Actually, I was talking about Fellaini!
Mind you, I also believe we've made a mistake with Moyes, as you can read in my other reply. Sometimes patience just means you have time to dig a deeper hole.
Moyes So Far!
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Actually, I was talking about Fellaini!
Mind you, I also believe we've made a mistake with Moyes, as you can read in my other reply. Sometimes patience just means you have time to dig a deeper hole.
The question I always ask myself- why did United not go for the best manager available on the market? Either United thought Moyes is the best manager or absolutely nobody else was available.
It's obviously nothing we ever going to find out, so if you find that hard to believe than you are free to feel that. I'm saying that it is a possibilty that any manager who followed Sir Alex would not be able handle that pressure right away. The other part of your post is impossible to debate, as that again is pure speculation on your part, though I dont agree with your reasoning (or lack there of).
I have serious doubts. I think he's so far behind in terms of what he needs to know and the ability to implement things. Learning the transfer market at those level, combining several competitions, handling big squads, rotation, handling bigger ego's, etc...
The one saving grace he had, was that he inherited a good team - not brilliant, not Bayern of last season, but a good team, one that should put us in a decent position while he learns, without too much pressure. But even that has quickly gone downhill. He's in a hole now, and he still has to learn all that he has to learn while somehow digging his way out of it. The pressure must be horrible. The biggest chance of his career and he's got to find solutions he never has in his life.
I feel sorry for him. Loved what he did at Everton, wanted to see him get a bigger job (not us, though, not right away). But we asked him to take a big jump and now the cliff has suddenly become double in height. It's almost unfair, really.
He is part of the answer. We needed a player capable of filling a DM role - we were short in numbers as well as short on quality. We had zero back-up for Carrick. At the very beginning Moyes said he was looking to bring in a couple of CMs, one more of a DM, the other more of an allrounder. If we had landed both, I doubt anyone would have had such a problem with Fellaini. Him having trouble settling in wouldn't have been that much of an issue. People are frustrated, they see a midfield that isn't working in general, they look at a clearly overpriced Fellaini who doesn't seem anything like a midfield saviour - and the outcome is inevitable: He becomes a scapegoat and an object of abuse.
Give the big fecker time. He can become a very handy player for us. What we need is that other fella - and Fellaini will appear in a different light, as a useful alternative and a valuable squad player. The fee is what it is, there is no sense in focusing on that. If we only had thirty million to spend, it was sheer lunacy to blow it all on Fellaini - but if this is truly the case, our club is a nuthouse from the owners on down. And we can't think that, surely.
Well, my bad! Though I still think it's way too soon to write off Fellaini as well, but I know opinions change drastically after a few good games, so we'll see come the end of the season :smug:
You'll never know if you're digging yourself deeper or if the manager is going to turn it around though. I say Manchester United is a club that should, and hopefully will, give anyone, either player or manager, a chance to prove themselves. I'm certain that the decision was not taken hastily, and you have to recognise that the personell involved in the hiring process can be topped by none, and we should have trust in their decision. How many times did Fergie do something noone agreed with, only to see that it worked brilliantly (7 defenders against Arsenal anyone?).
Yeah, my main gripe was that he wasn't able to get stuck into the transfer market, for whatever reason. A lack of signings may just cost him his job.
Fair enough, as you say there's no way of knowing if Mourinho would or would not crumble under the pressure etc. But as I said in my previous point, even if the board would have made a simple pro/cons list comparing those two, I just don't know what could have persuaded anyone to pick Moyes over Mourinho. All personal dislike aside for Mourinho, but there's really no comparison between them. Literally, there's empirical evidence that Mourinho is a better coach than Moyes. It's a scientific fact. But I agree, we'll probably never really know.
It's possible. But for the last couple of years, whenever the thread about Fergie's replacement came up, I always said it should me Mourinho because he's the one man who'll not only handle the pressure but actually RELISH the possibility of taking over from Sir Alex. Obviously you never know for sure, but he seems to have that sort of persona. Also, he's managed big clubs. Three years in Madrid alone are more than excellent preperation. It's probably a harder job anyway.
Did Moyes actually at any point (while he was still at Everton) hint that he'd like to manage United?
