks. A feature of pretty much all our comebacks over recent years and probably before that is a midfielder, first Scholes, more recently Carrick who can just keep things ticking, keep us getting in to good areas. We always knew loosing him would be a massice issue, but loosing him at the same time as loosing our key striker and their respective repacements Fellaini/Clev, kagawa/welbeck not playing well, a bigger issue with the former two, has caused massive issues. And that for me does entail some poor luck in terms of so many issues hitting at the same time.

Moyes has to take some blame for that in terms of motivating players, getting buisness done in the summer etc, but you expect those players to be doing better than they are, you can't level it just at the manager.
 
I know I will get slaughtered for this, but what the hell are we doing in training? As it stands RvP, Carrick, Fellaini, Vidic, Smalling, Kagawa & Hernandez are all out injured. That's fecking incredible and can't all come down to bad luck. I know we've had rough patches over the last few years, mainly in defence, too, but that's taking it to a new level.
 
It's never just about the manager, but you know what? It doesn't matter. It has never mattered in football or in sports because the manager is the head of the system and if the system isn't doing well, eventually he will pay the price.

For all our problems, we should be doing better. Losing Carrick was a blow, but losing 27.5m for a player who should be able to take his place and isn't is also a blow. And it isn't bad luck. Losing Van Persie is a blow, but gaining Rooney in his form this season should partly compensated for it. It hasn't. It isn't bad luck. The team has just not been functioning. It's not greater than the some of its parts, which would have been nice to see. It's not even close to being as good as the sum of it's parts. Even the spare parts.

I think we've made the wrong appointment, but I know we're not going to replace the manager. And I have to say my expectations for the rest of the season our low: No title battle, not even CL football. I just want this team to take shape, to start playing good stuff and to show promise ahead of next season and beyond. Anything else, I would consider an added bonus.
 
kouroux said:
That makes little sense as SAF's retirement and Moyes' appointment were well known in advance, how did he almost sign Ronaldo then if the retirement made him decide to stay put ?
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Because perhaps Ronaldo was very, very close to signing before the summer (his "I'm sad" comments came halfway through last season, after all) when he didn't know that Fergie was retiring. After all, apparently only a handful of people knew Fergie was retiring before he announced it - even his players didn't know. So Ronaldo might have got very close during the season. Then, when Fergie retired, he started to have second thoughts before eventually deciding in the summer that he would stay at Real Madrid. That would still very much be counted as us "almost" signing him - it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the player chose to go elsewhere on the final day, just that they were close to joining and then didn't.
 
pocco said:
Why are people complaining about us doing things 'the united way'? We've been proud of this for years, we've laughed at other clubs for doing what people now want us to do. I just don't get how people are so quick to want us to disregard our traditions.
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This.

The idea that we should get rid of him because that's what the other clubs would do is laughable.

Gary Neville is spot on. To question his position at the club a few months into the job is an insult to the club and for me an insult to Sir Alex.
 
Let's see if you kick on this time.

It was a decent display but the standard/attitude of the opposition was so poor it's difficult to gain much from it. You've won big games before and gone on to do nothing.

We'll see if a corner has been turned. One thing you have to say is that there was a positivity and a desire to win the game at all costs.
 
Absolutely nothing to complain about and really looked like a totally different team - credit to the manager for that, you never know after a bad run like that. But we've had the odd good performance this season. It's about being able to repeat it regularly and Moyes would be the first to say it.
 
I hope we start playing that back four more consistently, no need for the constant rotation.
 
He actually tweaked our formation a bit by dropping Rooney almost down into a third midfielder, and releasing Valencia and Januzaj further forward.

It was more of a 4-3-3 today. Also, the attacking impetus was great to see. When we got the first and second, we didn't give in but sought to kill the game off.

Positives, but difficult to conclude with anything due to Villa being wank.
 
Far more movement and passing from the team today. I really hope that was planned, rather then just pot luck.
 
Positive stuff. Still 6 points off 4th, Moyes needs to string a run of wins together now.
 
Marvellous result, and some really good play in that.

Let's not forget a lot of people were sh!tting themselves at our huge injury list and lack of form, yet we've swept a team away on their own pitch.

Need to take this forward now, as the games come thick and fast. Need a run, and then the league table can look very different very quickly in this period.
 
Playing Rooney deeper down as a midfielder was the difference. Our 433 set up gave us more possession and better built ups. Our midfield is still weak but with Carrick back and one or two addition we will be fine.

In defense we where very good. Evans and Jones was solid and gave away almost nothing.

Excellent job from Moyes!


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Sandikan said:
Marvellous result, and some really good play in that.

Let's not forget a lot of people were sh!tting themselves at our huge injury list and lack of form, yet we've swept a team away on their own pitch.

Need to take this forward now, as the games come thick and fast. Need a run, and then the league table can look very different very quickly in this period.
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Sorry about not getting as excited beating Aston Villa, who are just dreadful.
 
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