Which team?
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Which team?
Actually during Moyes first day at United when he brought a camera with him, I already felt we have got the wrong man.
Yes, cameras are an amazing indication of whether or not one is ready to coach at the top level.
Also, voice recorders and dvr's.
Also, voice recorders and dvr's.
Good stuff and really enjoy watching those two talk about football. Nice to finally see pundits who actually understand the game instead of spouting shit from their ass.
All good analysis, even Carragher made a lot of sense, the only issue is his accent, have Sky considered giving him subtitles?
Or speech therapy perhaps.
A lot of what they're saying is right but I think they're underestimating how much of that belief that we'd score and the whole throwing the kitchen sink thing came from Fergie. Yes it's the same group of players so in theory Moyes should be able to instil the same mentality but the players will naturally lose a bit of that belief without SAF and it'll take some time to get it back.
Sorry, I just don't see it in Moyes to ever get it back.
I'll still support the team 100% when they play, but I really hope we make the change ASAP!
Sorry, I just don't see it in Moyes to ever get it back.
I'll still support the team 100% when they play, but I really hope we make the change ASAP!
I think it's fair to say we're never going to have that almost cult like leader figure again. Perhaps the sheer force of will from the touch line isn't ever going to be the same but it's not to say Moyes can't turn it round and get us winning. Fair enough, if not, get rid but I still think it's too early to make that judgement. His first transfer window was a fecking shambles but he was hardly helped by our Amelia Earhart impersonator chairman. He's done himself no favours gutting the coaching staff on the face of it but we don't know what went on behind the scenes, keeping the old staff might have caused problems too. I think he definitely needs more time to get out of the inevitable post Fergie dip. If he pulls us to a top 4 finish we can see where he goes from there. I think if we manage to miss out on the Champion's League the owners might call it a day there.
Fair enough if he pulls a top 4, but at the moment I just can't see it, and it'd be less costly to United to fire him than a season outside the CL.
That is under the assumption that replacing him comes with a guarantee of a finish in top four, which sadly it doesn't.
Sorry, I just don't see it in Moyes to ever get it back.
I'll still support the team 100% when they play, but I really hope we make the change ASAP!
I think you also need to remember I think Fergie was rare in that sense too. Not many managers would risk being battered to go hell for leather for the win.
Even if we miss out on CL he might not be let go - Fergie and Charlton will oppose it after just one year. Also never say never about cult figures! We've had 2 already one might be around the corner =p.
If Sir Alex comes back this weekend, I'd wager we'd finish in the top 2 at least, the difference is that big. With Moyes I'm now expecting 7th.
While I accept that Sir Alex is the best thing to have happened to United ever, I'm inclined to think the Glazers may have something to say about a season out of the CL.
I am still confident of top 4 finish. Come 31st December, we will be closer to top 4 and closer to leader as well than we are currently and every team would have played each other once. Granted had we not lost points against West Brom, Saints, Cardiff, Newcastle, Everton (missed on around 10 points), we would have been again challenging for title, but fortunately for us, City and Chelsea haven't exactly run away with it. I would have been more concerned had it been City or Chelsea in Arsenal's position. As we have seen with Arsenal previously and Chelsea last season, top teams with good players can make up in 2nd half of season when teams with smaller squads begin to fade.
Moyes, as I have always believed is a good manager. It has been a steep learning curve from him and more setbacks than he could have expected, but I think it will only help him in long term. Worse comes to worse, we don't finish top 4, still I don't think we will fire him. We shouldn't.
Moyes, as I have always believed is a good manager. It has been a steep learning curve from him and more setbacks than he could have expected, but I think it will only help him in long term. Worse comes to worse, we don't finish top 4, still I don't think we will fire him. We shouldn't.
Will any other top club take a season out of the CL as acceptable? I really don't see where blind faith is going to take us. The likes of Mourinho, Ancelotti have all made a habit of hitting the ground running at new clubs.
I'm dont usually pay to much attention to stats as they are usually rubbish and don't give a true reflection, however the forward passing stat is a worry. It's something most fans have noticed, it really is terrible.
Whether we should or shouldn't is a different question though. I am in agreement at that stage unless Moyes has shown something to justify staying, he needs to go. The point I'm making is I don't think he will get sacked, due to SAF and Bibby.
I hope you're wrong, perhaps the Glazers will turn out to be our best hope to right the wrong if it happened.
