Moyes So Far!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Good good. Hopefully now we can get good results in EPL too.

Didn't get the inclusion of Young and Buttner, but otherwise it was a fine lineup. The subs were good, we were winning and Robin come one, that's something I want to see more.

Anyway, I didn't expect that we'll get 14 points on this group, so really happy. Job well done!
 
Getting giggs off for cleverley was what won us the game.

Fair play to moyes for recognising that.
 
He gets Europe, which is strange considering his lack of experience and it's where I expected him to struggle. Subs were spot on tonight and corrected the problems, though I wonder why he thought Young and Buttner should have started a game where he's under pressure.
 
Read more at http://swol.co/manchester-united-news-david-moyes-discusses-recent-form-ahead-of-champions-league/31844?#uCwickakeEmIrsdX.99

I don't like the first bit in bold, he should be saying we aim to finish unbeaten, not hopefully, that is too negative.

The second bit is, however, more positive, he's the boss & the buck stops with him, it is his job to motivate the players

Whilst he wants to express that he carries ultimate responsibility for events there is the urge to get those around him tot cut him some slack, that can lead to the message becoming confused i think.

They're still lacking the intensity of even his old Everton team but he did appear to get a reaction out of the team in that second half. Moyes' post match interview was honest yet a positive tilt where possible.
 
We still lack fluency and our creativity is shit but tonight a saw players who gave 100% and was trying to win. Two new mf is a must as everybody knows. Moyes can stay another game ;-) but please sack his first assistant, some have to be the victim of this mess.

#Phelancomeback


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
He gets Europe, which is strange considering his lack of experience and it's where I expected him to struggle. Subs were spot on tonight and corrected the problems, though I wonder why he thought Young and Buttner should have started a game where he's under pressure.

I never thought Moyes would be a cup manager, but so far he's been very Benitez-esque, dodgy in the league where you need to try to win, yet impeccable in the CL and other cups. :confused:
 
It's a fact. People getting their knickers in a twist about a reserve full back not being involved is fecking stupid. If he was that good he'd be getting games.

That's not really true though. We don't know what's going on. Sometimes good players arent fancied by certain managers. Just how it goes.
 
That's not really true though. We don't know what's going on. Sometimes good players arent fancied by certain managers. Just how it goes.
Fergie didn't seem to think a huge deal of him either. Either way there's a reason for it. It isn't like Moyes hasn't given opportunities to just about every player in the squad.
 
Fergie didn't seem to think a huge deal of him either. Either way there's a reason for it. It isn't like Moyes hasn't given opportunities to just about every player in the squad.

Are you sure? He started him in the CL final against Barca

I dont think he has given opportunities in Fabio's case. My issue is we're not resting Evra and it shows in his performances. It just really makes me wonder why he's not playing. Like I said I don't know what's going on but it seems like we've accepted Buttner isnt good enough to rotate with Evra and it's not like Fabio has done poorly when he's been on the pitch.
 
He gets Europe, which is strange considering his lack of experience and it's where I expected him to struggle.

I don't know. Just becauser it's a European competition doesn't mean you suddenly have to come up with a whole new game plan. Guardiola and Di Matteo actually won it on their first seasons as CL coaches. I'd rather see what Moyes has to offer vs better teams, against which we will have to adapt.
 
I still cant see what he is trying to do with this team. What's the plan? Still so painfully slow.

I sort of agree with this, but at the same time it's hardly fair to expect to see a manager's 'plan' when both of last season's best and most important players (Carrick and RVP) aren't able to start. Along with our most important defender in Vidic. Yes, our form was not dominant when Carrick was playing, but we'd gone a long run without losing and had beaten Arsenal. This side -

DDG​
Rafael Evans Vidic Evra​
Carrick Jones​
Nani Rooney Januzaj​
RVP​
is always going to make the manager's job easier. Carrick in particular. In terms of replaceability in our squad he's worth four or five of the others put together.​
Again, I'm not saying that I think Moyes has shown adequate signs of having a plan for this team. Personally I don't think he's recovered from failing to successfully make the obvious move in the summer and recruit a couple of top-class midfielders.​
But right now, with key players missing, would be a difficult time to demonstrate that 'plan' even if he had one.​

EDIT: Swapped Jones in for Cleverley.
 
I think Jones has done enough to get in that side ahead of Cleverley

Kagawa is a tough one, I'm still convinced that he can be an asset starting from a nominal wide position and cutting inside and interchanging with Rooney. With none of the wingers bar Januzaj really staking a firm claim I'd be tempted to stick Januzaj on the right and try and give Kagawa some new instructions to roam more into central positions.
 
I think Jones has done enough to get in that side ahead of Cleverley.

Yep, probably true. In fact, I'm going to edit it.

