Moyes So Far!

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Rednails said:
Interesting observation in today's DT by Mark Ogden.

"When asked, after United's fifth league defeat of the season, whether the team's failings were a result of too many changes since taking the job, Moyes bristled and insisted that he had changed nothing with the exception of promoting teenaged winger Januzaj and signing midfielder Fellaini. Moments earlier however, Moyes spoke of United being in transition and that the turbulence he and the team have endured was only to be expected. "


"So which is it to be? How can United be a team in transition if the manager has made no changes and if transition is a negative reality, how are Everton managing the process under Martinez?"

I have noticed before how Moyes sometimes contradicts himself and how he can unintentionally put his foot in it ( eg. saying Rooney would be needed if RVP ever got injured in the close season and adding more fuel to that particular fire.)

My sad conclusion is that a man who cannot think quickly on his feet, shows little imagination and is over cautious and naive in such things as transfer dealings just does not have what it takes to tackle such a massive job as Manchester United's Manager. A proper recruitment exercise would have demonstrated that of course and proves the folly of a plc allowing one man to choose his own successor. The Board has a lot to answer for and will go the way of all dynasties if it does not change its ways. I feel sorry for Moyes tbh, he should have realised his limitations and stayed where he was.
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Everton have been helped hugely by the fortunate signing of Lukaku and the emergence of Barkley. I don't believe that a magic wand has been waved by Martinez. Any club outside the top four would have jumped a level after being handed Lukaku. He is that good. Credit to Martinez for landing him of course.

As for being in transition, we have lost a manager and all of his backroom staff, and David Gill. The Glazers don't seem to be involved in day to day activities, so the transition is all behind the scenes and not what we are seeing out on the pitch.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
No point at all. But then the question must rather be whether he can become good at United or not. The board obviously think he can. They probably didn't give the job to him because they expected him to hit the ground running.
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I would rather gamble on someone with more interesting approach and ideas then, if that's the case. Moyes so far has been uninspiring. I am not even talking about the results. All I want to see is glimpse of potential. At this point, a glimpse is good enough for me.
 
How can he seriously claim he's changed nothing when he's completely altered our training routine as well as clearing out our entire backroom staff to make way for his dross?

And changing nothing wouldn't have exactly been a good start anyway considering our desperate need to bolster our midfield - to which his solution was to overpay for Fellaini on deadline day as a panic buy.

Not exactly looking assertive.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Quite a self-defeating statement isn't it. Then what's the point of appointing Moyes then, if we think he wouldn't be good at United.
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Honestly? Why bother. You just twist what people to say for no apparent reason.

I didn't say he wouldn't be good full stop. I said just because he was good at Everton doesn't mean he'll be good here. That applies to every single manager and player who is good at one club. It doesn't inherently make you amazing somewhere else. If you can't fathom that...
 
rpitroda said:
Honestly? Why bother. You just twist what people to say for no apparent reason.

I didn't say he wouldn't be good full stop. I said just because he was good at Everton doesn't mean he'll be good here. That applies to every single manager and player who is good at one club. It doesn't inherently make you amazing somewhere else. If you can't fathom that...
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Not disagreeing with any of that. In short, he isn't good at United.
 
LonelyFire said:
Yes, im very sure. We had plenty to spend. Woodward wad obsessed with a marquee player and would pay silly money to get them. The low bid for Fabregas was his naivety but he bid big on Bale.

Woodwards stance is we will spend big on the right player.
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Bale bid? When did that happen then?
 
RedRonaldo said:
Not disagreeing with any of that. In short, he isn't good at United.
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I still disagree with this, which is what the original point was. The correct statement is he isn't good at United YET. No one knows for a fact that he won't ever be good here. The fact is we just don't know. As time goes on, and things continue not to improve, then gradually people and myself included, as I have already started to, will lose more and more faith in him. I just think people who have decided he is shit after 15 games shows a lack of understanding of what kind of task he has on his hands, and a lack of impatience.

It's clear you and I will disagree on this, but I still maintain that it is utterly ridiculous to think you know for a fact he won't be good with us. Anyone who has reached that conclusion is naive. In the same way, if someone thinks he will succeed for sure, they are also very naive. My key point is 15 games is FAR too soon to make a judgement.