I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this matter, but I'm fairly sure that it's more to it than the board making a pro/con-list when it comes to selecting a new manager
I bet it's a fairly delicate process, and that they had their reasons. For all we know, Mourinho feared the job and we all know how much the Madrid-job drained the poor man. I'm not sure himself could deal with the United-job after the circus he had to withstand in Spain to be honest.I understand that you feel that Mourinho was the better choice, and I was hoping for Mourinho as the new United-manager for quite a long time myself, but now that we have Moyes here, I feel it's our duty and job to give the new United-manager some time to turn things around. Sacking the manager after a few poor results it's an easy way, and a cowards way and neither is what Manchester United is all about. It's about club identity, and I dont feel comfortable changing this just because a few fans are panicking due to being spoilt. (Not aimed at you spesifically obviously).
We've always given managers a fair crack, to be fair. Whether the current owners are of the same mindset is another matter.
But if your not good enough just like the youth players you have to get shipped out. You say your sure but do you know?? I'm sure United would have probably liked a sterner process of picking the next manager but if the greatest manager of all time says this is your man... are you not going to listen?
We as fans all know he was a negative manager that had no success at the last hurdle but we thought lets give him time his Fergie's choice. Unfortunately he's come here and done exactly what he does at Everton.
1) Poor transfer window's
2) Slow start to the league
3) Negative football
Only difference is he hasn't got a bunch of players that have earned his trust. Like he does with Everton I believe he can turn it around.. but after seeing this start i have 100% faith if he was to succeed here we would be a team built on exactly the same foundations as his previous and that is not United's philosophy.
The fee isn't so much the issue. Like everyone I'm hoping for a big improvement in ability, but unless it happens, it doesn't matter if we pay 28m or 5m. For whatever fee, he'd be another player who is part of our squad but isn't good enough. Which is why signing a second midfielder isn't the issue. Fellaini looks a misfit and he'd still be one even if we had Xavi alongside him.
I don't expect Fellaini to be a saviour. We need ball holding players, and I think we all knew that. But the problem is that during the summer I felt we needed two midfielders, and now I feel that we need, err, two midfielders. Because Fellaini adds nothing and solves nothing. So what was the point?
We need midfielders who can actually make forward passes.
Add in that we looked pretty good against Bayer Leverkusen in Germany who arent a crap side, currently 2nd in the Bundesliga which is a damned good league. We need to play like that consistently so the potential is there.
Giving up after so few games when there have been signs of quality ( Bayer Leverkusen) mixed in with a lot of poor is panicking really.
Sure, if you're not good enough then you should move on. How long do we give players to prove their worth though? 5 months? No, we usually give them atleast a few seasons. We're all just fans, it's impossible to say anything for certain about the process or why anyone was selected to a certain job. I know as much as you or anyone else on this forum about why Moyes was prefered ahead of the likes of Guardiola, Mourinho, Martinez, Eriksson or even Egil Drillo Olsen. I do think that Fergie had a massive saying in the next Manchester United-manager, but the owners/the board would not be very good at their jobs if they listened to him without anyone presenting options and to have an open debate about this. Then again, I know nothing about the process and for all I know they just drew a name out of a hat.
I'm not so sure about the other points that you're trying to make though. Sure, he'd rather go for a draw than risk a win at a club like Everton, but he did have them playing very good football at times and we cannot expect him to have the United-mentality from the second he got the job. He'll adapt and mold the club as he likes, and we've played some very good football at times just this season, though we havent got the results that we hoped for. It is still plenty to improve upon, but the signs of something good is there if you dont always focus on the negatives.
As I stated in another thread, I dont feel the transfer window was as poor as people made it out. We see new managers bring in plenty of new players when they arrive, and that is to maintain short term glory rather than looking at the bigger picture. Moyes was never going to arrive at the club and ship out several of the senior players of a Premier League-winning team. Both Moyes and Manchester United is looking at this over a longer periode of time, and he assessed the squad and tried to bring in a few players without success. Plenty of players should be performing much better than what they currently are, and it's always easy to judge a transfer window in hindsight. We now say that he should've brought in atleast 2 more CMs, a left back, a winger, but how on earth could we know that all of our wingers suffered a total meltdown at the same time? How could we be sure that Evertons best player would fail to live up to the expectations after just a few months of football at a new club, and the failure of bringing in Contreao in the very last second might be down to bad luck. He could've done better, but before the season noone expected major changes (as some are suggesting now). I'm gonna stop writing this post now, as it's getting ridiculously long.
I'll say two things:
A) Patience is a virtue, as long as it doesn't become the most important thing - i.e., showing patience just for the sake if it, just to show that we're different. I hope people at the top levels of the club are looking very carefully as Moyes's work and are keeping an open mind - on both possibililites. Charlton/Edwards said they knew even in 1990 Fergie was doing great work in rebuilding the club which helped them maintain faith in him. Hopefully people at United know if Moyes is doing good work and just needs more time, or is doing very badly and is in trouble.
