This.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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This.
Football has evolved so much, this is sadly true, and should be the main concern of every supporter - it's not about having a rough patch, or 'being in transition'. It's how we will attract top players if we're languishing mid-table. It didn't work to well this season, even though we're current champions. I wouldn't want to see a team full of mercenaries, but it's too idealistic to think we can just grow our own, as we have in past years. If we do, then we might just have to totally lower our expectations and hopefully enjoy watching an entertaining team who might be trophyless.
That is possible - weren't United the most watched team in any league in their Division One season.
I think this guy has his own agenda for some reason, he has been on Moyes's case for ages. However, first Wenger then Fergie managed to get RVP playing, I presume by changing his training methods. Then Moyes has come in and it appears is over training him, hence the injuries. I can understand RVP being annoyed. Until a player actually comes out and says something we are all guessing.
We have to remember there are now shareholders as well and a reporter on Talksport, didn't think I would listen to it today, said the loss of CL qualification would impact the club. That money probably covers interest payments. If that isn't coming in, bang goes your transfer kitty. If some of the players don't buck up, they can forget the World Cup, but that's the least of our problems.
It looks like Moyes is a ditherer.
Probably, but it was obvious RVP wasn't fit, so I would rather take him of and not risk him being a long term injury.
Manchester United are a bigger club now than when Sir Alex took over, we still have debt and interest payments to make and are on the NYSE, the owners cannot afford to give Moyes the time Sir Alex had.
niMic said: ↑
I'll support the team no matter how poorly it goes, but I won't be quiet about it.
Exactly, the fans have every right to complain. I will always support them but I will moan if they don't deliver good football.
We're in a position where CL money not coming in would not be the end of the world at all. Our finances are ridiculously good.
It would still be significant. We wouldn't end up like Leeds but we'd be shackled in the market and besides CL isn't solely about money.
I can't imagine any other big club letting their manager stay on if they finished 5th or 6th with a new manager after winning the league the season before, it'd be ridiculous.
Possibly not. The situations aren't comparable, though. Show me another club with a manager who had been in place for 26 years, a club built entirely around him and in his image and with a squad of players who have never known anything other than his stewardship. Obviously Moyes is underperforming and obviously finishing there would be a poor performance in an overall sense but it's too easy to just say "league champions" and have that be the end of every discussion. There has been enormous upheaval but had he changed almost nothing people would be slating him for trying to be Fergie-lite.
Not getting into the Champions League will affect the players we can attract and keeping hold of Rooney and RVP. That is the bigger danger to me than just finances.
It's crazy, we haven't been outside the top 3 in over 20 years and now we're sitting in 9th, and everyone is acting like its normal and its to be expected because we're in transition. No other big club would accept falling so far and fast after being champions. Moyes shouldn't be saying things like how we're in transition and it was somehow inevitable. He should be telling the players it is unacceptable.
It's crazy, we haven't been outside the top 3 in over 20 years and now we're sitting in 9th, and everyone is acting like its normal and its to be expected because we're in transition. No other big club would accept falling so far and fast after being champions. Moyes shouldn't be saying things like how we're in transition and it was somehow inevitable. He should be telling the players it is unacceptable.
Who the feck cares? What a terrible point
He wasn't my first choice in the summer but now that we've appointed him he deserves the chance to show what he can do which means being given the summer window to see if he can turn it around.
But you don't give a manager who has managed to have this team outside of CL and whose only signing has been Fellaini a chance to change things and build his own team, if you do it'll be too late to fix it and we'll be recovering from it for years.
Just thinking, I'd imagine any plans to increase capacity of ground will be put on hold for a while. Money needs to be spent on the team, not bums on seats. The quality of the team will dictate the latter.
We should care and we should stop pretending we are so much better than Milans and Bayerns of this world because we let our manager stay even if they struggle massively.
True but it'll be a financial hit nonetheless, it'll leave an impact on our transfer budget and make it difficult to attract the top quality players we need.
I'm sure long term we can recover from it but it'll make moyes's job (if he keeps it) much more difficult than it already is.
He had the summer window and messed it up, he will get January window and then we can see if he picks up. He could do with winning a cup. That will give him some more time.
Maybe Moyes will be happier if he doesn't have to try and attract the big name players, he would be back in his comfort zone then.
I doubt anybody at the club gives a feck. We haven't become the club we have over the last 20 years or so by sacking manager left right and center. We've seen the fruits of perseverance and I expect us to stick with it.
I'd blame Woodward or whoever is incharge of the transfers. He identified LB and CM as 2 areas and the club failed him in that regard seeing us end up with a 27 panic signing who was nowhere near our first choice
That's because we had an incredible manager in place but we wouldn't have got him if we had stuck with Atkinson in the 80s. We cannot expect Moyes to be a Ferguson, it's not like we have had a long term strategy of giving managers plenty of time - it was one off with Fergie. It just lasted for 26 years.
There hasn't been enormous upheaval - at least not beyond staff level. Yeah, he changed the entire coaching staff but apart from that it doesn't look like he brought any fresh ideas. Our already outdated playing style became positively prehistoric, we're not getting results at all in the league and there's been no major rebuilding of the squad either which means we're doing horribly with the same squad that won the league last season.
Top 3 would be good enough. Fourth would be acceptable. Anything below that is a failure and we can't use the excuse that "but we had the same manager for 26 years!" - especially as Fergie was supposed to have left stable foundations for Moyes. He didn't revamp the squad and didn't make the most of those foundations.
