Hence 'virtual' rather than actual. One big signing doesn't really weigh up against the signings of any of our rivals.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Hence 'virtual' rather than actual. One big signing doesn't really weigh up against the signings of any of our rivals.
I agree that we do need to address our pretty one dimensional style but I think it's currently being driven largely by the midfield and the combined lack of attacking and defensive strength there. Look at the Bayer Lev game, our mid played well (partly due to their ineptitude) and we were perfectly comfortable playing through the middle and in Giggs in a deeper role and Kagawa there we could.
Generally though especially with Carrick out our midfield is devoid of any real passing ability or intent, only Giggs offers penetrative passes and he can't play often and is largely inconsistent as well as sometimes a bit of a liability defensively. I mean we knew we had a weak midfield but now we've got a weak midfield and out of form midfield. That's pretty much worst case scenario, and so whilst I agree we don't play centrally enough I think that is being driven largely by the midfield.
It's not all the midfield and thats where the other problem has come from, the use of Valencia and Welbeck. Both are useful players but both are reliant on others to do things for them. Welbeck isn't a creator or a big threat, he fits in nicely to a flowing team which we haven't been, or can be an asset when you're looking to grind it out. Valencia is very reliant on particular service. He needs the ball in a certain area to really threaten and the deeper he has to come the less effective he becomes. And so with a midfield that is not good at passing at all and even reluctant to try ambitious passes we really can't even utilise them, so now we're weak in the middle and can't really threaten and have lacked the ruthlessness of RVP in front of goal.
I think it's slightly understandable why Moyes has looked to use these two often during this period, but it's just not worked, there's too much of an absence of passing from deep and ruthlessness in the absence of RVP. And then the other problem is that it's stopped the other more individually capable players, such as nani and januzaj building momentum. I know kagawa has been playing but even he has been shifted about to utilise Welbeck which hasn't worked the last two times at least.
With these guys we're either giving them only 60 mins to get in to gear or playing only one or two of them, and not really letting them interlink. They could well give that central threat we lack but until they're allowed to have a run of games together, and ideally with at least two of them, if not 3 when RVP or Rooney aren't playing, then they'll struggle with that understanding. I think they need to play together to get the best out of them because they can play off each other in a way they can't with Welbeck or Valencia. Valencia isn't going to make an inside run for Kagawa. That's not to say his style is bad or Kagawa's better but that there's a clash of ideas there. But again that for me is driven by the midfield and Moyes being concerned that we'll lack physicalstrength/work rate, and even they will still be affected by the lack of decent passing behind them.
But personally I think get a proper midfielder with Carrick, or even Jones when Carrick's out and it changes the team completely, especially if Moyes sticks with nani, januzaj and kagawa. Then they'll have the base they need, and Valencia will still have his part to play. It might take a few games to get going but I think it would change the team completely.
It's amazing how it's gone since the Arsenal game, we looked primed to go on a good run then, and then we lost Carrick and RVP and I guess many sensed the danger there as these two did cover up some core cracks in the team last season and these last two weeks have been as ruthless as they could be really. As I said though, personally I really think the vast majority is stemming from that one area directly and indirectly, via all the subsequent ramifications it's having on other areas.
We did and it shows how fine the lines are between feeling as if things are progressing in the right direction and feeling as if the team have lost their way.
Lets say instead of losing 0-1 to Everton and Newcastle, breaking decades old records in the process, we'd scrambled our way to draws in those games. 9 points behind the leaders (not 13), 7th (not 9th), 5 points off fourth place. Not great, but a different enough situation that we'd be looking positively at the Arsenal and Leverkusen results and saying that we're not that far off, and better times are coming.
I think the players are on edge. Fear of failure superceding desire to win. They don't look like a team, they don't look like they believe in themselves or each other, and that's far more serious than any tactical flaws, or selection issues or even individual form.