The other thing I don't understand is what is the gain in this continual lambasting of him? Some people just come here and into this thread and all day all night are arguing why he is shit and all the mistakes he has made. What good does this do? Do they really think all the negativity will see him out? I don't, because Ferguson and Charlton know the value of giving managers time. I don't think he will be fired any time soon, at least until the end of the season if not longer. It's fair enough to talk about his mistakes, and even those who support him acknowledge his mistakes. I just don't see the point in people coming here going on and on and on about it, creating a negative atmosphere. They think this doesn't affect the team and the manager. They think they're just posting on a random forum. But in the end everything contributes to the "feel" around the club, and ultimately it isn't helping.
 
rpitroda said:
Honestly? Why bother. You just twist what people to say for no apparent reason.

I didn't say he wouldn't be good full stop. I said just because he was good at Everton doesn't mean he'll be good here. That applies to every single manager and player who is good at one club. It doesn't inherently make you amazing somewhere else. If you can't fathom that...
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Exactly, we could have got a big name manager and he could have failed miserably. When Arsenal got Wenger, he wasn't a massive name in world football, but he is a damn good manager. Any appointment after SAF was going to be a risk. What if we got rid of Moyes and the next manager was a failure, what then? If Moyes then goes somewhere else and is a great success, what then? What if SAF comes back and it affects his health, would everyone then feel guilty. He should be enjoying his retirement at his age, not coming back to manage to keep some of you happy. Now that is selfish.
 
alastair said:
Apparently losing to Newcastle 'raised my[Moyes] spirits.'

Now that's a worry.
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:lol: To be fair though, we incidentally played some of our better football against Everton and Newcastle. To be fair I think we even did an overall better job against Everton than Arsenal did (bar the result). We've been a tad unlucky in these games. Still, unlucky isn't good enough of course, and we shouldn't even be needing luck to win these games. Lots of work to be done, but hoping we can at least make a move to get to the top 4. If we go out of the top 4 without a fight, then I'd be very disappointed.
 
Spoony said:
Bale bid? When did that happen then?
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Every fanzine carried the same story on Bale - there either all completely off or there was truth in it. A few of the nationals carried the same news and if you speak to some of the better journos (Northcroft being one) they will advise the same thing - we bid big for Bale but player wasnt interested.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Exactly, we could have got a big name manager and he could have failed miserably. When Arsenal got Wenger, he wasn't a massive name in world football, but he is a damn good manager. Any appointment after SAF was going to be a risk. What if we got rid of Moyes and the next manager was a failure, what then? If Moyes then goes somewhere else and is a great success, what then? What if SAF comes back and it affects his health, would everyone then feel guilty. He should be enjoying his retirement at his age, not coming back to manage to keep some of you happy. Now that is selfish.
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I'm fairly certain SAF wouldn't come back, and I don't really think anyone here is seriously asking him to come back? Anyway the point is no one knows how Moyes will turn out; 15 games in the PL is not enough to make the final judgement. He could end up shit, where you'll get those arrogant wankers more concerned about their ego's coming out in force saying "I told you so." He could end up good, and you'll get those coming out in force doing the same. Appears there is no room for the follower who wants to be rational, who understands that it could go both ways.
 
rpitroda said:
:lol: To be fair though, we incidentally played some of our better football against Everton and Newcastle. To be fair I think we even did an overall better job against Everton than Arsenal did (bar the result). We've been a tad unlucky in these games. Still, unlucky isn't good enough of course, and we shouldn't even be needing luck to win these games. Lots of work to be done, but hoping we can at least make a move to get to the top 4. If we go out of the top 4 without a fight, then I'd be very disappointed.
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You have been unlucky to be fair in both games, but as you say, you should over-ride that.

I personally feel you'll go big for a midfielder in January and it will buoy the club into finishing top four and then you can start again next season.
 
rpitroda said:
I'm fairly certain SAF wouldn't come back, and I don't really think anyone here is seriously asking him to come back? Anyway the point is no one knows how Moyes will turn out; 15 games in the PL is not enough to make the final judgement. He could end up shit, where you'll get those arrogant wankers more concerned about their ego's coming out in force saying "I told you so." He could end up good, and you'll get those coming out in force doing the same. Appears there is no room for the follower who wants to be rational, who understands that it could go both ways.
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There are some who want him back. It's like they have been dumped and will do anything to get someone back.
 
Raoul said:
He's definitely overwhelmed and probably quite taken aback at the criticism he's seeing in the press.
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Listening to both the Sunday Supplement and Press Pass shows yesterday, all seven of the journalist guests either defended or made excuses for Moyes.

Jim White [United supporter and Telegraph columnist] said: "If you look at it objectively, David Moyes has doe everything right. "

It might not be on the scale of Redknapp, Martinez or Jose, but he is a darling of a good number in the media still.