Probably not. But then again clubs like Chelsea or Madrid aren't exactly shining examples when you consider both have under performed in recent years despite having spent more than us. You could also argue Chelsea would have been in a much stronger position right now if they did not sack Mourinho/Ancelotti. And how many managers (and compensation packages) do they go through before finally finding the right one? I'd rather not take part in that circus.
At the moment, the two most consistent teams in the league are the ones who stood by their managers despite hard times.
Great video but that forward passing stat is horrendous. I said in another post we're not even playing as good as relegation candidates and that stat just really highlights how bad this current side is at the moment... I guarantee you'd see more better ball retention from some half decent sunday teams.
If you're referring to Arsenal, they stuck by a mananger whose had a previous record of success and has experience of managing some of the greatest players to have graced the league and in europe. A world-reknowned manager.. that can't be said about Moyes who has zero track record of success.
They say there's no belief or confidence in the side. That's obvious. But surely that's down to Moyes? Carragher starts down that road around 6 minutes when he starts talking about Moyes' habits. I don't care what Gary has to say about Moyes learning about Man Utd, the basic fact is he's a cautious manager who started off very cautiously. The result of that has been a safety first approach seeping through the side. The defeats at Anfield and Wastelands were tell-tale signs and those early warnings have proven right.
No belief they say? Of course if the manager says we lack world class players (link) and keeps getting in excuses about tough starts, transition etc. its going to come across as him not believing in the squad. Its only natural that the squad, being questioned by their manager in this way, would start to question themselves too. That's clear in how they're playing. They look scared, they look uninspired and Moyes hasn't shown any signs that he has the motivational skills to turn that around.
It is not blind faith, it is based on my overall impression of Moyes, the time since I am watching him in PL. I don't care what other clubs do and hopefully those who take decisions at our club won't go by what others do. Moyes is a good manager and he needs to be given at least 2 years to setup his own team.
I keep reading this zero track record of success and I think its a convenient spin on Moyes achievements. If people are honest his efforts in making Everton so competative over the last decade on a nothing budget is pretty impressive. there was a level of consistency of Everton punching above their weight year after year. The fact he never won a trophy is a convenient and lazy stick to beat him with and ignore what he was actually able to achieve in such a limited situation.
Wenger had a brief burst of success in France before getting the Arsenal job, he wasnt world renowned when he got the job for those of us who remember his appointment.
This. It's not even just about naming managers or coaches that we think are better than Moyes. Flavour of the month Martinez, for example, could struggle hugely with the United job. Even more experienced names could crumble under the pressure.
And the best team in Europe is one who a couple of years back appointed Klinsmann, realised they got it wrong and sacked him after six months or so.
Patience is a virtue as long as it's not blind. We need to see something changing for the better in order to keep Moyes. The results, the football, team coherence, something. It's not as if any manager would succeed as long as you give him time.
Moyes has done brilliantly at Everton, and I have the fact people are rewriting history just to show how unworthy he is. Having said that, his new role is very much uncharted water for him. He could succeed, but he could also fail.
As for Wenger, by this time after his appointment at Arsenal he had signed, among others, a young Vieira and had made a clear and positive impact on Arsenal's football. All this, despite arriving after the start of the season. Let's not go there, for Moyes's sake!
Klinsmann was sacked due to differences with the board though.
I agree with the second point but can we give him some time? To expect him to replace a manager of 25 odd years and start changing things for the better just four months into the season is crazy. He deserves even more time than usual due to the extraordinary situation he finds himself in. There's no precedent when it comes to replacing a manager at a club whose been there 25 odd years and just left you the league champions.
Managing a club like Everton and creating slow-burning success in terms of being competitive is a totally different mindset to being at a Championship-winning club where flair and dominating game after game is expected. It simply cannot be compared.. some managers are destined to work at bigger clubs because their coaching philosophy and style is geared towards getting the best out of quality players, other managers are more geared towards getting the best out of a limited bunch. Some can combine the two and adapt to any given situation.. it remains to be seen where Moyes will fall, but as of now.. he has no track record of success which is relevant to whether he'd cut it at United.
Do you think Arsenal would have replaced Wenger with Moyes? No they wouldn't have.
Even Spurs rejected him. Martinez on a limited budget got Wigan to play decent football, so does Laudraup at Swansea. Moyes has the wrong mentality to be manager of our club. Even Harry Redknapp is more attack minded than him.
I don't remember Bayern doing awfully well when Klinsi was sacked, though.