Apart from the hiccups we have had over the last few weeks, this month will decide as to whether Moyes is good enough to stay as our manager. I have complete faith in him and I know he must be doing something right. I mean, you don't beat Leverkusen by a large score when they are second place in the Bundesliga. They are a quality side and to beat them, Moyes had to put out a side that was capable of beating that side. That night he found his almost-perfect team, and it worked a treat. However, I feel that Moyes is still tinkering around with the side to see who is best in their positions and although it might be detrimental to the way we are playing at the moment, I can't help thinking that he is going to do exactly what Sir Alex did all those years ago; get rid of all dead wood and bring in fresh, new faces. If that is what he is going to do then, I hope he rings the changes and if he gets rid of Evra, Young or even Anderson, those who have either served their purpose or are surplus to requirements then, so be it. There is no room for sentiment in football and if he wants to succeed, then he needs to get rid and bring in those he feels can do the job.
Indeed. Moyes needs to get 'em playing as a team, that's the fundamental thing. I actually thought we were making progress in that department - we did look better at one stage than we did to begin with, more together. In that sense the season has been more up and down than simply a downward spiral.
If there's a bright side here it would be that sometimes it takes very little to turn such a collective rut around: Three points, regardless of what fashion we gain them in, could make all the difference. Just get back on track, more or less, regain some confidence. Then Moyes can continue working on the details.
The huge worry for me at the moment is that he might be losing the dressing room. If that happens it will take a monumental effort to turn things around. He can't bring in a whole new team in January.
I think he is beginning to lose it to be honest. I think Rio may have had a hand in that after Ryan Giggs, he is a senior player and a large number of the younger players would probably listen to Rio and take note of what he has to say. The fact that Rio came out and spoke of Moyes in a manner that doesn't befit a Manchester United player is unforgivable. He is undermining the training methods, he is undermining the manager and the coaching staff and to be honest, at this moment in time, Moyes doesn't need it and we as fans don't need it. We are playing catch up and the less distraction we have, the better it would be for everyone, even if Moyes keeps Rio on the sidelines just to show him that he is boss.
If there's any truth in that it's possible Rio could be on his way out in January.
Yeah there really is a fine line and that's where I think we've been very unlucky. We lost Carrick and RVP at the worst time and at the same time, even on Sunday when we lost Rooney we then randomly lost Kagawa to injury who would likely have been able to give more than an unsharp RVP. I mean it happens that sometimes you lose your best players and so need to rely on the squad ones but we've lost key players at a time when the squad players aren't playing well and we've had no luck to go with it. We've made mistakes, and we've got problems in the team but we've also been unfortunate.
The thing is I think Moyes does want to play the likes of Januzaj, kagawa and nani more and play the more stylish way people are saying he doesn't know how to play, and if the injury to Carrick hadn't have happened we might have seen it, but now I think we're being made to look weaker than we are and Moyes look out of his depth when really it's just one or two problems being exposed in the most ruthless way, another season we just get that bit of luck that see's us through it and its the difference between a crisis and not.
Wouldn't blame Moyes for getting rid of him. He has been completely awful in each of the games he has played and then came out talking how it's hard to concentrate when Moyes tells the team only in the day of the match, while we have hard many times that Sir Alex do the same.
I love Rio and he is probably our best ever CB and has given fantastic service for us, but he is neither playing well, and as a senior member should know better than coming with such interviews.
I hope so. He has done his job really well, but with his back problems over the years, and the fact he is getting slower and slower, means that it makes us vulnerable. Suffice to say, I used to be a DDG critic, but ever since then, I have felt sorry for him in that when Rio and Evra play, he can only count on half of his defenders to do their jobs, whilst the other half is either to far up the pitch to get back, or the other is just too slow. They have done well and I think it is time for change. Let us start from the back and get Evans and Vidic as the senior defenders with Rafa and either one of Baines, Shaw, Oviedo or even Coentrao.
Absolutely this!! A great servant, but he has come out at the wrong time to start criticising the manager. It is so easy to criticise a new manager when he himself didn't have the testicular fortitude to come out with the same about Sir Alex. I am certain that Rio is the trouble-maker in the squad and even though he has been a great servant, if we want to get anywhere, we need to get rid of dead wood. If a new broom does indeed sweep clean, then I hope Moyes proves it.