IMO he is getting off a bit lightly so far as his judgement and decisions made go, this "I've done nothing" defence doesn't wash at all. As Kaos pointed out in his post earlier our Dave was enacting changes right from day one, we've been gradually realising the consequences of them ever since. Of course it is a learning process, yet that only makes his decision to remove experienced coaches from the staff even more baffling.
 
Bilbo said:
Everton have been helped hugely by the fortunate signing of Lukaku and the emergence of Barkley. I don't believe that a magic wand has been waved by Martinez. Any club outside the top four would have jumped a level after being handed Lukaku. He is that good. Credit to Martinez for landing him of course.
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I think that's a very harsh assessment.

You look at Everton and although Lukaku has been great, the foundation of their success has been the midfield trio of Barkley, Barry and McCarthy. Of these three: two were Martinez signings and one has been propelled into the first XI after not featuring much previously. Likewise the loan signing of Deulofeu has added another dimension. I also think it's fair to say that if Baines got injured last season the fans would be very pessimistic as to their chances of putting a run together. Since Baines has been injured they've come back from behind to earn a point at Liverpool, have beaten United and drawn away to Arsenal.

I personally thought Martinez was a massively overrated manger who merely kept a team that should have stayed up, up (at his time there their salary bill was somewhere between 18th and 15th, which was par for where they finished, unlike the over-achievement of the likes of Swansea, West Brom, Norwich etc), before eventually getting them relegated. However you have to give him massive credit since he's been there, he's totally changed their style to a more attractive one, whilst bedding in 4 new signings and has still produced great results (have Everton ever had a better start)?

Moyes may have said the team could play "without a manager" and that he is merely "keeping it going" but I'd say that is as far from the truth as can be, he's changed them immensely. I also hated that quote because it's a dig at Fergie, essentially: the team I left behind were so organised they could carry on without a manager. Whereas it is abundantly clear that this isn't the case with the team he's inherited!
 
finneh said:
I think that's a very harsh assessment.

You look at Everton and although Lukaku has been great, the foundation of their success has been the midfield trio of Barkley, Barry and McCarthy. Of these three: two were Martinez signings and one has been propelled into the first XI after not featuring much previously. Likewise the loan signing of Deulofeu has added another dimension. I also think it's fair to say that if Baines got injured last season the fans would be very pessimistic as to their chances of putting a run together. Since Baines has been injured they've come back from behind to earn a point at Liverpool, have beaten United and drawn away to Arsenal.

I personally thought Martinez was a massively overrated manger who merely kept a team that should have stayed up, up (at his time there their salary bill was somewhere between 18th and 15th, which was par for where they finished, unlike the over-achievement of the likes of Swansea, West Brom, Norwich etc), before eventually getting them relegated. However you have to give him massive credit since he's been there, he's totally changed their style to a more attractive one, whilst bedding in 4 new signings and has still produced great results (have Everton ever had a better start)?

Moyes may have said the team could play "without a manager" and that he is merely "keeping it going" but I'd say that is as far from the truth as can be, he's changed them immensely. I also hated that quote because it's a dig at Fergie, essentially: the team I left behind were so organised they could carry on without a manager. Whereas it is abundantly clear that this isn't the case with the team he's inherited!
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Good point.
 
kouroux said:
:lol: I believe that covers football in its entirety.
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He neglected to mention coaching, tactics, the new managers communications skills e.t.c. Oh but then those would reflect upon his judgement wouldn't they?

Admittedly the squad is in need of a few reinforcements, yet the blasé way in which Moyes criticises his own people doesn't quite sit well with me. Has the guy never heard of s siege mentality, circle the wagons and all that.
 
Having finally got round to watching the Newcastle game, I can safely say that I think his job is on the line in the run up to xmas... I've never seen such an abject display from United at home, it was so bad.. we didn't even play as good as a relegation side. I found the whole notion of an injured RVP playing in the hole.. an area in which you have to cover some serious fecking yards unbelievable.

I really wanted Moyes to succeed but on the pitch it is just not happening. I get the fact the squad is not that great, I'm all for a clearout sale but this squad is still good enough for top 5.. 9th is not good enough and our performances seem to be regressing. I'm concerned that this is not the man to fix our midfield problems, I also want to ask.. does anyone see him capable of producing a side of outplaying the likes of Bayern/Barcelona if we give him 3-4 years in charge.. do we think the likes of P. Neville can coach us to that standard of play?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
He neglected to mention coaching, tactics, the new managers communications skills e.t.c. Oh but then those would reflect upon his judgement wouldn't they?

Admittedly the squad is in need of a few reinforcements, yet the blasé way in which Moyes criticises his own people doesn't quite sit well with me. Has the guy never heard of s siege mentality, circle the wagons and all that.
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The intense pressure is getting to him, it is too much of a step up from Everton to Utd. I was always afraid of that but I never thought those concerns would translate exactly into the reality.
 