As for Kagawa, my personal opinion is and has been for a while that he should be given the central position and that Rooney can play a free role (no fixed position at all) without losing any effectiveness. Meanwhile, Evra already provides plenty of width the way he currently plays. But I didn't want to get into all that again here.
 
The tempo has been quite slow in most of our CL games. PL teams tend to come at us, like Shaktar did for a half, and Moyes doesn't have the tactical nous or the personnel to deal with it.

Why don't you give us a tactical breakdown of what we should be doing when we're being pressed all over the pitch? Since you seem to think you know better. Our players have displayed for years that they crumble when pressed hard on the ball all over the pitch.
 
As for Kagawa, my personal opinion is and has been for a while that he should be given the central position and that Rooney can play a free role (no fixed position at all) without losing any effectiveness. Meanwhile, Evra already provides plenty of width the way he currently plays. But I didn't want to get into all that again here.


I guess what we are suggesting isn't too different, because I guess with your suggestion Rooney would be roaming and there would still be interchanging between him and Kagawa which is my view also.

Of the two though, if there had to be one who spent more time in central areas it would be Rooney for me because I just think he offers more than Kagawa currently. But yeah, I would like to see them both playing with more freedom in central areas.
 
Why don't you give us a tactical breakdown of what we should be doing when we're being pressed all over the pitch? Since you seem to think you know better. Our players have displayed for years that they crumble when pressed hard on the ball all over the pitch.

Just to throw my two cents in, because I think that's a really interesting question (sorry for interjecting if you only wanted to hear from R'sUL), I'd point to three things:

1. The way we play off the ball has a huge impact on the way we are able to play on it. For years we have employed an outdated 'backing off absorbing pressure' style of defending which means we only ever win the ball back on the edge of our box. As a result there are no options for the man who finds himself on the ball, and pressure results in panicked clearances or rushed passes, and the team struggles to regain shape and composure. We need to catch up with the other top European teams in terms of pressing the ball as a unit and with the genuine intent to make a tackle if you can get close enough to do so. We absolutely have the personnel for that - players like Rooney, Kagawa, Welbeck, Jones, Evans, Hernandez, Valencia etc all love to defend positively, so I don't think it's much of a leap to assume that it's down to coaching/strategy that we defend so negatively. To play a confident passing game under pressure you need to have lots of the ball and you need to be able to win it back quickly and aggressively enough to maintain the required tempo and shape.

2. An attitude adjustment. I think the ability of a lot of our players on the ball and under pressure is vastly underrated because of the way we have played as a strategic unit at time over the last few seasons. The idea that Carrick, in particular, is poor under pressure is absurd. Watch highlight reels of last season and again and again and again you see him effortlessly escape, with a pass or a little shuffle, from three or four players all coming at him from different directions. The problem is that we seem to have developed a coached-in inferiority complex. The likes of Southampton, Swansea, Everton etc do not have better players than us. That's a fact. And yet because of the attitude instilled into them - that they can keep the ball under pressure and against better teams, that they are a unit worth far more than the sum of their parts, and that 'playing it safe' is not, the way the game is today, actually a 'safe' tactic if you want to win games. Very technically capable players in our side play it far too safe. We are too willing to turn and pass backwards as soon as the opposition get anywhere near them. We are too willing to play it long from the back just because a short option doesn't present itself immediately. And the players off the ball do not show that constant, tireless desire to be available for the ball at all times which is on show at Southampton and their ilk, not just the likes of Barca and Bayern. If a teammate is forced to hoof it long, or to resignedly turn and slog it back to de Gea unnecessarily, those around him are as much at fault as he is, if not more. The players need a combination of more confidence in their own ability on the ball (individually and as a team) and more discipline about putting in the work that a fast, effective passing game needs.

3. Another top midfielder. I've talked about Carrick being good under pressure despite what some seem determined to think, but he simply can't keep doing it on his own, and we've seen the huge problems we have when he's injured. Cleverley, to be fair to him, is very good on the ball under pressure. It's probably the strongest part of his game. But a team like United really shouldn't have to trade in all the things he should be better at just to get that. In a way, the first two points are much more fundamental than this one, but probably can't be effectively instituted until we get that top midfielder. Possibly until we get two, because even a Fabregas-type is going to struggle without the confidence in his Busquets/Alonso/Carrick/Schweinsteiger 'out ball' which allows him to take his time on the ball even with players bearing down on him.

tl;dr:
1: Aggressive team pressing off the ball.
2: Confidence in our ability to play under pressure, and discipline putting in the work to make it possible.
3: One (or, ideally, two) top midfielders.
 
I guess what we are suggesting isn't too different, because I guess with your suggestion Rooney would be roaming and there would still be interchanging between him and Kagawa which is my view also.

Yep, basically two ways of describing the same thing.
 