We shouldn't completely rule out the possibility of letting him go early if we realise he's not up to the job - It's possible that he's not, he's never worked at that level before. Hopefully it won't be the case, but it could be. In many ways, we are like any other club with a new manager - sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes you hire the wrong man. And sticking by him isn't going to help anyone.
B) Fergie. Unfortunately, he isn't infallible. And he's never appointed a manager, so that's new territory even for him. Charlton hasn't exactly been a part of appointing a whole lot of United managers either, and Gill's never done it. Not a word on the Glazers!
I'll stop it for now, amir. Can we just agree that everyone should be given a fair chance, and that even if Moyes is not the answer, he is one of many options and we'll know in a few years if it's the right option or not
I have no issues with not bring a winger, but Moyes himself wanted two midfielders (not that you have to be a genius for that...). But if there's one person who should be able to judge Fellaini best in all aspects, it would be Moyes, wouldn't it? As for Coentrao, it wasn't bad luck. When you wait until the last minute, sometimes things happen and sometimes they don't/
I'll stop it for now, amir. Can we just agree that everyone should be given a fair chance, and that even if Moyes is not the answer, he is one of many options and we'll know in a few years if it's the right option or not
We can't agree if the idea already is that we give Moyes YEARS. Though maybe it's not quite what you meant.
I would like if we gave him years, but that was indeed not quite what I meant. What I was trying to say is that it's impossible to deem something a failure or not merely 5 months into a project, and that we'll see in a few years if they made the right choice by choosing Moyes
Fair enough - it all comes down to the same old thing, don't it? If he cannot improve, he will obviously turn out to be a...failure. Much like the man who is responsible for bringing him in.
To me it's clear that he hasn't settled in yet - and that he has to a large extent underperformed. He is a better footballer than he has shown so far - and that's reason enough to be patient with him for the time being.
Yeah and to someone in the same coloured shirt would be a bonus
I got this from Sky, I think it was part of Neville's analysis, not sure if I'm late or not. Shocking stats. This was before today's game so we were probably last. Behind West Ham.
Forward passes this weekend
We have to give Moyes this year and a couple of transfer windows to get it right, mind you Fellaini thus far does not promote confidence in his dealings.Panic Buy?(Definitely) Is he a better player than he is showing? (Definitely). Will he improve? (Not sure) The big fish in a little pond springs to mind.
My god that is more than shocking..Think I best grab another cold oneI got this from Sky, not sure if I'm late or not. Shocking stats. This was before today's game so we were probably last. Behind West Ham.
Forward passes this weekend
I'm struggling to accept the big fish and small pond thing, because many said even before the transfer was done that he's simply not good enough. Unless he proves otherwise, I wouldn't put it into the 'unable to handle the situation' basket.
I got this from Sky, I think it was part of Neville's analysis, not sure if I'm late or not. Shocking stats. This was before today's game so we were probably last. Behind West Ham.
Forward passes this weekend
Yeah I watched his analysis, I knew we had problems, I wouldn't have guessed they were that bad. But I've been crying out for players who can pass in the middle of the pitch, not DM types.
Not sure, and I agree what he had achieved never made him an obvious target for us. But at least he looked half decent at Everton.Lets hope he proves us all wrong. I for one won't be holding my breath
Indeed. Its patently obvious that we have no one to link our play. Some people here kept saying that Modric is overrated. Imagine how much difference someone like that would make.
Good analysis by Neville and Carra.
Good post. Agreed on everything
Good clip
You paint a rosy picture but the reality seems to be quite different.
Saw this posted on RI today, quite amusing imo
http://starwars.com/play/online-activities/crawl-creator/?cs=mvnbanuubn
http://starwars.com/play/online-activities/crawl-creator/?cs=mvnbanuubn
I'm just curious, how many managers from having a really bad first season, and able to turn the table on second season? Maybe United/fans can learn a thing or two from those.
Agreed with your statement, where it is important for the club (and boards) to show support to the new manager, as it will set a precedent for any incoming managers in the future. That United aren't trigger happy, and anyone who's coming will get their fair share of time.
Of course, season evaluation can't be neglected over the new manager. The good thing is, United have good footballing figures with fast experience and knowledge on the director boards to perform fair and better assessment. With this, we don't say we put blind faith on the new manager, but more on our footballing figures in the club.
Comment at the end is one for thought
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