Moyes has found himself in an unusual sitiation, and so far has handled it as badly as can be expected in most aspects. Like I previously wrote, it was always going to be a tough ask, but at least he was supposed to have a team good enough to role on when he learns the ropes. Now he doesn't even have this. I don't know if he can come out of it. Someone else, of more experience at this level, yes. For him, it might be too much.
I don't actually think that expecting a manager to improve something within four months is crazy. Making everything worse, though, is a little...
Chelsea keep changing their manager yet keep winning, league & cup under Ancelotti, CL & cup under Di Matteo, Europa under Benitez. I really don't think they are the best example of the bad effects of changing managers.
As for Real Madrid, they did manage to wrestle the league away from the supposed best team in the world ever ever.
The current best side in the world have had quite a few managers in the last few seasons.
People comparing us to Chelsea and Real Madrid if we sack Moyes at this stage are idiots. Our current predicament is much worse than either of these two have ever found themselves in the last decade. However, I don't believe that it is correct to sack Moyes, just yet. He deserves the chance to turn this around after being an idiot as well as being let down by the club in the summer.
You can never compare United to Chelsea - two clubs run in completely different ways. Also, if Chelsea had stuck by Mourinho from the beginning instead of all this chopping and changing, do you really think they wouldn't have won more? Because I'm fairly certain if Mourinho didn't get stacked and stayed there the whole time, they'd have won a lot more.
Real Madrid are a unique case; look at how much they can spend year on year. As for Bayern yes, that is a valid example. But Bayern have been blessed with a great crop of youth come through, and the benefit of being able to take on every single best player in the Bundesliga. United have much more competition for the players they go after.
Why do you say that regarding Chelsea? Could it be something to do with the fact Mourinho had proven he can win in the Prem and also proven beyond any doubt that he can win everywhere?
There is nothing Moyes has shown in his career to date (at Everton or the almost half a year at United) that demonstrates he has what it takes to turn it around.
Let's face it, most of the top sides in the world have new managers this season, we're the only ones doing extremely badly. I could live with a transitional period if we at least perform to an acceptable level (United have one of the best 4 squads in the league), but languishing mid-table is simply unacceptable.
No - I say that because if Mourinho was at Chelsea, he could have continued to build the team and club the way he wanted to, which in turn means he maximizes his chance of success. Again, sorry to say but you're doing the classic on this forum right now which is twisting what normally wouldn't need to be twisted to try and prove that your thoughts on Moyes are correct.
Furthermore, how can you argue he hasn't shown anything which demonstrates an ability to turn a club that is struggling around? Honestly? Do you even remember what Everton were before he took them over?
I agree. Midtable is unacceptable. But it is not even halfway into the season yet - do you really think 15 games is enough? If you do then fair enough, but I won't bother discussing it with you because it's just plain wrong.
Also of all the arguments to throw up, it is the "other clubs with new managers are doing OK" one that is really baffling. It shows a complete lack of understanding of how our football club, that is, the one you claim to support, is run. We are hardly like any other club. Ferguson was manager here for 25+ years. He turned the club into exactly what he wanted it to be, how he wanted it to be run. You don't therefore change that easily. The staff, the players.. they are used to one way of doing things. One routine.
Also you say our squad is top 4. But again you don't understand that the best squad doesn't necessarily win the league. You're ignoring the mental side of the game.
Look, it's no point really discussing this. You've set your mind on Moyes not being good enough. I've set my mind on thinking we don't know. I think he could be good, or he could remain shit. I just think it's ridiculous that people can say he's got to go/he's is always gonna be shit after 15 games in charge. It shows a lack of grasp and understanding on our club, and on the scale of the task he has.
Nicely summed up.
Struggling is a relative concept, United struggling is NOW, Everton struggling is fighting relegation. I don't think Moyes will get us relegated, but he's only ever managed top 4 when everything has fallen into place for him. Things are not falling into place this season and top 4 should be the minimum requirement for us (actually I think top 3).
How many games do you think will be enough? 19? 30? a full season? What happens if we're too far from a CL place by then?
Well, it seems Moyes has got rid of most of the people who are used to the way Sir Alex was doing things, with Moyes and his collection of staff, I don't see how things are so different from other managers with their backroom teams at new clubs.
The best squad doesn't necessarily win the league, but they also shouldn't languish in 9th. The mental side of the game has everything to do with the manager, so the buck has to stop with him.
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