I agree with the second and third points, but unfortunately they just weren't options today.

With regards to the first point, I think the decision to defend deep has probably come about for two reasons: 1) We have defenders in the centre that aren't the quickest. 2) We like to counter attack by stretching teams.

The defenders that I'm talking about are Vidic and Rio. Obviously they have to play, but they can be exploited by players with pace that have space to run into in behind them. They're great at defending what is in front of them, but they no longer have great recovery times.

Fixing no.3 on your list will probably help in this matter. Having players like Jones and Evans at CB will probably allow us to defend a bit higher up. I think this is key, along with good midfielders, to us adopting a better pressing game and a better possession game.

I can't wait to see Jones back in defence with a proper midfield ahead of him. This stint in midfield will hopefully turn him into an even better CB.
 
Two good posts from Brightonian and Pocco.

I agree with most of it and just want to add that Vidic has to be replaced if we are going to change our style and press all over the pitch. Another thing is D de Gea, he needs more confidence so he can act as a fifth defender outside his box when necessary.

I'm not sure Moyes has the knowledge to transform our style but let's hope he's up to date. If we want to compete with the best we need to adapt to the modern game and change our set up and tactic. Defend deep with no press and 442/4411 is suicide in today's football.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Encouraging signs. December is the ideal month for him to get some momentum with with Villa, West Ham, Hull, and Norwich ahead (albeit mostly away). If he can win all four, we should in 4th or very near heading into the Spurs fixture on New Years Day.
 
Encouraging signs. December is the ideal month for him to get some momentum with with Villa, West Ham, Hull, and Norwich ahead (albeit mostly away). If he can win all four, we should in 4th or very near heading into the Spurs fixture on New Years Day.


Well the 2nd 45 was encouraging indeed. Delightful to see Cleverley even coming in and actually contributing something for a change. You'd normally look at these fixtures and have a banker of 10/12 - allowing a tricky fixture against Villa away. I would snap someone's hand off for that right now but lets get all optimistic and shout for 12 shall we.
 
I have a gut feeling if things didn't pick up, Fergie will personally made that decision to kick him out.

He is ruthless after all and have no problem shipping out players he deemed surplus in the pass, one can only hope he cut his loses fast. It'll make things alot easier
 
Well the 2nd 45 was encouraging indeed. Delightful to see Cleverley even coming in and actually contributing something for a change. You'd normally look at these fixtures and have a banker of 10/12 - allowing a tricky fixture against Villa away. I would snap someone's hand off for that right now but lets get all optimistic and shout for 12 shall we.


I think we have to believe we can get all 12 and then actually go out and get them. Anything less would be exacerbating a culture of mediocrity worthy of a mid table club.
 
Why don't you give us a tactical breakdown of what we should be doing when we're being pressed all over the pitch? Since you seem to think you know better. Our players have displayed for years that they crumble when pressed hard on the ball all over the pitch.

This. The conundrum is why we've never dealt with it after all these years.
 
Two good posts from Brightonian and Pocco.

I agree with most of it and just want to add that Vidic has to be replaced if we are going to change our style and press all over the pitch. Another thing is D de Gea, he needs more confidence so he can act as a fifth defender outside his box when necessary.

I'm not sure Moyes has the knowledge to transform our style but let's hope he's up to date. If we want to compete with the best we need to adapt to the modern game and change our set up and tactic. Defend deep with no press and 442/4411 is suicide in today's football.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Here's another thing that puzzles me about Moyes. Before he started at OT, I read an article explaining how Moyes' liked the way Bayern dominated midfield and that he wants to place an emphasis on winning the midfield battle. Maybe he doesn't see any sort of fix with the current crop and so is trying to get a higher quality CM in before trying out his ideas. The english press is weird too. The elephant in the room seems to be asking Moyes how he plans to improve the team. Moyes can answer that question without answering that question directly.

If Moyes cant transform our style then I'm really worried because it's all there waiting to be changed.
 
Are you sure? He started him in the CL final against Barca

I dont think he has given opportunities in Fabio's case. My issue is we're not resting Evra and it shows in his performances. It just really makes me wonder why he's not playing. Like I said I don't know what's going on but it seems like we've accepted Buttner isnt good enough to rotate with Evra and it's not like Fabio has done poorly when he's been on the pitch.
Then sent him on loan and bought another full back. He didn't exactly pull up any trees on loan either. People are still clinging to the fact he played in a Champions League final. Truth is it was because his brother had been injured, Fergie had fallen out with Brown and we had no other options. How often did he play the following season?

You're right Fabio hasn't been given many chances. Virtually the only outfield player who hasn't. It makes me doubt he's as good as his fan club thinks. Just because Rafael has matured into a very good player doesn't meen Fabio has or will.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.