I was reading a few days ago about the class of '92 and when asked for the debute, pretty much all of them mentioned that they didn't know until the last day that they will play and how they were shocked. I have read many other times that Sir Alex didn't told the players who will start until in the match day or the previous day. So the dig on Moyes for doing what Sir Alex constantly did (and for likely many other managers do) was completely un-neccesary and unfair IMO.
The world we once knew is no longer. The whole 'we always do better in the second half of the season', even if it was true in the past (not always), is not a given anymore.
As for nearly all the teams above us having inferior teams, well, it hasn't prevented them playing better football and getting more points than us with half the season nearly gone. There's no way of telling where this story is going.
Testicular fortitude. Good one @proud_lyonI actually agreed with the post that I quoted. It just seems that Ferdinand doesn't like Moyes for some reason. Perhaps Moyes actually left him out for some reason when perhaps Ferdinand might have thought he was untouchable with a new manager. If Moyes left him out because of sub-par performances, then he is going about the job the right way. He needs to find which players he can count on, yet at the same time, try not to over play the likes of Januzaj, since he is young. As for letting players know either the day before or on matchday, it is a fantastic idea, because it will keep every player on their toes, not knowing if they were going to be on the teamsheet or not. If they found out a few days earlier then, it would give them an opportunity to not put the training in and just have lazy days. Sir Alex did the right thing and I get the impression that Moyes has had some tips from Sir Alex and is applying them.
I could have just said "bollocks", couldn't I?
I could have just said "bollocks", couldn't I?
God no. I've actually noted that down and used it since you posted it. Great use of words.
God no. I've actually noted that down and used it since you posted it. Great use of words.
I've used it quite often on this forum to be honest.
Great debate on Talksport right now. Interesting hearing all the differing opinions.
Collymore actually very good
Collymore actually very good
Struggle with results, yes. Look as poor as we have? As 11 individuals with nothing connecting them and total lack of ideas in the final third? No. Even with everyone fit we haven't looked good enough for the most part. Fair go to Moyes, we had issues before he arrived. But he only made everything worse so far.
Fellaini is a particularly troubling mistake, though. It's not a typical case of a manager following a player. Moyes coached him, knows his abilities. He also signed him late on, after spending two months with the team. And still, despite everything, thought it was a good fit...
I liked it made alot of sense. I think fans are split between philosophy and success... I still believe we have the right philosophy just the wrong man.
I don't get this "struggling with injuries" excuse some people are throwing around. I could swear I've seen quotes by David Moyes from a little bit earlier in the season saying how we had been lucky with inuries up until that point. I think it was at that point van Persie got injured. Missing him and Carrick should be no excuse to performing as poorly as we have. If Carrick is so important that we simply can't do without him, then that is on Moyes. It's on Ferguson too, but now it is on Moyes.
It's a bit too early to say he's a mistake. He's still finding his feet at United and showing signs of improvement.
I'm in complete agreement mate. You could tell Collymore kind of felt the same - knows club should provide time but even he's surprised at how poorly it's going
Fergie most certainly got it wrong, though I doubt it had anything to do with the motives you've mentioned (He's not good at choosing midfielders so he won't sign any at all? Seriously?!).
But Moyes had four months between getting the job and the closing of the transfer window. Doesn't seem Woodward did a job good, but what names was he given by the manager? Fabregas, that wasn't going to happen. There was Herrera, which seeme to have come up very late and in any event Moyes says he wasn't willing to pay with Bilbao wanted, which meant the deal wasn't going to happen either. Then there was Fellaini.
Seems like Moyes did a pretty poor job of coming up with options. I think it's due to his lack of knowledge in that level of European football and lack of scouting there.
Just to clarify, I didn't sleep with David Moyes' daughter either so this is not the reason why I'm not getting on the MUFC first team sheet these days.
Cheers
Cheers
I can accept your wish for patience, but even in a good performance or two recently he didn't seem to be anywhere near what he need.
Moyes said he wasn't the answer, but would give us something different. Not having a preseason for us didn't help and he's trying to establish himself in a team short of confidence whilst carrying an injury that needs surgery.