I also disagree with noods' insistence that the players aren't good enough. Yes, this is a flawed squad if we're thinking in the context of challenging the best teams in Europe, being in contention for the league AND the CL. But it's entirely good enough to get top three in the Premier League. True, Moyes couldn't count on Van Persie as often as Fergie could (though he played 14 games out of 22 this season) but Rooney's playing much better than he did last season so that should just about even it out. Yes, Fergie also got lucky with Carrick but incredible it may sound, Carrick did miss some games in the last few years and we didn't completely fall to pieces like we did in the last four matches. Moyes also had the entire summer to address our reliance on Carrick and came up with Fellaini who seems to be behind Jones in the pecking order.
Saying that it's all to be expected after Fergie's departure is just the path of least resistance, the easy way out. It looks like the players have the same mindset: Fergie's gone so being totally shit is excusable. It's not.
Aside from central midfield this squad is as good as any and even midfield isn't really THAT bad. Yes, it could do with a signing or two which he has tried to address with Fellaini but it isn't so bad that it cannot handle Cardiff or Newcastle.
An incredible manager who most United fans thought was crap and would have been sacked if they had their way. Atkinson was given 5 years and lots of money to turn the club around and was only sacked when we were in the relegation zone. Sexton before that was sacked only after 4 trophy less seasons. Poor points.
Moyes might not be a Fergie 2.0 but he's a good manager nonetheless and deserves a chance and fortunately will get a chance. Sir Bobby and Sir Alex thankfully have more brain cells than most of you put together
So basically you want him sacked immediately? Because otherwise what's the point in giving him the job and then not backing him. I think the club would have been extraordinarily naive if they didn't at least envisage that this was a possibility. And yet they still hired him. I would hope they now allow him time to at least prove himself one way or the other. If after a couple of seasons it hasn't worked then so be it.
The midfield is crap if we're honest. Fergie got lucky with Carrick's fitness, Moyes hasn't. That's a huge difference.
Ferguson had the history of winning the league and an European trophy with Aberdeen to back his CV up. It was a different era too and he didn't inherit a ready made team of league champions with a working academy that only needed a couple of signings.
I doubt Moyes will stay beyond this season if we don't improve.
When fergie took over we were crap, when moyes took over we were champions, surely a different challenge.
Mourinho behaved like an utter nutcase in his last year at Madrid. They had to go on a completely ridiculous spending spree just to try and appease things and clean up the mess (which they still haven't). He's since gone to Chelsea, spent loads of money, and made them....shite. They're doing bad enough and would have at least 4 points less if it wasn't for two borderline suspicious late pieces of refereeing.
He spent most of the summer publicly attempting to sign a player he never had a chance of signing, pissing off his current best player in the process, who I suspect will leave either in January or during the summer.
The obsession with Mourinho on here was tiring enough before he turned into a fruitcake.
Moyes will be gone before the new year if it continues at the rate it is going. The man looks broken.
Over the two legs we should have beaten them yes. I think that tells you more about how poor Madrid were rather than how good we were (ironically managed by the great Mourinho). It was also the only two games of the season where the players seemed to be at it for the 90 minutes, and even then we had a 15 minute spastic episode.
There's talent there to be doing a lot better than what we are, don't get me wrong, but there's no confidence or belief, and there's also no midfield. The idea that getting rid of Moyes would magically fix either of these problems is panicky and stupid. Whover came in would need as much time as he will, except they'd be starting again, so in six months you'd all be in here whining again.
Theres a key difference between 2004/05 and now, namely many had faith in SAF and it was a minority that was on his back. I feel with Moyes its a bigger percentage because lets be honest what has Moyes done in his career that deserves blind faith? Other than "because SAF picked him"
How many of our players have only known Fergie's stewardship though? Fletcher, Giggs, Welbeck, Cleverely, and Evans perhaps, and even some of them have played elsewhere and done well on loan spells under other managers (I know its a bit different). All our other players have played under other managers, they've not been here for Fergie's entire tenure, or their entire careers.
Moyes had something similar at Everton having been there for 11 years with a squad of players who he bought all of, now performing really well under a new manager who has completely changed the philosophy and style. How much must Moyes way of playing have been drilled into those players, yet they're not struggling because what they're changing to is so clearly defined. What is Moyes trying to achieve here? The transition he speaks of, what is it to? What style is he trying to impose? What identity is he trying to bring here? It's totally unclear and I can't even imagine the players are any clearer on it because they look bereft of ideas. If people could see the beginnings of something starting to take shape I'm sure there would be a bit more patience because it would be easier to see the endgame.
Ferguson will ensure Moyes keeps his job no matter what happens this season. It's tough to believe at the moment, but I still hope Moyes is the final Ferguson masterstroke.
The same guy used to slate Fergie's training methods all the time (ridiculously often in fact), and generally talks complete and utter shite.
Suddenly he criticises Moyes and everyone ignores all this and pretends he's talking sense.
This is the kind of utter feckwittery on here that gets my goat.
Nah, he should get at least until the end of season. If we go on a good run and finish 4th he should get another season because that'd mean he's starting to get things right (right now it's going to require a massive run of form for us to get into the Champions League). If we carry on at this rate though we'll end up 6th or 7th at best and in this case he ought to go.
I doubt anyone at the club expected things to be this bad. We've basically turned into a Fulham level team.
People keep bringing this up, neglecting to take note of the fact that doing well at Everton is not the same as doing well at United. Yes Martinez has come in and shook things up at Everton but let's face it there's feck all pressure to do well there. There's nothing to say that if he came here he'd be able to instill any sort of new "philosophy" or anything at United, he could be doing just as badly as Moyes is, he could do even worse. Moyes has found himself in a rather unique and rather unfortunate situation, there's hardly any parallels or comparisons we can fairly draw.
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