Raees said:
Having finally got round to watching the Newcastle game, I can safely say that I think his job is on the line in the run up to xmas... I've never seen such an abject display from United at home, it was so bad.. we didn't even play as good as a relegation side. I found the whole notion of an injured RVP playing in the hole.. an area in which you have to cover some serious fecking yards unbelievable.

I really wanted Moyes to succeed but on the pitch it is just not happening. I get the fact the squad is not that great, I'm all for a clearout sale but this squad is still good enough for top 5.. 9th is not good enough and our performances seem to be regressing. I'm concerned that this is not the man to fix our midfield problems, I also want to ask.. does anyone see him capable of producing a side of outplaying the likes of Bayern/Barcelona if we give him 3-4 years in charge.. do we think the likes of P. Neville can coach us to that standard of play?
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I would agree with that - Martin Samuel's article in the Mail today is spot on. We all expected an impact, but 9th place? Does the owners patience stretch that far? I dont believe so.

Im not doubting he was left an ageing squad that has some severe deficiencies i.e. midfield. However, the squad is significantly better than the performances or league position suggest. Moyes has to take a fair amount of responsibility for that. That said, he wasnt backed in the summer and he really ought to have been. Woodward/Glazers severely fecked up here.

As for today's press conference - we have to improve on passing, creating chances, and defending? Really David? Really?
 
Evra
Vidic
Ferdinand
Carrick
Giggs

I wouldn't say this current squad is an ageing squad, more a mediocre squad with a few top class, or upcoming top class players. We've got talented CBs in Evans, Smalling and Jones, who I think are more than capable of stepping up once Vidic and Ferdinand leave. We can easily sign a replacement LB, and Giggs has been on the periphery for a couple of seasons now so I don't think him leaving would be such an impact. Great young GK and RB as well as two world class strikers. It's really just the centre midfield that should have been fixed a long time ago. Since 2008, really. Oh, and I suppose our wingers going to shit can't really be blamed on Ferguson or Moyes, or on age. Our flanks need replacing asap.
 
Mel_F said:
Evra
Vidic
Ferdinand
Carrick
Giggs

I wouldn't say this current squad is an ageing squad, more a mediocre squad with a few top class, or upcoming top class players. We've got talented CBs in Evans, Smalling and Jones, who I think are more than capable of stepping up once Vidic and Ferdinand leave. We can easily sign a replacement LB, and Giggs has been on the periphery for a couple of seasons now so I don't think him leaving would be such an impact. Great young GK and RB as well as two world class strikers. It's really just the centre midfield that should have been fixed a long time ago. Since 2008, really. Oh, and I suppose our wingers going to shit can't really be blamed on Ferguson or Moyes, or on age. Our flanks need replacing asap.
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I really really really think that if we managed to get a couple of MF who can link play and put decent forward moving balls to our wingers their play will improve dramatically. Unfortunately when they get the ball now it's generally from a static position or well infront of the fullback. It makes it very hard to beat the man and play a ball in so as this goes on confidence is down. If we had someone who could ping balls to Valancia/Nani the way Scholes used to drive them to Beckham they will soon start performing again. When that happens we will start stretching teams again and they won't be able to press us like they are now.

CM's and a LB and I'll be one happy camper.
 
Cina said:
I'm not sure you can say it's underrated anymore. It's an absolute mess.

Take Carrick and RvP and/or Rooney away (which is what has happened to us in the last few games) and it's not good enough or a club of our stature.
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You're overreacting to some terrible months under a manager who looks a bit clueless.

We have vidic, Rooney, rvp and Carrick as top players ( Carrick's best a level below bit still). De gea seems to be sure to get there as is Rafael if he can keep fit.

Who do City have? Aguero, kompany and toure? Zabaleta?

There's no team in the premierleague which has many more top players than us and only city's squad is as strong as ours IMO with Chelsea probably slightly inferior.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
You're overreacting to some terrible months under a manager who looks a bit clueless.

We have vidic, Rooney, rvp and Carrick as top players ( Carrick's best a level below bit still). De gea seems to be sure to get there as is Rafael if he can keep fit.

Who do City have? Aguero, kompany and toure? Zabaleta?

There's no team in the premierleague which has many more top players than us and only city's squad is as strong as ours IMO with Chelsea probably slightly inferior.
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Vidic not so much anymore Amol. Sadly we are now in the place we all feared with Carrick over the last few games. We simply cannot perform without him.
 
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