It's a strange situation for everyone though. Moyes is not used to the pressure of managing such a huge club as Manchester United (to be fair, only one manager has been for the last 26 years), the fans are not used to having a new manager, and the players are not used to be this low on confidence.
This is a periode where we see what every single one of us is made of though, and the fact that some people are demanding that Moyes is sacked / resigns this early is a sign of how some people are spoilt with the success of the club in the last few decades. This is where we show that we're united though. We're united as fans, we're united as a team and we're god damn United.
This is a periode where we see what every single one of us is made of though, and the fact that some people are demanding that Moyes is sacked / resigns this early is a sign of how some people are spoilt with the success of the club in the last few decades. This is where we show that we're united though. We're united as fans, we're united as a team and we're god damn United.
I hardly post, so I'm not going to take offense to that
Which begs the question, why give him the job?
I'm certain that people with vastly more knowledge than you and me came to the conclusion that he was suited for the job. We could give Mourinho the job, and he could crumble under the pressure of being the United-manager. It's really impossible to predict how certain people would react to an unknown situation, and I'm more than willing to let Moyes try and steady the ship. I'm sure that we have capable people within the club to see when/if a change is needed, but I for one dont want to be a fan of a club that blames / sack the manager the second things are not looking golden.
The pressure is unavoidable when you're managing United, but you know the best way to lower it? Make good decisions, get your team to play decent football and get some decent results. It's not rocket science, but Moyes has been as far away as the moon.
The incredible thing is, while I realised Fergie's huge importance, I also felt he took his eye of the ball a little in recent years. It gave me confidence that at least part of what we lost would be gained by a fresh manager with fresh ideas who'll give us better style, do things differently, maybe even manage to get something new out of players like Nani, Valencia, Young, Anderson. But we've got none of the possible positives...
If he's not the answer, or at least part of the answer, then what is he? Most of us realised our midfield needed some muscle, a defensive minded player. We got one - good enough or not, how can he not be part of the answer?
Would have been better if Fellaini had pre season with us, but at least he didn't arrive after not having pre season at all with his previous club. We also don't know how his (hand) injury is affecting him. I doubt it would make a huge difference.
Like I said, I understand people want to give him time, but I'm ready to call it a dud. Sometimes you don't need a year or two.
Several clubs got new managers (City, Chelsea, Everton to name 3 above us) and there were plenty of midfielders moving over the summer (Thiago, Fernandinho, Paulinho, Strootman, McCarthy, Fellaini,...) or probably available at the right price (Cabaye,...). I've no doubt money was available for whatever targets Moyes had. He inherited a squad that had just won the league easily. Relative to the league competition, it seems like a situation that a good manager should be able to handle. Hopefully he will, starting soon.
Sorry Amir, but this is the problem with some of our fans these days. Since when did United-fans quit this easy? We've suffered 5 losses, but will we really resort to sacking a manager even before freaking new years? We're not City, nor Chelsea or Madrid. We're Manchester United, and we've been spoilt with success for the last decades and you know what that success was built upon? Patience, trust and support. So go ahead and give up on the manager that Sir Alex and Sir Bobby deemed worthy enough to lead the club forward, but it's going to be hard to live down these comments if/when things turn around.
There should be nothing but support for Moyes and the team at Old Trafford. But there's nothing wrong with people having doubts, talking about them on an internet forum and even believing he's the wrong man for the job and should be let go.
We have to accept that for the first time in many years, we are far more similar to other clubs then we've been. We don't have that security of knowing we have a great manager and even though mistakes are being made, eventually he'll find the way to success again. We have a new manager, unproven at those levels. He may come good, or he might be a total failure. So far, the signs are bad.
We don't want to become like those clubs that sack their managers every other week, but sometimes managers are let go early for the right reasons, because the club realises they made a mistake in appointing them and don't want to prolong it.
People have to accept that there is the possibility we've made a mistake. And if so, the sooner we change direction - the better. Personally, I think we've made a grave error. I've no issues with people who think otherwise, but I wish they keep an open mind.
I find this very hard to believe. The only reason Moyes was given the job over Mourinho is because the former is Scottish (British, whatever you want to call it).
Don't you think there's anyway Moyes can turn it around?
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